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Author Topic: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only.  (Read 167587 times)
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img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #175 on: 2011-06-19, 05:28:25 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2011-06-19, 04:21:08
Gibbs,

If your input source is DC, the phase angle between the input voltage and current is always 0º.

Aside from the very low net input currents involved, and the potential difficulty in getting a nice clean average reading of it, the INPUT power measurement with a non-inductive CSR and single (or dual) DMM is a snap.

.99

Poynt,

Why do you require a non-inductive CSR?
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #176 on: 2011-06-20, 21:21:38 »
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Quote from: lanenal on 2011-06-18, 17:01:27
I looked into the way of doing it in LTSpice, and it can do RMS and MEAN calculations over many cycles. I found that input is 955uW and output is 213uW. Not surprising here. These numbers shows us that a lot of power is spent at the transistor/coil/core/diode. Therefore when we get a n=50% when only considering the power stored in a cap at the output, that is a strong indicator of ou. As I have shown in the other posts, including the power dissipation on the diode might be enough to show ou.

Good points, Lane... and also Gibbs. 

The discussion at OU -- note that I found this morning on my variant of Xee2's variant, that the LED dims quickly down (Pinput ~ 700mW), then the LED turns back ON (clearly) while the Pinput has dropped dramatically.

/2 C V**2

So Pinput = 1/2 C (Vstart**2 - Vend**2)/time

        = 1/2 10mF (2.8**2 - 1.7**2) / 3.4 seconds   = 7.3 mW = 7300 uW  (above Vcritical)

Not too exciting so far, but I noticed that the LED came BACK ON at approx 1.63 Volts!  Not bright, but clearly glowing.  Note that Xee2 on his schematic specifies 1.366V as Vinput, so this would be in the range of much lower power consumption, Pinput.

Note that the power consumption is hundreds of times LESS:

 Pinput = 1/2 C (Vstart**2 - Vend**2)/time

        = 1/2 10mF (1.431**2 - 1.243**2) / 200 seconds   = 0.0126 mW  = 12.6 uW  !!  (below Vcritical)

The input power has dropped by a factor of over 500.

Next I put a 1ohm resistor in series with the LED, and the Pinput dropped to about 9.3 uW. As in "microwatts"!!

BTW, I noticed the same pattern for the sj1 circuit a while back, dimming, then the LED comes back on and glows for a lot longer thereafter.  I thought it was just a curiosity when I discussed this with smartscarecrow last week, but now I see this as an important effect -- and very dramatic with Xee2's circuit, a huge reduction in Pinput.

With a red LED instead of Green, the Pinput is roughly the same (11 uW from 1.291V to 1.117V in 200s).  The red LED goes OFF at about 1.44 Vin (from the cap) and back on at lower Pinput, at about 1.406 Vin.

Now this is exciting -- but why the huge drop in Pinput at a critical voltage?? I really don't know, but would like to understand. Will some of you jump in and let's see if we can figure this out?  My GUESS is that the lower Pinput range is the most interesting in terms of seeking OU.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #177 on: 2011-06-21, 04:05:27 »
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I just did some testing on this effect.

I use my PNP configuration because it seems to give a clearer window than NPN.
The pot is 50K and the capacitor is 1uF.
V critical is different depends on LED.  The white and pink LED have higher V critical than the red.

Actually, I observed 3 stages. 

1st stage:  highest voltage, LED blinking fast, meter read 77-170 Hz
2nd stage:   frequency start to increase to 200-400 Hz and suddenly jumped to 1.2-1.5Mhz for 1-1.5 seconds.  This sucks alot of energy. LED becomes bright.
3rd stage:  LED dimmed out, then back to blinking mode after that 1-1.5 seconds with reading 30-40 kHz and dropping

I think the stage where you stated 7300uW is the 2nd stage. The low power is the 3rd stage. 
   
img  poynt99
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #178 on: 2011-06-21, 04:45:31 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2011-06-19, 05:28:25
Poynt,

Why do you require a non-inductive CSR?

With inductance comes inductive reactance to high frequencies and transients. This skews the current measurement (makes it look like less current, hence less power), and that is not what we want.

Even with a non-inductive CSR, keep the probe leads as close as possible to the CSR body.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #179 on: 2011-06-21, 05:47:55 »
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  Thanks for doing that testing, Gibbs, and for presenting your results clearly.

