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OverUnity Research > Benches > Peterae Public Bench (Moderator: Peterae) > RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device
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Author Topic: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device  (Read 140194 times)
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img  wattsup
Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #200 on: 2011-06-25, 17:36:47 »
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@Peterae

I have a question. Can your wheel turn on one 9vdc battery, if not two in parallel or in series? If yes put this on the drive coils, run the wheel, then take a capacitor in parallel wit the battery then connect the dc output rail to this also to see what happens. But the most important question is can you use one or two 9vdc batteries to run the wheel without load? Can it last at least 2-3 minutes.

I have almost finished preparing a post on the wheel and ways to give you some more insight into the device and how to work with it.

I will post this here soon. It is kind of long but as of Wednesday I will be on vacation for a week. So I wanted to get things out before then that may be helpful to you and other builders.

wattsup



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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #201 on: 2011-07-02, 08:13:23 »

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Hi DC
I have the Tacho from china but i need to hold it and point it at the reflective strip and hold the test button down to get a live reading, the problem with this is that it's too hard to do other things at the same time, i want to build a tacho i can glue on top and get live readings so i am free enough to try other things.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #202 on: 2011-07-02, 15:46:49 »

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You have to hold the button down to keep it reading constantly, but it's the holding of it as well, i might as well just finish the board i made and knock a bit of software up to do the job and permanently fix it to the motor, time has not been on my side this last couple of weeks unfortunately but i will get there eventually LOL

I think you must have been unlucky with the one you bought otherwise the sellers would be getting bad feedback all the time, they are so cheap for what they are.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #203 on: 2011-07-02, 16:00:48 »

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indeed i am, 8 pin pic, 2 display driver chips, 4 7-Seg displays and use a hall sensor to count up and run a timer to reset to zero every second.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #204 on: 2011-07-02, 16:51:19 »
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@Peter, that sounds cool. Please consider posting details of your PIC counter when done if you get the time. (I use Oshon PIC18Simulator IDE). I have parts to make similar, was going to use it to verify audio square wave frequencies.
 
@DeepCut, I bought the same tach, the downside is as Peter says, you do have to hold it down to get a test.  I used a test strip about 1/4 inch on my drill press to see if the counting worked, seemed to. Have to maintain a perpendicular angle. Wouldn't be too hard to rewire for a hard on/off, I don't think though I haven't opened the case yet.

Does the laser turn on? I am sure the seller would remedy the situation.
 
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #205 on: 2011-07-03, 06:27:39 »

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img  Groundloop
Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #206 on: 2011-07-03, 11:19:06 »
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Quote from: ArtistGuy on 2011-07-02, 16:51:19
@Peter, that sounds cool. Please consider posting details of your PIC counter when done if you get the time. (I use Oshon PIC18Simulator IDE). I have parts to make similar, was going to use it to verify audio square wave frequencies.
 
@DeepCut, I bought the same tach, the downside is as Peter says, you do have to hold it down to get a test.  I used a test strip about 1/4 inch on my drill press to see if the counting worked, seemed to. Have to maintain a perpendicular angle. Wouldn't be too hard to rewire for a hard on/off, I don't think though I haven't opened the case yet.

Does the laser turn on? I am sure the seller would remedy the situation.
 

@ArtistGuy,

Here is a RPM counter I did make.
http://home.no/ufoufoufoufo/RPM.rar

GL.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #207 on: 2011-07-03, 14:24:12 »

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Hi AG
I can certainly post the code and diagram although it uses 2 SM chips and the pcb is a bit hard for anyone who's not good at pcb making.

GL's looks simpler to me  :)
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #208 on: 2011-07-03, 17:11:08 »
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@Groundloop

Thanks for the .rar, that will be fine. Very nice work.

@Peter

Thanks for the offer.

Robert
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #209 on: 2011-07-10, 13:44:57 »

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Well i have been spending some time finally trying to get my rpm counter up and running and have found one of my display chips is damaged, and have just realized i can use a little frequency counter i have and just hook this to the periphery hall this will save me some time which i really dont have much of right now.

so i guess i am almost ready to start some more tests.

So what do you all think would be a good work through of tests, if there's particular things you want tested i will try to make up a video to answer each test.

I have a 1K 25Watt variable resistor i can use as a variable load.

I also now have the 47000uF cap.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #210 on: 2011-07-10, 21:15:33 »

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I have connected all drive coils to the bridges, connected up my 47000uF cap and have the rotor as close as i can without crashing the coils, i am using a 12V 5 Watt bulb for a load.

