PopularFX
Home Help Search Login Register
Welcome,Guest. Please login or register.
2024-11-27, 04:36:10
News: A feature is available which provides a place all members can chat, either publicly or privately.
There is also a "Shout" feature on each page. Only available to members.

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
Author Topic: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device  (Read 140208 times)

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
Not that i should be taking on another project, but this one is hard not to be getting involved in  :)

Parts ordered so far.

FABRICATION 200mm DIA.x 10mm CLEAR ACRYLIC 1.00             £14.85

4 x top & Bottom plates 383mm Dia X 5mm Disc Fl.Blue,Perspex 7t97 Neptune Blue, Fluorescent Acrylic Disc CODE:057T97383DISC   £3.45 each

Magnets Neo 20mm x 10mm x 20off £1.15each,Neo 20mm x 5mm x 10 £6.40 for 10, Neo 3mm x 4mm x 25 £3.60 for 25, Ceramic 20mm x 5mm x 10 £2.46
http://www.shop4tools.co.uk/acatalog/Neodymium_Magnets_Disc_Sphere_Block_Gold_Silver_Magnets.php


Bearings Router * 3 8mm ID, 16mm OD      £2.97 each
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300549195928&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:GB:1123

Bridge Rectifier KBPC606        £6.99 for 10
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160577119255&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:GB:1123

10 x TIP42C TIP42 POWER TRANSISTOR PNP 100V 6A $3.99 for 10
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250545174915

5 pcs A3144 A3144E OH3144E Hall Effect Sensor $2.79
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270744612314

1N4007 DIODES X 50 £1.34
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290567739109

25 Sewing Machine Bobbins $4.99 for 25
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320611626627

18mm & 20mm drill bits Didnt work used Flat wood bit instead
18mm £4.37  20mm £4.58
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Power+Tool+Accessories/HSS+Drill+Bits/HSS+Blacksmith+Drill+Bit+18mm/d80/sd1250/p22649
« Last Edit: 2011-06-02, 21:28:24 by Peterae »
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3217
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Go for it Peter ;)

Thanks for taking on this project!

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
Cheers for the encouragement Darren

Strange really i enjoy building motors/generators, but have not done anything since the window motor by Mike, It makes for a refreshing change.
First i have dropped renovations on my new house to build a bench in my garage  :)  time to have a break from the mundane reality of real life LOL and put just a couple of evenings a week towards this project although i am sure it will be more.

I made some modifications to my Pulse CPU board today and knocked it up on pcb cad, this will work for a turns counter for bobbin winding and will double as a RPM display, i also added 2 of Romerouk s driver pcb boards.

   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
The thing that concerns me is that i am not in a position like Romero to have a large number of scrap PSUs for the ferrite rods, i know that everyone is cutting up ferrite rod, but that could deviate the working parameters enough to crash a replication.

I can lay my hands on 1 core from a psu, so i am now wondering whats involved in scoping the BH curve against a standard ferrite rod, not done any research on this yet so not sure whats involved, then i can try buying new inductors with cores or try cutting standard rod and check the curves are the same.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
Hi Deepcut

Thanks for the info, still not worked out the ferrite yet.

Some are in Dollars because they are Hong Kong, but i have found the post as good if not better than UK post sometimes, i didn't spend to much time looking for bargains, but at a glance my supplier seemed reasonable.

Still waiting for the disc to arrive yet, and building a bench in my garage so i can move my bench press to home.
Once i am setup in a couple of days i will use some old perspex to try drilling the hole for the bearing, once i work the best solution i will let you know, my bearings are 18mm and the magnets are 20mm, I do not have a drills this size, i have been wondering how good a wood borer would do the job


I have loads of these, but i will try it first on an old piece of perspex, if this doesn't work then plan B is to buy the proper sized drill bits.
I also cannot see a problem with using a hole saw, not sure i understand why you are having problems here as they are really just drill bits with the hole saw bolted on, again i would need to test, so in a couple of days i will let you know how it goes and which method i adopted.