Note that over at OU, the circuit with the LOWEST Pinput is now that of Nul-pts:
Quote
Steven

i made an interesting discovery - the tertiary winding for the o/p in my previous circuit is  redundant!  (see below for updated schematic)

the latest circuit, using a 1000uF 35V cap as C2 (all other other parts as posted above) takes 687 seconds (11min 27sec) to discharge a nominal 1000uF cap from 2.55V to 1.5V

C2 1000uF (nominal)
2.55V => 3.251mJ
1.50V => 1.125mJ
                    -------
           Ein: 2.126mJ

Pav: 2.126/687 = 3.1uW (including cap leakage)


thanks
np

Xee2 has a circuit with Pinput of 3.9uW, also measured using the cap/time method for Pinput.  (But still working towards consistency in measurements.)

To me, these results are remarkable.  I've achieved about 7-10uW with my "best" circuit.  Interestingly, I have put a 21-ohm R in series with the LED and can still get Pinput ~ 10 uW.

@Gibbs -- can you measure the Pinput for your circuit?  As I also asked of the guys there:

Quote
1.  Can you test from 1.37 V down to 1.10 V, using the cap/time method?  That should give plenty of time to get an accurate reading.  You may use different caps as you wish, but please give the correction for cap leakage (done by seeing how the cap voltage drops over the same time as the run -- but without cap connected to the DUT. Subtract this "effective cap-power loss" from the measured Pinput. This leakage correction will be smaller for shorter time in the run).

2.  AND, if you have a 1N4148 diode available, pls repeat the test with this "standard diode" in place of the LED.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #180 on: 2011-06-21, 06:15:28 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2011-06-21, 04:45:31
With inductance comes inductive reactance to high frequencies and transients. This skews the current measurement (makes it look like less current, hence less power), and that is not what we want.

Even with a non-inductive CSR, keep the probe leads as close as possible to the CSR body.

.99

From the link you provided:

"...When there is inductive reactance present in the circuit, the phase of the current will be shifted so that its peaks and valleys do not occur at the same time as those of the voltage...."

Can this happens to a DC source with phase angle is always 0 degree?  Or are you referring to a special case where DC is pulsing? 


Professor,

I will do it tomorrow.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #181 on: 2011-06-21, 07:46:48 »
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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2011-06-21, 06:15:28
...
"...When there is inductive reactance present in the circuit, the phase of the current will be shifted so that its peaks and valleys do not occur at the same time as those of the voltage...."

Can this happens to a DC source with phase angle is always 0 degree?
...

Oh my God! An "always 0 degree" phase angle that could be shifted? J.W. Gibbs and H.v. Helmholtz must be turning in their grave with such a question.  C.C
   
img  poynt99
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #182 on: 2011-06-21, 13:11:20 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2011-06-21, 06:15:28
From the link you provided:

"...When there is inductive reactance present in the circuit, the phase of the current will be shifted so that its peaks and valleys do not occur at the same time as those of the voltage...."

Can this happens to a DC source with phase angle is always 0 degree?  Or are you referring to a special case where DC is pulsing? 

Gibbs,

They are referring to the element that exhibits the inductance. So if the CSR has some associated inductance, the voltage across the CSR, and current through it will not be in phase. Since we are using the CSR to determine the battery current, in such a case the measurement will be in error.

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #183 on: 2011-06-21, 14:45:32 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2011-06-19, 04:21:08
Gibbs,

If your input source is DC, the phase angle between the input voltage and current is always 0º.


.99

 Thank you for your reply, Poynt... and your comment, Ex.



Professor, here is my result.

1.37V - 1.10V
Using coil ends for red LED, then 1N4148, then without both

1.37V - 1.10V, red LED, 3m54s, 6.70uW
Cap leak 1.370V-1.360V , cap leak power .274uW
Compensated power, 6.426uW

1.37V - 1.10V, 1N4148, 6m14s , 4.19uW
Cap leak 1.370V-1.357V, cap leak power .223uW
Compensated power, 3.967uW

Additional run with out both, 5m58s
Also cap leak is less when capacitor is exercised, maybe memory recharge. 
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #184 on: 2011-06-21, 21:25:37 »
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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2011-06-21, 14:45:32

Professor, here is my result.

1.37V - 1.10V
Using coil ends for red LED, then 1N4148, then without both

1.37V - 1.10V, red LED, 3m54s, 6.70uW
Cap leak 1.370V-1.360V , cap leak power .274uW
Compensated power, 6.426uW

1.37V - 1.10V, 1N4148, 6m14s , 4.19uW
Cap leak 1.370V-1.357V, cap leak power .223uW
Compensated power, 3.967uW

Additional run with out both, 5m58s
Also cap leak is less when capacitor is exercised, maybe memory recharge. 

Very impressive results, Gibbs!   O0  4 uW is in line with what Xee2 and nul-pts are getting...