There are no magnets applied to the washers and i am only driving with the rotor drive coil pair circuit.

Here's a plot of output Power/Input Power or COP taken at 0.5 volt intervals starting at 5V input supply, i maintained the input current to 1 amp throughout the tests.

Also a plot of RPM vs Cop

and a plot of RPM vs Input Volts

From this data we can see a lower RPM is more efficient and in this case around 395 RPM while the RPM is linear against drive voltage

EDIT had to re do the RPM vs Input voltage as the x axis is always in linear steps and this distorted my data
« Last Edit: 2011-07-10, 22:35:08 by Peterae »
   
img  ArtistGuy
Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #211 on: 2011-07-11, 00:53:25 »
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Not meaning to change the subject, but I saw earlier in the thread where you mentioned you nibbled your cores down to 15 mm or so then flat ground them on the belt sander, which is sort of the approach I've been using (via a carbide hacksaw blade first then the sander).

I am wondering just how perfect these cores likely need to be, as sometimes they chip on the edges, and otherwise, won't be within microns of sameness?

Robert (AG)
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #212 on: 2011-07-11, 20:30:59 »

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Hi AG
yeah it was not easy to get them the same, i started with 30 of them and by the end i picked the best but they certainly were not perfect, slightly different lengths and as you say some got slightly chipped.

Now the next round of tests concentrate on 1 gen coil pair, so all the others were disconnected from the bridge with only the 1 set of gen coils connected to the bridge, i still have the 47000uF cap and 12v 5 watt bulb connected for these tests

1) No Bias magnets
Input 12V @ 1.14A = 13.68 Watts
Output 4.25V @ 190mA = 0.8075 Watts
823 RPM
COP = 0.05903

2) Large Bias magnet top & bottom North facing up on both magnets
Input 12V @ 1.14A = 13.68 Watts
Output 4V @ 190mA = 0.76 Watts
Stopped the test @ 3000 RPM
COP = 0.0556

3)Large Bias magnet top & bottom South facing up on both magnets
Input 12V @ 1.1A = 13.2 Watts
Output 3V @ 160mA = 0.48 Watts
522 RPM
COP = 0.03636

Should i bother doing top mag North up bottom magnet South up and vice versa?

Test 1 & Test 2 were comparable to the tests i did yesterday with regard to cop but with increased RPM when the Input was at 12V
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #213 on: 2011-07-11, 21:14:02 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2011-07-11, 20:30:59

Should i bother doing top mag North up bottom magnet South up and vice versa?

Test 1 & Test 2 were comparable to the tests i did yesterday with regard to cop but with increased RPM when the Input was at 12V


Might be handy, for reference's sake, if not too much trouble. I am surprised that your output wattages seem so low? Is that from just one coil? Or the summation of all? I see where you said you had them all connected. Thanks for posting your results.

I will try and get my cores to within a 1/2 mm or so, belt sander willing (these things break well but don't sand well). I am not sure what kind of saturation or permeability, etc the ones I got have, they were from Lithuania (ebay). Good deal for the quantity though. I got 25, can get 2 per easily, but have broken 3 so far, and washed one then heat treated it in the dryer by accident. Surely that one will be the one to make it all work.  8)

 
   
img  BEP
Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #214 on: 2011-07-11, 21:25:39 »
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Peterae,

When you say 'Bias magnets top and bottom' are you placing the magnets on the drive coils?

If on the gen coils.... I suggest disconnecting the gen coils and not shorting them out. Then, place one set of stator magnets on a gen coil pair and adjust the top/bottom magnets spacing & stator/rotor/stator gaps for lowest drag on the motor coils. There should be a point where the vertical location of the gen coils are roughly in the middle between the rotor magnet field and the bias magnet field where drag and cogging is minimal.

I wouldn't worry about peaking voltage output at this point. Just minimize the drag on the motor coils.

I will continue with mine. Serious family matters right now  :(

BTW: I used a diamond circular saw on my Dremmel to cut cores. No sanding needed.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #215 on: 2011-07-11, 21:32:18 »

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AG
Not sure if you had seen my post about my cores but they came from UK Farnell 3C90 ferrite.
http://uk.farnell.com/ferroxcube/rod6-20-3c90/ferrite-rod-20x6mm/dp/1784209
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #216 on: 2011-07-11, 21:38:50 »

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No magnets on the drive coils just one set of gen coils, i am placing just how Rom did, that is on the metal washer on the top & bottom of the stator plates.