The hardest bit is going to be getting a clean hole  C.C


   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
I will still use a drill press to try and keep the hole square as i drill through.

Yeah Clanzer does some amazing builds, that guy should open a museum  ;D

Waiting for loads of parts and none have come so far  >:(
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
Well today i had the rotors arrive, there should have been 4 x 5mm larger discs as they were on special i thought i would use 2 for top and 2 for bottom, only 1 arrived Grrrrr, so they are shipping another 3.

I have the diodes 1n4007 not yet sure wether to use 1N4001 instead, personally i cannot see there being much difference but i will need to do some checks.

I decided to try drilling the 18mm holes and 20mm holes using conventional drill bits, i will test the process on an old piece of perspex, the drill bit's should come in handy anyway, i thought they were pretty cheap for what they are, i got them from tool station and have added them to my parts list on the first post.

The work bench is nearly done.

I've also researched an article about plotting BH curves for the power supply inductor, this way i can be sure to only use cores that Romero used by comparison of the curve.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=865.msg14348#msg14348
« Last Edit: 2011-06-01, 13:55:55 by Peterae »
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
Here's a quote i found on a technical website regarding inductors in a PC PSU

Quote
It is not a ferrite. It is a DC choke, made from powdered iron
I am not sure if this is toroidal or the one we want.

I have been looking at photo's on the net and not yet found a straight inductor, only toroidal forms so far.

I need to try and get my hands on a broken psu to see more closely.

From what i have read so far, it appears very unlikely to be of ferrite composition and much more likely to be of iron composition.

The one on the left is the beast i am after i think.


   

Group: Elite Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1593
Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
No waiting on aisle 5...
Wrap 22awg on a piece of iron garden wire by the visual model of the picture.

Also!
The magnets spinning is not the answer. Nor are spinning the biased coils. There has to be a flux cutting going on in the system. It relates to time. Magnets fields spinning by each other do not give the highest of frequency. Think about this: if you cut the flux or 'Cancel the flux' then on reconnection you have very, and I mean very, very high speed magnetic impulse against a steady state magnetic field. Think about that! Otherwise the system is based on collapse of a coil field. This is slow! You want speed of the highest timing and caliber. And the flux is free! If you want overunity why not start with overunity? How long have the refrigerator magnets been stuck to your refrigerator door? Hello?
For the visual viewers we have a field compressed against an aluminum plate. As the plate spins there is an opening coming around. When the opening lines up with the magnetic field the field physically expands onto the coil across from it. We are talking shockwave here. Then the flux supply is cutoff. The system now is a state of repair or gaining a new balance. The approach that this thread is taking doesnt have the speed compared to what I reference here. The field just sliding by doesnt perform the same as the cutting of the flux.
Where is the steady state magnetic field? It is the same magnet that gets shocked as its flux reconnects and is disconnected. Trap that!

Now the build in this thread needs a small modification. An aluminum disc with holes smaller in diameter than the magnet or core diam. Squeeze the flux. The new disc does not need to spin just place between the rotating disc and the static disc. This is now the flux cutter. Pretty simple. Just get some aluminum ducting and cut the new piece out.

The build as it stands now has a continuous field immersing the coils. There is always a level upto saturation we are competing with.
« Last Edit: 2011-06-01, 19:34:53 by giantkiller »


---------------------------
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
Thanks for your thoughts GK but this is a replication of Romero's device and for now the objective is to stay as close to the build as possible.
   
Group: Guest
GK,

If there is indeed flux cutting going on it is done with the coils. That is just long enough to allow the approaching rotor magnet to be attracted to the core in the coils. Once the rotor magnet is a little past center - the coils are turned off.

You like spinning, slotted aluminum thingies. I like stomping on a rotten bananas  ;D

When the coils are turned off that rotor magnet is where it isn't wanted and it shoots out the other side. Good reason to only have two drive coils  ;)  And good reason to have a fair amount of mass in the rotor  :)

This isn't a Muller and it isn't new.

