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OverUnity Research > Benches > giantkiller (Moderator: giantkiller) > The final answer...
2024-11-24, 15:33:28
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img  Centraflow
Re: The final answer... « Reply #150 on: 2018-06-26, 19:43:15 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2018-06-25, 17:47:32
Mike,

Here is a test with Circuit 2 running with a 10v dc supply.  Again notice the lower operating frequency verses Circuit 1.  Probe ID's are same as before.

Regards,
Pm

Thanks PM

That is interesting, well I think so.

So we have a step charge of L1+L2 at the parallel LC frequency with C1 when the mosfet is high.
When the mosfet goes low L1 discharges through the diode and L2 and C2 discharge at their LC frequency back to source it seems, hence the negative current oscillation.
Now the discharge to the diode is like a rectified positive pulse with hash. If you could expand that we could see better.

Regards

Mike 8)



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Re: The final answer... « Reply #151 on: 2018-06-28, 13:34:57 »
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Quote from: Centraflow on 2018-06-26, 19:43:15
Thanks PM

That is interesting, well I think so.

So we have a step charge of L1+L2 at the parallel LC frequency with C1 when the mosfet is high.
When the mosfet goes low L1 discharges through the diode and L2 and C2 discharge at their LC frequency back to source it seems, hence the negative current oscillation.
Now the discharge to the diode is like a rectified positive pulse with hash. If you could expand that we could see better.

Regards

Mike 8)

Mike,

Sorry to be late in responding but have been taking care of household duties.  I think you may have meant "mosfet gate" in your analysis above because the action you describe is correct.

What would you like to see expanded in the discharge phase of the circuit?

Pm
   
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Re: The final answer... « Reply #152 on: 2018-06-28, 15:19:10 »

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Well I have not had much luck with tank circuits yet, but I did get a good handle on 90deg ferromagnetic coupling. ^-^

Several systems of various types and sizes were tested, it should not be hard for anyone here to replicate.  Just wind several turns of insulated Fe/Ni wire in a loop and wind many turns of copper wire over it in a spiral.  Pulse the copper, extract output on the Iron.  Output in these setups is predominantly DC (with a little hash >:-)).

Because of the frequency ranges (~1khz-50khz+) and other factors, it does look to be based on magnetostriction.  This means all flavors of ferromagnetic/paramagnetic metals should work fine.  Nickel battery strip used for chaining LIPO batteries works great.  Just insulate with a layer of Kapton tape before coiling.
https://www.amazon.com/Breynet-18650-Nickel-Welding-Battery/dp/B07CVVZ1Y9

Efficiency is not the best(yet).  I hit a wall at 50-60% efficiency when driving these.  Perhaps I need to let the wire hang more loosely, or add a nickel coating to iron, or maybe add a runner line of copper parallel to the iron wire in order to couple into low-loss copper.  More likely I just need to move on to resonating pairs of these in tank circuits and let the Kunel magic happen.


The neatest feature besides DC output is that within audible frequencies these things literally sing.  Loud.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2yo-2yFP4g


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #153 on: 2018-06-28, 16:48:27 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2018-06-28, 13:34:57
Mike,

Sorry to be late in responding but have been taking care of household duties.  I think you may have meant "mosfet gate" in your analysis above because the action you describe is correct.

What would you like to see expanded in the discharge phase of the circuit?

Pm

Hi PM, take your time, my wife and I are a bit under the weather ATM.

The pink trace going to the diode and the mosfet drain.

Have you put a resistor across the output cap to create a load? just wondering what difference there is to the pink trace with and without.

I think we don't quite yet have the iron core/coil right, hence my question about an infinity magnetic current loop on the other thread ;)

Regards

Mike 8)

« Last Edit: 2018-06-29, 12:14:57 by Centraflow »


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #154 on: 2018-06-30, 16:48:35 »

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I'm finally starting to see the different properties for grounded vs ungrounded systems, as it relates to tanks.  Grounded systems simply do not ring as well.  Well, for RC circuits they're fine, but ground seems to snub any radiant/electrostatic impulses.  Too much capacity I reckon. :-\  I suspect that strong HV would overcome that issue, but I've smoked too much equipment to risk diving back into that field quite yet C.C.
Anyway, this has led to a couple questions:

Would it be advantageous to simply float my entire bench (power supply, scope, oscillator, etc) with a large 12v battery bank and an AC sinewave inverter?
or would the battery present so much capacity that you'd lose the benefits of floating?    I do have an off-grid solar rig set up, but relocating it to the lab area would take much effort.
Was looking for some advice before I go break apart and relocate that monstrosity. :P :P


Perhaps it's just better to power devices and oscillators via battery, and use magnetic/dielectric coupling to take indirect scope readings of the tanks?


