RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device

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OverUnity Research > Benches > Peterae Public Bench (Moderator: Peterae) > RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device

2024-11-27, 01:51:08
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Author Topic: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device (Read 140185 times)

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #75 on: 2011-06-14, 18:34:23 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Well done watsup i can confirm that when the hall is placed exactly how Romero had it then the rotor hall is indeed triggered before the magnet is under the drive coils and turns off dead center, so there is only one way this is going clockwise like the video and that is to use attraction mode for this hall. So indeed we have one coil operating in repulsion(periphery magnets) and one set of coils working in attraction mode(Rotor Hall)

Grumpy	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #76 on: 2011-06-14, 19:01:49 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: Peterae on 2011-06-14, 16:59:53 So the yellow text was already on the frame saying repulsion and attraction and this was directly from Romero? This quote is from Romero: Quote I am driving in attraction mode. I have started the project in repulsion then tried attraction. I get much better torque in attraction. I have spent about one month to do all this testings and adjustments. Small things can make a huge difference, like my extra diodes on top of the rectifier.The gap from the rotor to the coil I had it increased and decreased hundreds of times to get it right. All the best, RomeroUK

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #77 on: 2011-06-14, 19:41:44 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Yeah i am aware of that G and it does worry me as i have no reason to doubt Romero, the problem i have is that the periphery hall is positioned wrongly to operate in attraction with the rotor going clockwise, although i have to say that with tonight's test most of the rotational energy is from the rotor drive because the hall is switched on longer, maybe he wanted the other drive to slow down or impede the rotation direction if so why, i have to say it looks to me like the wired direction is the same for both drives and therefore both coils should be one or other, i am constantly trying to go over the videos and wiring to find any solution.

EMdevices	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #78 on: 2011-06-14, 20:30:48 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Quote So indeed we have one coil operating in repulsion(periphery magnets) and one set of coils working in attraction mode(Rotor Hall) Not correct, both motor coil pairs are operated in attraction. ~~What you guys might not know is that Romero uses an iphone to take those pictures, and those that have iphones will know that the images after capture are REVERSED, or fliped LEFT TO RIGHT~~. ~~That's how you reconcile what he says by what you see in the images!~~ EDIT: you reconcile these inconsistencies by realizing that indeed Romero's dynamo has both coils in attraction, so they create opposing torques on the rotor due to the location of the hall sensors (one leading and one lagging it's respective coil) that's why the rotor jerks around upon startup, AND draws 12 watts while running without load, which is excessive for such slow RPMs (2000 or so) EM ------------------------ RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device RomeroUK_image_flipped.JPG (111.26 kB, 674x913 - viewed 821 times.) « Last Edit: 2011-06-16, 21:54:54 by EMdevices »

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #79 on: 2011-06-14, 20:35:50 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	I am not sure that a mirrored image would make too much difference as both sensors are still on one side of the rotor, so in that case also 1 will be attraction and the other will be repulsion, although this is very interesting info EM thanks, does this go for the video's as well as the pictures. EDIT hang on the analogue meters move the correct way

macedonia cd	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #80 on: 2011-06-14, 20:43:58 »
Group: Guest	hello to all can we see anather test whit biger setup if is posible did whill be working this devices .each time when is reply something is going vrong if is make biger or small device . if posible @romero make anteher video whit biger setup THANKS .

EMdevices	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #81 on: 2011-06-14, 20:46:13 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	I added a picture to my previous post. ~~Peter, I'm not sure about videos, I think not, but not 100% sure, I just noticed this with pictures because it annoyes me.~~ EM « Last Edit: 2011-06-16, 21:56:08 by EMdevices »

macedonia cd	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #82 on: 2011-06-14, 20:46:56 »
Group: Guest	HELLO @EMdevice

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #83 on: 2011-06-14, 20:59:55 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Hi EM No if you look at the picture i posted above yours , i took this from the video, and in the same video the analogue meter is reading from left to right correctly, so my aerial shot of where the hall is must be correct, and in the aerial picture the periphery hall is at the top and to the left of the driven coil, as in your first non reversed image.

Grumpy	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #84 on: 2011-06-14, 21:06:42 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Top Hall Sensor ------------------------ RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device Romero_top Hall Sensor.PNG (990.42 kB, 842x654 - viewed 808 times.)

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #85 on: 2011-06-14, 21:08:30 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Yep G I can confir that is the rotor hall not the periphery hall. That defiantly works in attraction mode when the rotor goes clockwise because the hall is right of the coil. It's the other hall that's the problem, it's left of the other drive coil and therefore must be working in repulsion mode for the rotor to turn clockwise I will refer to my picture again below The hall circled green at the top of the picture is the periphery driven hall, when viewing the coil close it is positioned to the left of the coil It cannot work in attraction The hall circled green at the bottom of the picture is the rotor driven hall, when viewing the coil close it is positioned to the right of the coil It can only work in attraction

Grumpy	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #86 on: 2011-06-14, 21:18:07 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	So, the top Hall sensor will be on longer than the peripheral Hall sensor, since the magnets are larger (wider). Arrow on image from the PDF indicates clockwise. ------------------------ RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device Romero_arrow_CW_and BH curve.PNG (157.65 kB, 871x703 - viewed 768 times.)