Just my 2 cents. I haven't made a deposit lately  C.C
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
The other 3 perspex discs arrived today that were missing, still need my bearings and magnets yet before i plan to drill.

I etched the circuit boards this morning, 2 driver boards and 1 RPM counter/Bobbin Turns counter, i will drill these out tonight.

I am going to use M8 threaded rod for my shaft, i might just go with one bearing on the rotor and bolt the threaded rod to the  top and bottom discs, i could bolt the rotor and use 2 bearings for the top and bottom plates but this would give me twice the bearing friction and am not really sure if i need to do this, once the bearings arrive i can judge how much if any play there is and make a final decision.

The thing i do not get is that Romero used all 3 bearings, 1 for rotor and 2 for top and bottom plates WHY?

EDIT Magnets just arrived and it looks like the 20mm x 10mm are out of stock as they have been put on back order GRRR
I am surprised how weak the ceramic are, they barely stick together.

So here are the 20mm x 5mm ceramic and Neo's with the little 3mm hall trigger magnets
« Last Edit: 2011-06-02, 13:01:11 by Peterae »
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
Well it's certainly been an experience tonight.

PCBs are drilled, but when it came to the rotor, i pilot drilled 2mm holes using a paper template for positions which i taped to the disc, this went well and was easy.

When it came to the 18mm hole, i tried an old piece of perspex first and i could not get a normal drill bit to cut evenly, the angle of the blade is all wrong, so this is a no go with drill bits.

Next up i tried a wood paddle hole cutter, this was much better and i think the result maybe OK, not sure how true these holes will be, they look OK, but having practised a 20mm hole for the magnets the hole was slightly too big, so maybe i will try to get hold of a 19mm bit and a 17mm bit for the bearing.

I also realized tonight that there is no way i can drill the centre hole on my top and botton plates using my bench press because the diameter is too big to allow me to reach the centre once on the drill rest plate, I am not too worried about this hole so will use my hand drill as the top and bottom plates don't need to spin up and be dead centre.

   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
I Got the 2 top 2 bottom and rotor drilled tonight after plenty of practise, i ended up making a mistake on one rotor so glad i had 2 in the end.

The thing with the wood flat bits is to avoid them oscillating as they cut, if they oscillate at all then the hole will be over size, i ended up using a 19mm bit for the 20mm magnets and then reaming slightly with a 20mm bit, this worked well.

I thought i had 18mm OD bearings but they turned out to be 16mm, this was easier than the 19mm using a flat wood bit.
So that was the rotor done.

For the top and bottom plates i had 4 x 5mm large disc's, i G Clamped the lot together and pilot drilled with 3mm holes, i then drilled all coil mounts with 6mm holes and put the 4 holes around the perimeter edge using 8mm drills, the center hole was a real problem, i couldn't reach it on my bench press drill so had to use my hand drill, this was almost disastrous, as EM found out, it grabbed and cut very poorly, i think this was because i could not hold the drill true, anyway the center hole is a bit rough and slightly chipped as it went through all 4 plates, but because i am using this hole to bolt either side a M8 threaded rod and the rotor bearing will be in the rotor it does not matter so much.

I now need to work out how to securely mount the bearings in the center of the rotor and still allow myself to bolt the M8 threaded rod to the center of the bearing also, i think i need a sort of 8mm sleeve to fit over the M8 threaded rod each side of the bearing and bolt this together, and then maybe glue discs either side giving clearance to the sleeve but secure the outer part of the bearing to the rotor, i am going to need to use glue i think and will need to be carefull not to get this in the bearing workings.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
Couple of pics
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3217
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Nice work Peter.

Hey, if it doesn't end up working, you'll at least have a beautiful conversation piece to admire!

Good luck with the build.