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #155 on: 2018-06-30, 18:53:07 »
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Mike,

OK, I finally got back to the bench and ran the following test on circuit 2 with C1 = .022uf and C2 = 6800pf with the supply at 10v dc.  Probe ID's are same as before with CH3(pnk) alternated between the AC and DC output and CH2(blu) being the supply voltage.  The load resistance used was a non-inductive 50 ohm film resistor which provided the best efficiency at the frequency of 594.1kHz.

Pix 1 shows the output DC voltage of 11.93v mean on CH3 which results in 2.85w output.  The input power seen in the Math channel is 3.865w mean.  Note the gate drive voltage distortion and the high peak current at the mosfet drain.

Pix 2  shows the AC output waveform at pin1 of the Schottky diode on CH3.

The pix 3 Math channel shows the input at 3.069w mean with no load.  The AC output with no load is seen on CH3 .

Regards,
Pm
   
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Re: The final answer... « Reply #156 on: 2018-07-01, 01:40:42 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2018-06-30, 18:53:07
Mike,

OK, I finally got back to the bench and ran the following test on circuit 2 with C1 = .022uf and C2 = 6800pf with the supply at 10v dc.  Probe ID's are same as before with CH3(pnk) alternated between the AC and DC output and CH2(blu) being the supply voltage.  The load resistance used was a non-inductive 50 ohm film resistor which provided the best efficiency at the frequency of 594.1kHz.

Pix 1 shows the output DC voltage of 11.93v mean on CH3 which results in 2.85w output.  The input power seen in the Math channel is 3.865w mean.  Note the gate drive voltage distortion and the high peak current at the mosfet drain.

Pix 2  shows the AC output waveform at pin1 of the Schottky diode on CH3.

The pix 3 Math channel shows the input at 3.069w mean with no load.  The AC output with no load is seen on CH3 .

Regards,
Pm

Thanks for sharing, Partzman :)
  From your scope-shots it looks like your coils might be ringing closer to 10Mhz, which might be too high to efficiently switch with your setup.  Maybe adding some core material (ferrite/iron/nickel) will help bring that number down, or adding tank caps, or simply scaling the whole thing up to hundreds of turns instead of dozens.
Of course we're about neck-and-neck right now so it's anybody's guess ;D

If you have an LC meter, you can also try measuring the inductance of the copper coil while slowly powering up the iron coil w/ straight DC and slowly increasing the current.  It would give you a good idea how much inductance 'swing' is there, and what your hysteresis curve looks like.


I was thinking about doing this setup instead with a few dozen turns of iron wire, and several hundred turns of copper wire wrapped toroidally around the iron wire core.  That would provide 90deg coupling and make it act more like a mag-amp.


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #157 on: 2018-07-01, 12:02:35 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2018-06-30, 18:53:07
Mike,
  Note the gate drive voltage distortion and the high peak current at the mosfet drain.

Thank's PM

Yes I did notice, what are you driving the gate with or are you driving straight from the SG (10v)?

Still analysing the  tests so as to alter the circuit accordingly.

Regards

mike 8)
« Last Edit: 2018-07-01, 15:34:09 by Centraflow »


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Re: The final answer... « Reply #158 on: 2018-07-01, 18:53:39 »
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Quote from: Reiyuki on 2018-07-01, 01:40:42
Thanks for sharing, Partzman :)
  From your scope-shots it looks like your coils might be ringing closer to 10Mhz, which might be too high to efficiently switch with your setup.  Maybe adding some core material (ferrite/iron/nickel) will help bring that number down, or adding tank caps, or simply scaling the whole thing up to hundreds of turns instead of dozens.
Of course we're about neck-and-neck right now so it's anybody's guess ;D

If you have an LC meter, you can also try measuring the inductance of the copper coil while slowly powering up the iron coil w/ straight DC and slowly increasing the current.  It would give you a good idea how much inductance 'swing' is there, and what your hysteresis curve looks like.


I was thinking about doing this setup instead with a few dozen turns of iron wire, and several hundred turns of copper wire wrapped toroidally around the iron wire core.  That would provide 90deg coupling and make it act more like a mag-amp.

On this coil arrangement, the inductance change of the copper winding L1 was ~2% with the 3 turn iron winding L2 varied from 0 to 1.5A dc.  The iron wire I'm using is typical bailing wire obtained from a farm supply store.  Very little inductance change.

