RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device

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Author Topic: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device (Read 140213 times)

giantkiller	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #125 on: 2011-06-15, 22:48:03 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1593 Frequency equals matter...	Quote Quote This void combined with the rotating pulses cause the ether to spiral. The spiraling ether interacts with the metal of the copper toroid along with the vertical direction pulse from the top coil. This cause the ether to not only spiral round in a circle as viewed from above but also to corkscrew along the path of the toroid windings. The corkscrewing path of the ether around the toroid is now in line with the windings. This creates a longitudinal wave along the copper creating a large current effect in the toroid windings. Which is what is needed. I don't see an easy way to do this, at the moment. Would not the aether be compelled or attracted to the toroidal field? Then the travel angle would continuously cut the cage windings. Looking from above we would see the spiral pattern similar to a spining spiral arm galaxy only at high speed / generated rpm. As above so below. --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

Grumpy	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #126 on: 2011-06-15, 23:17:29 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: giantkiller on 2011-06-15, 22:48:03 Would not the aether be compelled or attracted to the toroidal field? Then the travel angle would continuously cut the cage windings. Looking from above we would see the spiral pattern similar to a spining spiral arm galaxy only at high speed / generated rpm. As above so below. My understanding is that you have to get the aether stuff to flow along the wire to induce current, not across it like a magnetic field. I don't see an easy way to do this with coils mounted vertically. The spherics tetrahedral device used a geometrical combination of electrical pulses to achieve this by apply a force to the aether in two directions at the same time. Vaenderen indicated that electrical pulses or divergent (or) convergent currents are required to move the aether. For it to enhance a solenoid coil, it has to swirl around the coil along the wire.

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #127 on: 2011-06-16, 08:57:48 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	I managed to get the last 5 gen coils wound this morning, some more wiring yet then balance everything. One thing sticks out is that with 1 push of the hand the rotor keeps turning very easily without power, it jerks as each magnet hits a core, but overall it seems to balance and make it turn easily for a little while.

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #128 on: 2011-06-16, 11:04:48 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	The cores i used in the end were type 25-3C90 I nibbled the length down to about 15mm and then held the end against a belt sander for a while, did the job pretty well, i wouldn't say they were perfect but good enough. 14p each core i ordered 30 and broke about 8 LOL, the only trouble with Farnell in the UK is the min order had to be £20.00 http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=1784215 And just for EM The cores are high saturation and in the words from Ferroxcube are best for the storage of energy and Low power loss and ideal for usage under 150kHz

wattsup	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #129 on: 2011-06-16, 15:24:56 »
Hero Member Posts: 520	@Peterae Here is a looped animation of when the rotor dances between the attraction and repulsion before he gives it a whirl by hand. The bottom coil is drive D11 (located closest to the output on/off switch), and the top coil is drive D22. This animation holds the key to how the sensors versus rotor magnet diameter versus edge magnet diameter versus drive coil diameter are inter-related when there is not enough forward momentum to push the rotor into full clockwise rotation. The best analogy I can give this is a magnetic two-step crank or ratchet or even in some way a sling-shot. If the file size of this animation is too big to post here, I have put it also on my ftp site located here; http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Wattsups%27%20stuff/romero/ Some other questions; 1: For the drive coils, I know its late but maybe it would have been good to wind them with a center tap. 2: Has anyone every calculated what all the FWBR's cost in energy loss not forgetting they are top loaded as well with more diodes. 3: Has anyone identified the capacitor he used in video 2. Seems to me like BHC 47000uF 25 vdc. wattsup ------------------------ RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device oscillation.gif (481.3 kB, 282x541 - viewed 890 times.) --------------------------- http://etherimpress.com

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #130 on: 2011-06-16, 15:41:13 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Thanks for the animation Your No 3 is dead on 47000uF 25V from what Romero said.

wattsup	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #131 on: 2011-06-16, 18:40:14 »
Hero Member Posts: 520	OK so 47000uF charged to 12 vdc will last how long if pulsing only the drive coils at the best known frequency? Do we know the rpm of his wheel in the 2nd video? Can someone calculate this with the 300 turns drive coils he is using? 47000uF is still alot of energy. Supply a pulse at least for 1000 rpm mean 8 pulses per rpm per drive coil pair? --------------------------- http://etherimpress.com

e2matrix	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #132 on: 2011-06-16, 19:29:38 »
Sr. Member Posts: 345	wattsup, I've seen someone else mention the center tap idea. Not too late here but what will be the advantage of having a center tap?