 ;)


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2735
@peterae
Quote
The thing i do not get is that Romero used all 3 bearings, 1 for rotor and 2 for top and bottom plates WHY?
Friction, if the rotor is spinning at 1000 RPM then a single bearing must spin at 1000 RPM but with 3 bearings the rotor bearing may spin at 500 RPM and the spindle bearings at 500 RPM for a total of 1000 RPM. This means the two sets of bearings run at one half the normal RPM which does not reduce friction by one half but much more because friction does not rise at a linear rate. Spin a bearing twice as fast under load and the friction could rise 8X which is why paying attention to every little detail is so important.
When you build this device attach a magnet under the base of your stand to repel another magnet attached to the bottom of the spindle, this will cause the spindle to "float" vertically and remove the axial loading on your bearings leaving only a very small radial load if the rotor is balanced properly. You will find the rotor will spin not twice as long but over four times as long because the "load" is in fact the weight of the rotor not the radial component.
Regards
AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
Cheers Darren
Certainly looks good so far, although i would prefer it to work than look good  ;D


That's interesting Allcanadian, well i still have the option of drilling the top and bottom plates to take bearings.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
Well the sewing bobbins arrived today, they are 20mm diameter with a 6mm hole in the middle, this all matches so far, they are about 10mm high, the winding area is about 6mm x 9mm giving 54mm² now 7x0.125=0.875mm² so therefore i can wind a max of 61 Turns  :(

I think theres no doubt in my mind he didn't really know the turns number because i definitely have the correct sizing for the bobbin.
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
Thanks for that link DeepCut looks very handy for a variety of materials at good prices
Quote
http://www.mindsetsonline.co.uk/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=ferrite&x=0&y=0&osCsid=bclt0uk6arfjnan2hd41tsnj00

I have just been looking over the information on those 20mm x 5mm Ferrite magnets i bought, i could not work out why they were not sticking together very well, anyway looks like this is the reason.

Quote
Magnetised with a multi-pole magnetic pattern on one face

So am i reading this right that they have North and South poles on 1 flat face? WHY

It seems to be the same for all the ones i have found so far on eBay, I wonder if this is what Romero used (Doesn't make sense to me)
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
Quote
Well the sewing bobbins arrived today, they are 20mm diameter with a 6mm hole in the middle, this all matches so far, they are about 10mm high, the winding area is about 6mm x 9mm giving 54mm² now 7x0.125=0.875mm² so therefore i can wind a max of 61 Turns  Sad

Romero got it right maybe i just did the calculations wrong.

I put 7 strands of 0.125 wire together and twisted it to bind it together, i then proceeded to wind onto these little sewing bobbins and blow me i ran out of wire at 270 turns, need to start again and make a slightly longer length this time round and ditch the wire on this one.

300 Turns will fill the bobbin just how it is in his pictures  :)
« Last Edit: 2011-06-08, 20:18:36 by Peterae »
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
300 Turns of 7 strand 0.125mm wire  :)

Only 17 to go  :'(

EDIT i have now moved this to a public bench for all to view my build.
   
Group: Guest
Romero got it right maybe i just did the calculations wrong.
...............
300 Turns will fill the bobbin just how it is in his pictures  :)

Don't feel bad. I have never seen a formula or calculator that was anywhere near accurate for determining wire length needed, when it comes to Litz and most common wire.

The same goes for calculating inductance of some coils. I just use the 'extra & trim method'. 'Less & stretch' only works if you have a wire stretcher  ;D
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
WW  I must say stretching it didn't occur to me  ;D

I Will try measuring it's inductance tomorrow
   

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3961


Buy me some coffee
Thanks DeepCut
Yeah i hear ya, luckily my rotor could fit OK for drilling the center on the press, the only one was on the top and bottom plate center hole which was not easy with a hand drill, but didn't really need to be to accurate.
   
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
« previous next »


 

Home Help Search Login Register
Theme © PopularFX | Based on PFX Ideas! | Scripts from iScript4u 2024-11-27, 04:36:10