Pm
   
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Re: The final answer... « Reply #159 on: 2018-07-01, 18:58:51 »
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Quote from: Centraflow on 2018-07-01, 12:02:35
Thank's PM

Yes I did notice, what are you driving the gate with or are you driving straight from the SG (10v)?

Still analysing the  tests so as to alter the circuit accordingly.

Regards

mike 8)

The gate drive is taken from a complementary bipolar half bridge driven by a Cmos 4049 buffer all with a 10v dc supply.  I'm sure the distortion is primarily caused by ground looping in my breadboard layout.  The mosfet used was an IRF14N05L.

Pm
   
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Re: The final answer... « Reply #160 on: 2018-07-04, 03:40:42 »

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Quote
On this coil arrangement, the inductance change of the copper winding L1 was ~2% with the 3 turn iron winding L2 varied from 0 to 1.5A dc.  The iron wire I'm using is typical bailing wire obtained from a farm supply store.  Very little inductance change.

@partzman: 
I've had better luck pushing closer to the saturation knee.

Eric Dollard mentions a propagation constant 'Ohm-Siemens' as an energy factor for each verser.  This suggests the amount of change of L or C within each quadrant results in a proportional synthesis/destruction of energy.  2% may simply not be enough to close the loop.

You might try 'paddle wire' used in floral decoration (hobby/craft stores will have it).  Or, insulated garden wire (local hardware stores should have it).  Less core and more turns = easier to saturate.


@GK
Loved your book.  Quite clever and entertaining.
Shields up!  8)
« Last Edit: 2018-07-05, 17:49:35 by Reiyuki »


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #161 on: 2018-08-04, 20:59:35 »

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@ Reiyuki Thanks for the comment about the book. People ask me what its about and I replay "Its a semi true book about a guy who screws with people's minds." That way there is no bias towards sci fi, tech or emo story.
 
 Now...I went to the mountains for 4 days. Didnt bother to tell any one. I was just going to sign a business contract in Salida and BLM camp. No big deal and no Sprint coverage phone service either. I get back into town and stepped into a shat storm of issues. My dad had passed away, my local friends and family could get ahold of me, my distant family was in a complete chaotic mess about my disappearance and my dad's passing, my locals had the 3 day requirement for a missing persons report and were going to file on the 5th day, my laptop died, backups were screwed up and in pieces, taxes were needed to be filed, at home one day and back out the door on a plane for the funeral. All this within a week's time. I hadnt told anybody figuring I would be gone for 4 days. Nobody ever bothers me. I step out of town for few days and the whole world crumbles. Juggling rabid monkeys. All is settled and I am back on board. Just need to redo pieces and parts of my laptops applications. Who would have thought 40 years of I.T. experience would have come in so handy.


But I sidetrack. I posted a comment on the companion wave generator because it is so important. The setup had no circuit to sustain any ringing. The TPUs all apply this to a helical antenna configuration. Now this thread has some pretty interesting comments by Petrae. http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=38.msg234#msg234 In particular about adding magnets to the little transformer. I have been using transformers to increase the length of my helical antennas. The helicals are connected to the primaries and secondaries. I get good ringing returning. The object is to accomplish resonant rise just like in a Tesla coil but with components instead of the ambient capacitance.


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #162 on: 2018-08-05, 15:50:59 »

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@GK sorry to hear about all the issues.   Life sure loves to keep us busy.  When I was younger I wouldn't have believed that projects could get sidetracked for months or a year.  Now I do C.C.

Well anyway, I'm quickly realizing that knowing the principles of how an internal combustion engine works is a very different problem from being able to build an engine from scratch.

I still run into issues, but am slowly getting there.  The journey from a conceptual understanding to an engineering one is entertaining.  At least now I have a 'compass' of weird phenomena that I can always return to to keep me oriented.  ...I never thought there would be so much depth and variety and precision in something as simple as a MOSFET.


Thanks again for blowing some more wind into the sails ;D
« Last Edit: 2018-08-05, 17:35:28 by Reiyuki »


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #163 on: 2018-08-05, 20:38:25 »

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Here is what might sound like a stupid statement but MOSFET linear mode operation should be obsolete by the use of Frequency shift keying/ frequency modulation configurations.It happened with audio equipment. Cool runnings at lower cost and longer life runtime.I found this out when building an FSK/FM and a linear mode amplifier. I thought it strange that linear mode has such a strong following. But then it occurred to me it fell upon the geographics of the training which then permeates into careers. With linear mode there is a need for heat sinks and larger current handling mid schematic. With FSK/FM the thermal area is pushed out to the production end of the schematic or operation.In other words we are in the middle of two camps of thought: using current or using frequency.


