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OverUnity Research > Benches > Peterae Public Bench (Moderator: Peterae) > RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device
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Author Topic: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device  (Read 140214 times)
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #150 on: 2011-06-17, 12:33:19 »

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Oh Crap here we go

Post by Romero
Quote from: woopy on June 16, 2011, 05:01:36 PM

    Hi Romero

    just a quick question

    Is it possible that on the rotor, you use a pair of magnets  in opposition to get a "kind of super pole"  with the same pole outside ? yes or no ?

    If yes it could explain why the magnet get something out of the 12 mm thick rotor on the pix we have seen on the other thread (and i remember you spoke of adding magnet on top of each other but you did not say how.

    If yes in this case there is no more a Muller divice and it works completely differently.

    Thank's and good luck for your next project for me i go on testing and learning and it is a lot of fun

    Laurent

that was a mistake I made, realised after a while.I changed rotors and everything so many times and I forgot. The rotor was 12mm and because the 10mm magnet was too small I added a 5mm magnet, so total magnet lenght was 15mm



Then


Quote from: neptune on June 16, 2011, 05:25:08 PM

    @Romerouk . Many thanks for answering some of my questions .And woopy`s question . Referring to Woop`s question , can you confirm that when you added the 5mm magnets on the rotor , you added them in attraction and not in repel mode . Thanks .

attraction is what i used mainly for one of the driver coils that used the side magnets to trigger.the other one having the hall on top used attraction too but a bit of replusion at the same time.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #151 on: 2011-06-17, 12:43:47 »

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My RPM counter just arrived, i am amazed it's in a nice blue case, comes with battery and a length of sticky reflection strip, nothing to test it with but if i move my hand in front of it and hold the Test button it does read something that changes, cant wait to try it now  :)
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #152 on: 2011-06-17, 13:28:27 »

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Here's Romero's scope shot of a single coil
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #153 on: 2011-06-17, 13:31:38 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2011-06-17, 11:44:00
OK here it is The First run up of my Romero Muller Variant Replication where Mr Lenz pays a visit  ;D
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GML2DtbwsmY

Congratulations, Peterae. Great work. Even though I consider that there is no way to get free energy from such setups, nevertheless it is instructive to build one for an educational perspective, and it is not accessible to anyone but to skilful experimenters.

Mr Lenz will always be there because the reason for the motor to rotate is strictly the same as the reason for Lenz's law to work. Varying current that generates varying field, and varying field that induces varying current, are the two sides of the same equation. Some people imagine that there would be a delayed effect from one onto the other, making a not symmetrical relation. This is not exact. A varying magnetic field is generated first just around the conductor and then it expands. In fact it is even generated immediately around accelarated charges. The phenomenon is completely local, due to the charges reacting with their own field when accelerated.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #154 on: 2011-06-17, 13:33:17 »

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So i guess the question is, what would cause the flat area i have circled in red,my scope shot does not have this, is it because my coil is not loaded
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #155 on: 2011-06-17, 13:45:08 »
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That flat area is where the rotor and stator magnets are at or near axial alignment and the NET changing radial magnetic field on the coil is near zero.

This is the result of two opposing and tightly compressed magnetic fields. Such a situation creates a radial magnetic field (the term 'virtual' was used by EM) between the opposing poles. When both poles are South then the center of the radial field will be South and the outer periphery North. When that virtual, radial field is centered vertically on a coil there will be no Faraday induction in that coil.

I would also think that IF that area also contained an electric charge Lorentz would take over. I think that is a long-shot speculation here but would certainly happen in plasma.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #156 on: 2011-06-17, 14:21:13 »
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@Peterae

Great videos. Thanks.

Yes That quote from Romero I saw last night.

All scope shots so far that are on one generator coil all have the second coil of the pair still connected. We need to see a scope shot but on only one generator coil without anything else on it and without a load. No series, no nothing. This is very important to see that single coil sine wave. Actually once on the top gen coil (CH.A) and on the bottom gen coil (CH.B) to compare.