Now, can you tell us what circuit you used?  A schematic would of course be great.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #185 on: 2011-06-22, 03:16:14 »
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Circuit info:

PNP 3906
4700 uF input
1 MOhm pot
.01uF
28 turns 24AWG magnet wire bifilar on 5/8'' radioshack toroid (roughly measured with a ruler)
   
img  NickZ
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #186 on: 2011-06-22, 07:03:36 »
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  Gibbs:
  Looks like a very cheap and easy circuit to replicate, and interestingly simple.  I just picked up the a package of 15 Radio Shack PNP 2n3906 Transistors (part # 276-1604),  for super cheap. For just a few bucks,  15 of them.
   Would be interested in more info on the Radio Shack toroid(s), that you use,  core type, specs. etz... as there are those stores here in Costa Rica.  I'll also check on Radio Shack for toroids,  since I have not been able to get any ferrite cores here, so far.             NickZ
     
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #187 on: 2011-06-22, 07:09:27 »
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Hi, Nick.  
This is essentially the same as the sj1 circuit, with PNP replaced the NPN, and taking some R's out as I have also mentioned doing.  
Anyway, that doesn't really matter  -- great work, Gibbs.

Could you tell us -- for your ~4uW run, what resistance did you have on the pot?  and where did you connect the LED?
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #188 on: 2011-06-22, 14:29:20 »
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Hi NickZ,

I didn't think the toroid would be that important.  I also use air core. 

Professor,

I connected the LED to coil ends and not emitter-collector to compare with the 1N4148.  The pot resistance was 1MOhm on full. 

Right now I'm testing on connecting a red LED from base to emitter and an additional pot from collector to coil for tuning.  If I record correctly this is a looping setup, but have to test some more with different tuning and coils. 

GH
   
img  poynt99
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #189 on: 2011-06-22, 14:34:43 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Gibbs,

Your circuit is different than what the Professor is currently testing, as the reactance circuit is in the collector, vs. in the emitter. Yours is truer to the original JT circuit, other than it uses a PNP instead of a NPN. Other than that, it's pretty much identical to the original JT.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #190 on: 2011-06-22, 15:26:25 »
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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2011-06-22, 14:29:20
Hi NickZ,

I didn't think the toroid would be that important.  I also use air core. 

Professor,

I connected the LED to coil ends and not emitter-collector to compare with the 1N4148.  The pot resistance was 1MOhm on full. 

Right now I'm testing on connecting a red LED from base to emitter and an additional pot from collector to coil for tuning.  If I record correctly this is a looping setup, but have to test some more with different tuning and coils. 

GH

Thanks for the responses, GH.  Do you see the LED go out or dim, then re-brighten with lower Pinput, at a certain voltage, with this variation?
and --   How does the air core compare with the toroid? 
Please continue your investigations! 
   
img  NickZ
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #191 on: 2011-06-22, 16:15:41 »
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   Guys:
   Radio Shack does not have any toroids for sale that I can find in their web site. 
   Gibbs:  Yes, the coil is one of the most important and variable components.  The more common Iron Powder cores will work but will not give the best results.  I understand that the Goldmine 1" ferrite cores are out of stock, so now what to we do?  What kind of results did you have with the air cores?
   I do notice the led will go out at almost no resistance level on the pot.  I use 1k, 2k, and 5k pots mostly. Each pots acts differently, so the led light will also act differently when using different pots, or differnt leds, and also when the voltage drops.  That also affects the output coming from the possible sweet spot.  That's why its important to use a steady non variable voltage source, or the tuning of the sweet spot will be lost, as resonance will depend on a having a steady voltage.
     JouleSeeker has just confirmed that his two day test run using a single AA on his device resulted in no voltage drop, or hardly any.  So, that to me is even more important than the cap test he is doing.  Cap tests have only shown discharging of the capacitor, while the two day AA test shows hardly no loss, at all. Both results are interesting.

   Below are some of the circuits that I've been playing with lately.  The first was a Kooler replication, using a tiny core with a secondary to light three leds,  although I've taken one of them out.   All the different cores give quite different results, using otherwise the same components.  My circuits are mostly Kooler replications, but I'll try a couple circuits using the 2n3906 trans. and also some air cores, as I can't get any ferrites here in Costa Rica.
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #192 on: 2011-06-22, 23:30:19 »
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Gibbs -- I got your circuit running here, dimmer than the others perhaps but LED is lit.
Conditions:

PNP 3906
10000 uF input
390Kohm
.01uF
20 turns 22AWG magnet wire bifilar on 1" e-goldmine toroid

Runs at ~310 Hz here.

Nick -- email me your snail-mail address and I'd be glad to send you a 1" e-goldmine toroid; I have an extra.