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #164 on: 2018-08-06, 00:26:11 »

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GK, It was more about navigating the internal inductance/capacitance of FETs (and their self-resonance at higher voltages) and discovering that they are nowhere near 'on' until you REALLY start pounding at the gates.  I think my IT history clouded me into thinking 'a switch was basically a switch' even after experiments proved otherwise. C.C

That and being diverted to working on electrotherapy prototypes to help a sick relative (both the Body Electric author's DC setup and a micro Lakovsky MWO.)


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #165 on: 2018-08-06, 01:59:55 »

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Quote from: Reiyuki
It was more about navigating the internal inductance/capacitance of
FETs (and their self-resonance at higher voltages) and discovering that
they are nowhere near 'on' until you REALLY start pounding at the gates.

Such is the 'secret' of using MOSFETs as efficient switches.  Of course,
the same was/is true with Bipolar Transistors;  the lowest possible Vce(sat)
for efficient switching requires significant Base drive current with provision
for removal of 'stored charge' to speed up turn-off.  Tricks of the trade.


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #166 on: 2018-08-06, 06:26:45 »

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Quote
Standing waves are only
present when the line is mismatched.
Does Higher SWR Lead to Lower
Power Being Transmitted?
Not always so dramatically. Believe it or
not, 100 percent of the power is actually transmitted
in both of the previous examples. In the
first case, with a 50 Ω antenna, it’s easy to see
how all the power is transferred to the antenna
to be radiated since there are no reflections.
In the second case, the 33 percent voltage
reflection travels back down to the transmitter
where it doesn’t stop but is re-reflected from
the transmitter back toward the antenna along
with the forward wave. The energy bounces
back and forth inside the cable until it’s all
radiated by the antenna for a lossless transmission
line. An important point to realize
is that with extremely low loss transmission
line, no matter what the SWR, most of the
power can get delivered to the antenna.


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #167 on: 2018-08-06, 15:12:19 »
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Quote from: giantkiller on 2018-08-06, 06:26:45


Re reply 166. Please provide citations when quoting.


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #168 on: 2018-08-06, 17:30:13 »

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Re: The final answer... « Reply #169 on: 2018-08-06, 19:08:03 »
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Re: The final answer... « Reply #170 on: 2018-08-07, 17:54:36 »

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Here is a concept video to show the standing wave where the timing is just a bit off so the wave scrolls past the center toroids.
 
I use the term 'concept' here loosely because any tests with a ring transformer have produced this.

No Spherics ties validated.
He was involved with nuclear sciences in some way because of the things he articulated.
He posted a picture a nuclear bomb setup at Alamogordo, NM and waited for responses.
I posted I was interested in the coax running all over the bomb itself. He asked me why is this so?
I restated controlled, eclipsing frequencies during the ECD build time. He posted a smiley emoji and I never heard from him again nor did anybody else.
I guess he was satisfied with the seeds he planted. Too bad too. He was a sharp cookie.
From what I can remember is after he communicated with Lindsay he never much communicated with others too much after that. I don't feel too special about his individual response to me for he might have talked with others in their own way too. I was too involved mentally with the addiction to the TPU and found myself getting spread too thin. And that is why to this day I harp on mixing frequencies.
Now it might not be the actually mixing of frequencies that do it but the awareness made of the frequencies themselves and the other parameters of them that he tried to get us to focus on.
Transmission reflections and power distribution failures were my final outcome.
Tesla did this on purpose with his earthquake machine and I associated this magnetically to the TPU.
SM mentioned Radio shack. 555s were available along with lm324s and FETs. As I looked back I always felt like a kid in candy store after that. By paralleling two 555s with a wire length delay between them we can achieve a very high speed switching scheme.

I believe SM was very truthful in a very obscuring way about the TPU. Anybody else that came along with insights that had been involved with D.O.D. technology was not at liberty to teach anybody outright. I believe Spherics to be one of these types.

The other piece of the puzzle was Radio shack did not sell fet drivers as these were way too expensive for their retail model.

As SM was in audio he came from the FET linear operating range. When he switched FETs off and on digitally he must have heard or seen large speakers bust up a room by the high power clicking.

He was in the audio history where the industry change was happening where FET operation went from ac linear to dc frequency scheme of audio transmission.

And each revelation brought ten fold more on.