Also, whenever you get the chance, try your drive coil pair by adding another coil or the primary or the secondary of a transformer (having the same mH range) in series with the two drive coils but on the side that does not receive the pulse. I am confident this should increase speed and strength of rotation because the impulse should reach further into the drive coils. This third coil does not have to be on the unit.

The drag, what to say about the drag but that it is real. This will be the next big puzzle to figure out why Romero showed no drag. It has to do with sensor positions. Eventually you will have to start and stop the wheel, checking the zero to full rpm acceleration time of the rotor. The sensor placement that will provide the least time to full acceleration will be the benchmark for proper sensor placement. This is so because the faster rpm rise will mean that at all levels of acceleration will lead quickly to full rpm and once the drag starts, the rpm will go down but will want to go back up as fast as possible instead of lagging around that slower rpm. Maybe increase the rotor to coil gap some more as well.

wattsup

Added: Just saw your last post. Seems to me the flat area is simply the time there is no magnetic influence on the coil coinciding with the inter rotor magnet open spaces. This should show as zero area of the sine wave which is does.


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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #157 on: 2011-06-17, 14:51:13 »

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Thanks guys

Things to try tonight then.
Scope top and bottom coils on 2 Chan's of scope totally disconnected, although the scope will offcourse connect one side of the coils together with the scopes earth leads.

I will also scope coils without magnets, with half size magnet and full size magnets to see what the difference this makes to the waveform.

Now we know that Romero did also add 5mm magnets to his 10mm magnets my rotor setup is so wrong, my magnets are 2/3 of the height they should be and hence not as strong, it's not easy for me to alter this as i glued the magnets into the rotor, i could dice with death and try supergluing 5mm ones on top of the existing magnets.

WW thanks for the explanation so what do i need to do to elongate my flat area, it will be interesting to see how the added magnets alter this part of the waveform.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #158 on: 2011-06-17, 17:07:09 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2011-06-17, 14:51:13
Thanks guys

Things to try tonight then.
Scope top and bottom coils on 2 Chan's of scope totally disconnected, although the scope will offcourse connect one side of the coils together with the scopes earth leads.

I will also scope coils without magnets, with half size magnet and full size magnets to see what the difference this makes to the waveform.

Now we know that Romero did also add 5mm magnets to his 10mm magnets my rotor setup is so wrong, my magnets are 2/3 of the height they should be and hence not as strong, it's not easy for me to alter this as i glued the magnets into the rotor, i could dice with death and try supergluing 5mm ones on top of the existing magnets.

WW thanks for the explanation so what do i need to do to elongate my flat area, it will be interesting to see how the added magnets alter this part of the waveform.

@Peterae

Yes but at least they will not be on the FWBR as a loop. When scoping the generator coils individually, also remember to change the wires around so you can try and match the waveform rise.

What will be good to know is the actual individual coil waveform, if the top and bottom can match perfectly depending on how they are connected to the scope, to finally see if the FWBR is in fact required or not. Since if each coil receives one field on off, it should generally only make one half a waveform and not two halves. So each coil should already be producing only DC. It is only when they are in series in opposing connection mode that they should produce AC. So if the coils only produce DC from one side of the magnet, why then pair them to produce AC to only then have to put them through a FWBR. This was one of the questions I had from the beginning that did not make any sense.

Also, I could not see close enough in your video if your FWBRs have the additional four diodes across them. Can this play against drag, don't know.

wattsup


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img  e2matrix
Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #159 on: 2011-06-17, 17:26:29 »
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Hi Peterae,  Have you seen this diagram from OU?  It seems someone confirmed with the correct hookup of the coils that Lenz's law is largely avoided.  Diagram A is the one you want
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #160 on: 2011-06-17, 17:31:25 »

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I see what you are saying wattsup, i will give it a scope shortly ;)

Thanks e2 no i hadn't seen this, i will check and see which i have and try A  O0
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #161 on: 2011-06-17, 17:32:47 »

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Quote from: e2matrix on 2011-06-17, 17:26:29
Hi Peterae,  Have you seen this diagram from OU?  It seems someone confirmed with the correct hookup of the coils that Lenz's law is largely avoided.  Diagram A is the one you want

That may be Lenz-free, but that would imply no net emf is generated either, which means no output power.