If i have no load at all on the gen coils then my rotor speed max's out, although i guess i could turn down the input volts real low maybe 3v or so.

What config of the bias magnets are you referring to North up or South up, you can see the difference in the above tests.

Tell me, i have a list of things to deal with at home and at work, trying to do the house up, i work 6 days a week, with Monday off and cannot wait to go back to work Tuesday for a rest  :)
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #217 on: 2011-07-11, 21:55:30 »

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I should be taking scope shots as well thinking about it, i add some tomorrow
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #218 on: 2011-07-11, 23:57:50 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2011-07-11, 21:32:18
:)

AG
Not sure if you had seen my post about my cores but they came from UK Farnell 3C90 ferrite.
http://uk.farnell.com/ferroxcube/rod6-20-3c90/ferrite-rod-20x6mm/dp/1784209

Saw that, thanks. Did not know of them until too late. Will keep that for reference.

@WaveWatcher

Dremel diamond wheel...set up as a mini-tablesaw complete with mini-miter should do the trick speedily. I'll order a set from ebay.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #219 on: 2011-07-12, 02:20:00 »
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Just make sure everything is rock-solid for the cut and take it slow.

« Last Edit: 2011-07-12, 04:28:03 by WaveWatcher »
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #220 on: 2011-07-19, 19:27:19 »

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OK i have just fallen in love with a chip only been going out with it for 10 minuets LOL, the MRS will have to go in the morning.  :)

The UGN3503 no wonder they discontinued this little baby glad i had some in stock, although i guess it may have been superseded, bandwidth 23kHz self biased midway for 0 Gauss, with a supply voltage of 6 volts we have a calibrated range of +/- 900 Gauss and 1.3mv/G

So here i have attached the UGN to the top of my main drive coil core on the top, i have used a periphery hall to pulse me at TDC of the drive coil to give me a position of the magnetic field in relation to the center of the drive coil, Green trace is periphery and yellow is the UGN

So here's the result

I have adjusted the hall previously so it's 0G point is mid vertical axis and in the resulting waveform the bottom of the trace is at 0G the UGN scope channel is on 1V per div and as the UGN is calibrated for 1.3mv/G i am getting a swing of between 0 and 1.37V on the scope so therefore the top of my drive coils core is seeing a swing from 0G to 1000G oops looks like i am getting more out of this chip than the datasheet says, or it may well be the calibration is out slightly as the datasheet does say between 0.75 and 1.75mv/G.

Anyway i can see clearly now what magnetism i have on my cores


So i now know i am not seeing any pole shifting on my drive coil

EDIT i am not using the periphery hall to drive the coil transistor only as a marker,i am using the drive coil pair that's triggered from the rotor magnets.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #221 on: 2011-07-19, 19:32:12 »

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one other thing the green trace appears to show when my drive transistor is switched on because there's a slight voltage drop on the rail when the coils are switched on, well i think that's what it is anyway.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #222 on: 2011-07-19, 20:02:45 »

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OK so now i am confused.

I have attached a scope shot of the UGN above a loaded gen coil and i still get the sameish waveform and amplitude of Gauss swing, i have used the spare hall to also mark TDC of the gen coil, now the phase of the magnetic field is not TDC from the magnet/core position, but the weird thing is the amplitude of the magnetic field does not change if i unload the coil, so i will say this again why is the magnetic field in a loaded coil and unloaded coil exactly the same.?

Surely loading a core should use the magnetic field up as it's converted to energy within the coil

EDIT i did not really mean use up and should have said loaded.
« Last Edit: 2011-07-19, 20:50:07 by Peterae »
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #223 on: 2011-07-19, 20:06:19 »

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It also looks like i am getting a slight pole shift from my center line on the gen coil as well because the bottom of the UGN waveform is below my center line on the scope, although i did not check the zero G point before the test, i assumed it should not have altered from the previous test.

The interesting thing about the amplitude, just to confirm if i pull the hall away from the core just slightly it's amplitude does lower so i know i am scoping whats there and there's no sign of clipping i would expect if i was over driving the UGN with a too strong magnetic field.Basically i am saying the UGN seems to be plotting exactly what it is seeing.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #224 on: 2011-07-19, 21:28:44 »
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Not quite TDC, no apparent 'using-up' of the magnetic field, no expected 'reversal'.....

Kinda interesting, isn't it?

I'll add a similar sensor to mine and add that to the list.

Thanks Peterae!
   
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