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #133 on: 2011-06-16, 19:56:22 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Hi Wattsup If i trigger a hall with a magnet and watch the current on my meter i can draw 3.25 Amps @12V but cannot remember which coil that was, so would need to test each driver to answer accurately, but that should give you an idea

Allcanadian	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #134 on: 2011-06-16, 20:13:57 »
Hero Member Posts: 2735	@wattsup Quote 2: Has anyone every calculated what all the FWBR's cost in energy loss not forgetting they are top loaded as well with more diodes. I would consider it more of a measure of savings rather than losses because any current below a given potential is simply wasted. For example I have one water line #1 at low pressure and high volume and another line #2 at high pressure and low volume. Most of the energy from line #1 dissipates due to the large frictional forces due to the large volume of flow where line #2 at high pressure and low volume losses very little energy. Therefore if we have a current flow which transitions from low pressure to high pressure we may as well just block the low pressure flow because it will simply dissipate most of its energy as losses. Why would we continue to pay for something as work when we know as a fact we will never receive most of what we paid for? it makes no sense yet this is exactly what we always do. Regards AC --------------------------- Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #135 on: 2011-06-16, 21:16:43 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	First run up tonight. No magnets on the washers, i need to work out the polarity. I have not found the nerve to let this finish revving up either, even with shields up It certainly makes enough noise. I can defiantly generate enough power to light 2 10Watt 12V bulbs when i switch on the output but right now Lenz rules and it slows down under load. Scares the crap out of me without a rev counter not knowing if i am over stressing the perspex and i am meant to tune this under load GULP

BEP	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #136 on: 2011-06-16, 21:20:10 »
Group: Guest	'Defiantly' or 'definitely' ? Got your armor plated undershorts on?

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #137 on: 2011-06-16, 21:33:35 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	OOOPPS Definitely definitely Better look on EBay for armour

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #138 on: 2011-06-16, 22:07:26 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	One other thing my Average current consumption is about 2 Amps, if i remember Romero's was under 1 Amp, so i guess i have used wire that's to thick and hence not enough turns, this could be a real problem rewinding them as i glued the bobbins to the perspex so would need to unwire the top and bottom and take the rotor out and unwind and rewind in position, but before i do this i will try tuning things with the magnets on the washers and see if i can get the RPM's constant with a load.

wattsup	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #139 on: 2011-06-17, 00:52:49 »
Hero Member Posts: 520	@Peterae If you are getting to much drag, you may have to increase the gap between the rotor and the coils. Romero has a good 3/8" which is inordinately gappy and one sides gap was not identical to the other. Maybe start by seeing how far you can be and still turn the rotor with the drive coils. wattsup --------------------------- http://etherimpress.com

BEP	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #140 on: 2011-06-17, 01:02:55 »
Group: Guest	I suggest: 1. Connect your scope to display frequency then divide by 60 for RPM. 2. Try to get the current down with magnets and spacing adjustments before rewinding. Make generator/magnet adjustments one at a time (open circuit on all the rest of the coils - short circuit the coil under adjustment) and while the rotor is driven with a separate motor. 3. Use the motor coils (one at a time) and adjust the Hall positions for max RPM at a fixed zero-peak current. In that order Of course, there will be a lot of interaction going on so you may be a 'master tuner' by the time you're done.

Room3327	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #141 on: 2011-06-17, 01:31:55 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 568	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011-06-17, 01:02:55 I suggest: 1. Connect your scope to display frequency then divide by 60 for RPM. I believe you meant to say multiply the frequency by 60 for RPM. --------------------------- "Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material" Nicola Tesla "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." Edmund Burke

BEP	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #142 on: 2011-06-17, 03:05:21 »
Group: Guest	Thanks. Yes, I did. I'm used to knowing the RPM while looking at vibration FFT's

wattsup	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #143 on: 2011-06-17, 05:58:38 »
Hero Member Posts: 520	@Peterae What is Romeros rotor diameter and magnet diameter? Are they any different from yours? The rotor and magnet diameters will play heavily on if this will work or not, or if you should use 8 or more or less magnets and 9 or more or less coils. I will explain. The function will be the minimal distance between each magnet, versus the drive coil diameter, versus the sensor position. If the wheel diameter is too great, the 8 magnets will be too far away from each other to work since between attraction distances of the drive coils and the activation sensors, there is a limited window of opportunity and all components have to be in a physical range for activation. OK, in my previous posts I indicate one coil attraction and one coil repulsion. The animation I made will prove otherwise and show it is attraction/attraction as Romero just posted and as he says, there is some repulsion but not on the D22 as I was indicating. Here is what is happening. D22 is the drive coils with the sensor on the edge placed after the drive coils in clockwise direction. As the magnet passes through D22, it reaches the other side and activates the pulse that makes the coil go into attraction mode and this attraction pulls in the next magnet to its left. Son of a gun. So the magnet passes through the drive while it is de-energized and hits the sensor yelling "hey, grab the next guy will y'a". Also, I figured out why there is so much distance between the rotor magnets and the coils. Romero needed this distance to catch the next magnet sooner. We equate distance between magnet and coil as being the closer the better, but actually, in attraction, the field further out will create the inwards gesture to the next magnet while it is further out. To close and the edge field of the magnet will not be well positioned to pull something in. Also, with a good gap, you will also have a zone nearer to the magnet that will have less attraction, right around where the sensor is and where the magnet just wants to leave the area so the next magnet is attracted but can then pass through. D11 coil is the drive coil that has the sensor on top. As the magnet enters the sensor zone, the drive creates another attraction that again pulls in the magnet closer and pushes out the D22 magnet to leave its sensor zone. As the D11 magnet gets to its sensor off position just under the drive coil, D22 activates again and pulls its next magnet inwards again and the cycle repeats. What will eventually be required is a wheel diameter to magnet/coil diameter ratio where you will be able to build any sized wheel device. The gap between the rotor and the coils is very important. wattsup --------------------------- http://etherimpress.com