No?

.99


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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #162 on: 2011-06-17, 18:02:37 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2011-06-17, 17:32:47
That may be Lenz-free, but that would imply no net emf is generated either, which means no output power.

No?

.99

Agreed.

I think 'A' is going too far. 'B' should be correct.

Peterae,

My opinion:

I have doubts about the provided scope shot. If the generator coils work as I believe, the majority of their output will be pulsed DC. I suspect he had his scope set for AC input.
I would tune for a maximum width of that flat area. The wider it is the less cogging.

The rotor magnets do not induce generator output. When they pass between the coils they cancel coil output.

It is the returning connection between stator magnets that induce useful generator output.

Going by your scope shots I would say there is not enough balance between the stator and rotor magnets. Before you add magnets to the rotor I would decrease the strength of the stator magnets by adding plastic washers between the stator magnets and their metal washers.

I would also disable all but one generator coil by disconnecting them from the FWBR. Concentrate on one set of coils for adjustments to get a feel for what is going on.

Use the PEAK current of the motor coils as your guide (NOT RMS, Average or anything else). Go for a minimum peak current.

Like I said several times before: This IS NOT a common motor or generator.

Mine is quite a bit older and looks very different but the radial fields, cancellation and generating only from the reconnecting fields works.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #163 on: 2011-06-17, 18:22:41 »

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Thanks WW i will try to work through the single coil measurements, so if i put say a 10 Ohm resistor straight across the coil and scope this or even maybe 1k

@wattsup each coil is AC see below waveform

OK below we have

1)big magnet top and bottom versus middle magnet top and bottom (big magnet is red trace)

2)big magnet versus no magnet (big magnet is red trace)

3) top coil separated and not connected vs bottom coil separated and not connected

All measurements taken using DC probe settings

EDIT the RPM meter works well, i got up to 2700 RPM, i have moved the cap to being connected all the time and just switch the bulbs in and out for the moment
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #164 on: 2011-06-17, 18:45:23 »

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OK the scope shot that shows top and bottom coils if i reverse one connection then they match and are duplicates of each other, so as Poynt says they would cancel out each other in connection A above

EDIT one thing that makes the flat massive is speed of rotation but it does affect the peak sharpness as well, i always wondered how his motor gets up to speed real fast,I think it's because he's not running at high RPM

I just tried turning the magnet on top of the coil upside down and all that does is give less amplitude on the coils output

By adjusting the gap between the top coil and rotor magnet and bottom coil and rotor magnet and scoping each coil i can accurately adjust by matching the amplitude of each waveform
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #165 on: 2011-06-17, 18:51:16 »
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You should try different resistance values during the single coil tests but adjust stator/rotor/stator magnetic force balance for widest flat/zero time on each cycle then decrease resistance until you are at or below 5 Ohms. -repeat.

When the coils are powering a load there should be more adjustments to make since the coil field will effect the balance between rotor/stator magnets.

The best target should be to shift all possible Lenz effects to right angles to the rotor rotation or same axis as the rotor shaft.

If all that works and you are powering a reasonable load (probably long before you see anything extraordinary) look for effects from a torsion at right angles to the shaft and the rotation (possibly 'twisting' at each rotor magnet). With that lightweight rotor disk you may start hearing magnet to core contact.

I doubt you need to run more than several hundred RPM, once it is all working smoothly.

I need to think about the AC vs. DC. Maybe this generator isn't as close as I thought to what I'm familiar with.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #166 on: 2011-06-17, 18:58:03 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2011-06-17, 18:45:23
I just tried turning the magnet on top of the coil upside down and all that does is give less amplitude on the coils output

Yes, it should. It should also increase the time on the flat area of the waveform. That flat-time is more important.