Grumpy	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #87 on: 2011-06-14, 21:22:25 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Comment by Romero on Hall triggering: Quote The 2 driving coils are running independently, not activating at the same time, that is what I need, to have the second coil activating when the other one is completely off.

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #88 on: 2011-06-14, 21:26:38 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Yep it can be seen to be started by Romero going clockwise. Interestingly the top hall sensor is indeed on longer, but the hall is at right angles to the rotor magnet, so the magnet has to just go past the hall to activate, note the hall sensor has 2 flat sides, one side is activated by south and the other is activated by north

Grumpy	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #89 on: 2011-06-14, 21:36:43 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Can you tell which side of the top Hall is South? Romero said that all of the magnets were South facing up.

Grumpy	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #90 on: 2011-06-14, 21:45:30 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	see attached for Hall Identification Edit: So the sensor plate is right in the center of the plastic mass of the sensor. UA type output is low when the south pole is near, so the magnet turns it off. What about the peripheral one, same way? He said they were South facing out. ------------------------ RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device Romero_top Hall Sensor Pole location.PNG (1038.52 kB, 964x1163 - viewed 762 times.) US5781_rev013.pdf (428.53 kB - downloaded 426 times.)

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #91 on: 2011-06-14, 21:49:39 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Yep i can tell which way each hall sensor is positioned because it has 1 flat side and a triangular shape to the sides on the other side of the package this is clear in the datasheet. I have just watched the video again and it has all fallen in place. The perphery hall is indeed in attraction mode, when he first connects the battery the rotor just sits there rocking violently back and forth, whats happening here is the rotor hall switches on and pulls the rotor clockwise, then the periphery hall activates repelling the magnet which actually pulls the rotor anti clockwise, this is why it rocks back and forth violently without a directional shove by hand, once he shoves it clockwise because the rotor drive is stronger the clockwise direction overides the anti clockwise pull on the periphery drive, the net result is that once it's over a certain rpm the periphery drive will regulate the speed, this is why the rotor does not slow on being loaded, it's a form of speed regulation, this also explains why the current may vary down slightly with a load applied, it's because the rpm is regulated and cannot alter once up to speed how clever is that, all we need to work out now is how it generates more than it uses.

Grumpy	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #92 on: 2011-06-14, 21:54:36 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	So the sensor plate is right in the center of the plastic mass of the sensor. UA type output is low when the south pole is near, so the magnet turns it off. What about the peripheral one, same way? He said they were South facing out.

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #93 on: 2011-06-14, 21:57:35 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	With the periphery hall, he uses the larger flat side of the hall which needs a north to activate.

EMdevices	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #94 on: 2011-06-14, 22:07:35 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Peter, 1) I agree, the video is not flipped. The writing is proof. 2) The top hall in your aerial snapshot from the video seems to be the shorter hall with wires, becasue I don't see it protude too deep below the surface, so it has to be the hall that gets activated by the rotor magnets, therefore, the front hall is then the perifery one, and we can even see that it has longer wires below the surface. Do you agree? As an added comment, the periphery hall will activate the coils for a shorter rotor angle, due to the small magnets embeded in the periphery. The other hall will have a longer ON time. EM

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #95 on: 2011-06-14, 22:07:52 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	It must also cause a deceleration for a very short time, this maybe viewable on that scope shot by maybe the collapse slope would be shallower or be slanted slightly with respect to the creating slope

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #96 on: 2011-06-14, 22:10:59 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Quote from: EMdevices on 2011-06-14, 22:07:35 Peter, 1) I agree, the video is not flipped. The writing is proof. 2) The top hall in your aerial snapshot from the video seems to be to be a shorter hall, as I don't see it protrude too deep, so it's the hall that get activated by the rotor magnets, and the front hall is the periphery one. Do you agree? As an added comment, the periphery hall will activate the coils for a shorter rotor angle, due to the small magnets embedded in the periphery. The other hall will have a longer ON time. EM EM the hall at the top is placed at the edge of the rotor so it must be the periphery hall, look at it's positioning and then look at the hall at the bottom. EDIT either way 1 of the halls is still on the wrong side for both to work conventionally in attraction

EMdevices	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #97 on: 2011-06-14, 22:12:35 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	yeah, you do have a point there as well. $:-\$

Peterae	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #98 on: 2011-06-14, 22:15:57 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Watch the beginning of the video and see how the rotor rocks back and forth, when i try switching on the bench with just the rotor hall driver connected it wants to get going as soon as the hall is triggered with very small amount of push, if my rotor rocked like his with just the rotor connected it would accelerate not rock back and forth

EMdevices	Re: RomeroUK Replication Muller Variant Device « Reply #99 on: 2011-06-14, 22:20:58 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	I thought about the rocking back and forth before, good point. In DC fan motors, which have hall sensors, they start right up, but not Romero's motor. So then can we conclude with 100% certainly that: ~~One coil pair is driven in ATTRACTION and one in REPULSION ?~~ Edit: This should read: One coil pair is driving Clockwise and the other Counterclockwise, therfore in opposite sense? If that's the case this is a most interesting mode of operation, of distrotion of the fields in a dynamic system. EM « Last Edit: 2011-06-16, 22:02:54 by EMdevices »

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