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #144 on: 2011-06-17, 08:50:23 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Thanks for you help guys, i shall need plenty more, not quiet ready for tuning yet WW but will need some help here soon, great idea with the scope, i would also need to divide by 8 as the magnets pass 8 times per rev or just multiply by 7.5 Wattsup i am using the same rotor diameter and magnet diameter as Romero and also same magnet and coil number and spacing. Rotor Magnets are 2cm by 1cm height south pole facing up. Rotor Diameter is 25cm using 1cm thick Perspex. Now something else i can confirm the added magnets are indeed all north facing up, and there needs to be only 1 big magnet on one selected coil, the reason is it biases the start position of the rotor, if i place magnets south up then the rotor starts in a position that does not allow a magnet near the rotor hall and hence you don't get any trigger at power on and don't get the rocking back and forward, but with the magnets north up and the bigger magnets on the correct coil pair the rotor rocks back and forward as both halls fire one after the other rocking the rotor back and forth. Mr Lenz still visits me with the magnets in position still next i will roll the scope out and see what i have on the gen coils, i am all wired up so all gen coils are connected up, at the moment i have the cap after the switch, so when i switch on the load i also switch on the cap or to put it another way i have the cap across the load, i am using a 33000uF cap, dont have the 47000uF, i am wondering if i can get away with adding more caps in parallel to make up to 47000uF. When i get to work i will upload some pictures and 2 videos of it running. « Last Edit: 2011-06-17, 09:34:43 by Peterae »

BEP	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #145 on: 2011-06-17, 11:12:49 »
Group: Guest	Peterae, I'm quite sure that the net changing magnetic field on each half coil should be near zero. This would require a balance of flux density between the fixed and rotor magnet. Since the coil will see a changing flux density from the rotor and fixed magnets, as the rotor magnet approaches, the adjustments would mainly be centering that net null field in the coil. One way to skin Lenz is to change the situation so no induction can occur. In this case, you see a scope peak just as the rotor magnet approaches, the signal flat-lines as the balance between changing flux densities is met and then there is a small reverse peak as the rotor magnet leaves the coil. The rotor magnets don't induce the generator current ( not directly ). The stator magnets do as they reconnect to each other

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #146 on: 2011-06-17, 11:14:23 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Just uploading 2 videos now Here's a snap from the video showing a scope shot across one of the top coils at high rpm Also a pic of the top and edge hall, Note i have not gone out of my way to set the positions of these yet, just had a little tug and move to get it running ------------------------ RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device Rom Rep 1.0 top coil.jpg (56.96 kB, 600x473 - viewed 895 times.) RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device TopHall104.jpg (75.91 kB, 800x600 - viewed 882 times.) RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device Edge Hall 104.jpg (60.94 kB, 800x600 - viewed 854 times.)

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #147 on: 2011-06-17, 11:30:24 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	I am wondering if i have the coils connected correctly now , this is from the second video where i scope across the bridge input without a load, i just moved one scope clip from the coil common connection to the other wire on the bridge input EDIT I didn't take note of the volts/div or the timebase setting, i wouldn't believe the frequency readout on the scope, i was hoping i could get the volts/div off the video but the reflection seems to stop this, i think the first video was 2v/div but hang on i also forgot to check the probe setting 1 or 10 so any values on the scope could be wrong so i will need to confirm the true settings when i get home. ------------------------ RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device Rom Rep 1.0 top and bottom coil across bridge.jpg (63.68 kB, 657x512 - viewed 839 times.)

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #148 on: 2011-06-17, 11:44:00 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	OK here it is The First run up of my Romero Muller Variant Replication where Mr Lenz pays a visit Scope is across a top coil only that is in series with the bottom coil and connected to the bridge with all other coils, but without the bulb load switched on. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GML2DtbwsmY[/youtube]

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #149 on: 2011-06-17, 12:06:44 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Video 2 Same as Video 1 but scoping across top & Bottom coils where they connect to the bridge, no load on output of bridge connected. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_AHdz3lfe4[/youtube]

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