Quote
By adjusting the gap between the top coil and rotor magnet and bottom coil and rotor magnet and scoping each coil i can accurately adjust by matching the amplitude of each waveform

Yes, a good way to adjust balance but not generator output.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #167 on: 2011-06-17, 19:05:08 »
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Ok, I'm talking too much  :(

My best advice is work with one coil set to see what is happening and shoot for a wider flat-time. Then, work on the one after it. When both seem the same with a wider flat area..... run both adjacent sets... then a third. By then you should be seeing what I'm talking about and know more about this thing than any other replicator.
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #168 on: 2011-06-17, 19:20:36 »

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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011-06-17, 19:05:08
OK, I'm talking too much  :(

No No not at all, very much appreciate your input, thankyou for putting some hard earned time in as usuall  O0
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #169 on: 2011-06-17, 20:19:58 »
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While I was starting 'spew', as I have accused other of, that wasn't the reason.

My boss read my screen when I left to grab another cup of java. He said I was talking about company owned intellectual property  :o

I don't associate the words 'intellectual property' with anything or anyone I have worked with to-date in this assignment  ;D
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #170 on: 2011-06-17, 20:39:09 »

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Oh man be carefull, we don't want your hobby to cause work trouble.

PS i just had a TIP42 Burn  >:(
   
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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #171 on: 2011-06-17, 23:42:53 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Peter,

I just compared the audio tone of yours and Romero's motors, and just by ear I'd say yours is running 3 to 5 times the RPM.

.99


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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #172 on: 2011-06-17, 23:54:15 »
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@Peterae

On the 2nd video I grabbed an image of the top most view of the Romero wheel. On that I applied a layer with a wheel showing 360 degrees. To my surprise, the D22 Sensor (Top) and the D11 Sensor (bottom) center align to the zero and 180 degrees, meaning they are in a straight line through the wheel shaft. I could be off by 1 degree but not that much more. This may simplify your finding the best sensor points.  

wattsup

added:

Forgot to mention, thanks for the waveforms. I am stunned to see that waveform on a single coil. Each coils produces AC, then pair AC, then rectified DC on a rail. Hmmmm.

On your drive coils, if the pulse is entering the top drive coil on one pair, then try sending the pulse to the second drive coil pair from the bottom. This may equalize the applied motive force.

Ultimately, any formal variable testing will require that all components be turned to the other coil orientation, since if any of these are out of sync, it may be difficult to compensate via other components.


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Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #173 on: 2011-06-18, 00:29:49 »
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More, before I do some other works.

Regarding the sensor adjustments, just scope each Sensor A and B at the same time and adjust the sensors so both activations happen at the same time. This will be your closest base. I think his wheel runs smoother because the impulse is happening at the same time, whereas if you had two impulses, on after the other, this would be conducive to a more erratic rotation. Also, if they are activated at the same time, then when it sees the drag reduction, this will also happen at the same time on each sensor so they respond at the same time to counter it.

If the sensors are activated each at a given time, then during slow down because of drag, if the impulses cannot happen at the right times, it will lose momentum and want to die off.

Best of hunting the right mix.

wattsup

Added:

One last last thing. When you load the bulb and see it cogs, take the bulbs off and contact them directly to either a single coil pair before the FWBRs, a coil, or these but with one diode or two or any fewer number of generator pairs, etc.  This will at least show you how much the present rotor/sensor/drive can take.



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img  chrisC
Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #174 on: 2011-06-18, 01:43:18 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2011-06-17, 18:22:41
Thanks WW i will try to work through the single coil measurements, so if i put say a 10 Ohm resistor straight across the coil and scope this or even maybe 1k

@wattsup each coil is AC see below waveform

OK below we have

1)big magnet top and bottom versus middle magnet top and bottom (big magnet is red trace)

2)big magnet versus no magnet (big magnet is red trace)

3) top coil separated and not connected vs bottom coil separated and not connected

All measurements taken using DC probe settings

EDIT the RPM meter works well, i got up to 2700 RPM, i have moved the cap to being connected all the time and just switch the bulbs in and out for the moment

Pete:
Thanks for posting those screen shots. What is interesting is on your last pic. (3). When you combine them and phase shift (90 degrees) you have exactly what Romero's screen shot is! So, there is no BS in what he was saying. Phase shift the Voltage and Current and you're getting closer.

cheers
chrisC
   
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