One of the conspiracy theories is blaming the Rothschilds and Rockefellers for changing the tonal range of public audio frequencies from Solfeggio to Intonation. Nothing really hidden. Solfegios transmitted with power over copper would decimate the analog electronics at the time. Tubes would have busted because of the fascination with audio fidelity. And IC designs surely wouldn't have made it off the prototyping bench.

Just another reason why tubes were mentioned. No particle physics, just fidelity and frequency scheming.

With fidelity comes reverberations or transmission reflections.

A lot of elbow bending over the simplest of things.
« Last Edit: 2018-09-19, 04:23:56 by giantkiller »


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #171 on: 2018-09-20, 04:15:13 »

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In this next stage I am implementing a 555 as a retriggerable one shot as a driver and feed back implementation.
I want to drive the primary and receive the trigger from the air coupling to the secondary.
Using a very short driver pulse it is my hopes to get the device to self oscillate.
I have implemented the 555 as the heart of the High Q mulitplier: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=860.msg42286#msg42286
This fits right in the two oscillator section of the last schematic of this post: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=860.msg15322#msg15322
My aim is to have the 555 act as the control of the loop than a specific filtered frequency. This way the ungrounded, floating circuit can correct itself.

The signal protocol would be that the BEMF collapse is in synch and in phase with the next driver pulse, thereby creating a power line oscillatory feedback loop.
Parametric oscillations without harmonic dampening.

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Re: The final answer... « Reply #172 on: 2018-09-20, 06:03:58 »
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What you've described there is essentially how the TinselKoil X wireless power transmitter system works. A 555 timer is used to generate an initial pulsetrain into a mosfet driver chip that is driving the mosfet switching the primary. This causes the floating secondary to ring at its resonant frequency. This ringing is detected by a small antenna which then takes over driving the mosfet driver chip, overriding the weak initial signal from the 555. So the system is self correcting due to the feedback cycle, just as you have said, and remains in resonance as the environment changes or power is extracted, etc. However this isn't a parametric oscillator.
   
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Re: The final answer... « Reply #173 on: 2018-09-20, 22:29:10 »

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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2018-09-20, 06:03:58
What you've described there is essentially how the TinselKoil X wireless power transmitter system works. A 555 timer is used to generate an initial pulsetrain into a mosfet driver chip that is driving the mosfet switching the primary. This causes the floating secondary to ring at its resonant frequency. This ringing is detected by a small antenna which then takes over driving the mosfet driver chip, overriding the weak initial signal from the 555. So the system is self correcting due to the feedback cycle, just as you have said, and remains in resonance as the environment changes or power is extracted, etc. However this isn't a parametric oscillator.
I couldn't find the post or schematic for this. Can you supply link for our perusal?
I am interested to see if parametrics could be added.
And in return I submit using an antenna of FE wire. This picks up signals from ALL directions.
Thanks.


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Re: The final answer... « Reply #174 on: 2018-09-21, 20:41:15 »

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I also believe the kick is a transmission reflection.
A parametric oscillator is COP > 1.
A swingset is a parametric oscillator.
SM mentioned a swingset operation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY3ymZC6t9M

The TPU is a parametric oscillator.
Had this been the first understanding of the efforts of OUR's we would be in a different place in history.
https://www.google.com/search?q=parametric+amplifier+circuit&client=firefox-b-1&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=CCs1XDsbZsNhrM%253A%252C003lAnXypGbm2M%252C_&usg=AI4_-kQSb3FBLnHOA6uS7FoPuN6eCfHpUQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjUipK3ic3dAhXJ6oMKHbxxDsUQ9QEwBXoECAEQBA#imgrc=FTgRYpbCPaCuOM:
A Tesla coil is a parametric oscillator/amplifier.

Googled:
Quote
harmonic problems in power lines

https://www.google.com/search?q=harmonic+problems+in+power+lines&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

So the TPU converts a third harmonic generation into a grid compatible power signal?
Quote
Harmonics are created by electronic equipment with nonlinear loads drawing in current in abrupt short pulses.
The short pulses cause distorted current waveforms, which in turn cause harmonic currents to flow back into other parts of the power system.
Harmonics are especially prevalent when there are many personal computers, laser printers, fax machines, copiers, or medical test equipment, fluorescent lighting, uninterruptible power supplies (UPSs), and variable speed drives all on the same electrical system.

https://www.grainger.com/content/safety-electrical-power-system-harmonics
SM only mentions two frequencies.

« Last Edit: 2018-09-22, 18:54:53 by giantkiller »


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