Gotta run - my daughter is having a baby!  Hurray!  :)
   
img  lanenal
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #193 on: 2011-06-23, 07:21:08 »
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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2011-06-22, 03:16:14
Circuit info:

PNP 3906
4700 uF input
1 MOhm pot
.01uF
28 turns 24AWG magnet wire bifilar on 5/8'' radioshack toroid (roughly measured with a ruler)

Gibbs,

Thanks for the nice circuit. As I was comparing yours with Professor's, I figured out another way to use PNP transistor in the circuit. Please see below for the simulation and circuit.
   
img  lanenal
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #194 on: 2011-06-23, 07:55:53 »
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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2011-06-18, 17:45:32
Lane,

I was very impressed with your looping technique.  I had a lot of fun trying to looped the JT past weeks with your technique.  This is why I know COP>1 is real, but it won't be in the form of charge.  One can see if the circuit reached COP>1 easily with both cap/stopwatch and dual DMM method! The cap/stopwatch method is always be less than or equal to Dual DMM method.  The energy consuming from the capacitor is a real component, there is no if, and, or but about it.  The dual DMM method is not totally invalid.  We can use it to determine the phase angle and calculate the ratio of heat&radiation: energy dissipate from cap.  It is now important to get this thing in a chamber where not only heat, but radiation can be efficiently captured.  

Gibbs, Thanks a lot for sharing your experiments with this looping technique. Here again I am putting up another (simpler) looping circuit. Please see the attached. From the trace plot you see that the battery is getting charged in each cycle. Similar modification can be made to the PNP transistor based circuit to make it self-charging. You can replace a LED in place of the 1N4148 diode.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #195 on: 2011-06-24, 04:06:39 »
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Professor,

Thank you for checking the circuit out.  Congratulation on your good news.

Thanks Lane.  Your PNP circuit is the professor's design.  Mine is Xee's circuit in PNP. 
About the looping, I am still tuning it.  My experience is that there are two types of loop.  One with capacitor and one without the capacitor.  The one without capacitor is at much lower efficiency than the cap loop.   On my circuit, after putting the LED from base to emitter, the 1 Mohm is just for show(jump start).  One can remove it and let the circuit self oscillate.  Red LED is very bright.  The smaller cap value, the smaller the input.  I've also notice the frequency is locked on the coil.  Big coils low frequency, seems like it has auto coil frequency locked down function lol (not too surprised with the JTs)  My 14AWG air core shows 2+ Mhz on the meter.
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #196 on: 2011-06-24, 13:32:48 »
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Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2011-06-24, 04:06:39
Professor,

Thank you for checking the circuit out.  Congratulation on your good news.

Thanks Lane.  Your PNP circuit is the professor's design.  Mine is Xee's circuit in PNP. 
About the looping, I am still tuning it.  My experience is that there are two types of loop.  One with capacitor and one without the capacitor.  The one without capacitor is at much lower efficiency than the cap loop.   On my circuit, after putting the LED from base to emitter, the 1 Mohm is just for show(jump start).  One can remove it and let the circuit self oscillate.  Red LED is very bright.  The smaller cap value, the smaller the input.  I've also notice the frequency is locked on the coil.  Big coils low frequency, seems like it has auto coil frequency locked down function lol (not too surprised with the JTs)  My 14AWG air core shows 2+ Mhz on the meter.

Thanks, Gibbs, but we're still awaiting the arrival of the little grandchild.  Another false alarm yesterday, but that is to be "expected" I guess.

I'm intrigued that you're able to to remove the 1Mohm and let the circuit self oscillate, and also that the LED is very bright.  I can't accomplish either of those with my build of your design -- do you have any suggestions??   Also, what sort of Pinput are you measuring for your DUT?
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #197 on: 2011-06-24, 14:10:38 »
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Wow... interesting.  I thought it was so simple to get it self oscillate.  I can understand the problem between successful experiment and replication now.  Let's diagnose it then.

I use a 1.2V battery.  It considered dead because brand new is 1.5V+ . 
Try to maintain the 1 Mohm connected to see if the LED light up.
Use big Capacitor first.  Too small cap won't work.
Too big coil won't work either.  I think your 20 turns is fine.
Dial the 1 Mohm down to see if LED light up.
Try low LED forward voltage drop.
Make sure you have LED connected correctly.  Current should flow from base back to emitter (battery). 
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #198 on: 2011-06-24, 14:13:22 »
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   I was however to get my build of Xee2's circuit (NPN) to self-oscillate with the LED glowing brightly (fun!).  This was running with 2 Mohms to the base, and with your suggestion, I simply disconnected this Rbase, and the DUT continued to operate unabated, LED bright.

edit:  just saw your response -- thanks.  will play with my build of your PNP approach a bit more...
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #199 on: 2011-07-06, 18:29:28 »
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Lasersaber has done a build of this circuit with a few mods and experimental tests.  Very interesting IMO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS2W_48_QKQ
   
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