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Author Topic: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only.  (Read 167570 times)
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img  lanenal
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #50 on: 2011-05-28, 12:27:16 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-05-20, 05:12:47
Ferrite toroid 1"OD, 0.5"ID, 7/16" high, electronic goldmine G6683 or whatever you've got - try it.
Insulated Cu, 22 gauge (20-23). Now fun part: Bifilar winding CW, see attachment, 9 (+/-) turns.
 Combined pair to point 7, then one wire to C-B, other to point 4 (schm).  O0

This might be of interest for some who would like to replicate:

[quote link=http://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/archive/index.php/t-39439.html]
I just ran some tests on that 5-pack of toroids I received from Electronic Goldmine: G6683
The Al value is around 10,000, which is quite high.
10 turns of magnet wire gave me 936uH; 20 turns were 4mH.
[/quote]
   
img  lanenal
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #51 on: 2011-05-28, 13:18:05 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2011-05-28, 12:03:46
I built the real circuit yesterday. I have some problem for it to work. I was unable to make oscillate a 2N2222A.
With a transistor better designed for HF frequencies, such 2N2369 or 2N2218, the circuit oscillates but at frequencies around 80 Mhz! Obviously this frequency is not related to L and C values. I tried with 2 different toroids and coils, and I got similar results. Moreover one of the two coils can be reversed and the oscillation remains the same.
The only result according to the simulation is the "modulation" of the HF signal by a signal of much lower frequency, linked to the time constant RbCb, only when Cb is exceeding a certain threshold value (that I don't know, I used a variable capacitor).
For me it is a variant of a Colpitt's oscillator, so I don't see what is wrong.   :(

It seems to me, the frequency is related to Rb, C, L, as well as the factor K between Lb and Lo.
The 80MHz of your build is sooo high...could that be the reason that your 2N2222 does not work?
Could you simulate the values of your Rb, C, L in your LTSpice?
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #52 on: 2011-05-28, 13:26:05 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-05-28, 07:23:13
Good questions, DonL.  151 pF is what I had several of, readily available -- a constant cap.
Yes, once the toroid was wound, it was about 90uH and could be varied with +/- windings, but left as a constant.
The combination in a tank circuit gives 1.37 MHz, as you say,  the end result of using those 2 components.
I should add that sometimes the scope has difficulty picking out the frequency... until I properly adjust the trigger (sometimes, I don't bother with that).


  I've already noted, laneal, that " sometimes the scope has difficulty picking out the frequency... until I properly adjust the trigger (sometimes, I don't bother with that)."     Haven't you experienced that?  The trigger can pick out two prominent peaks, for example, and end up with twice the frequency shown on the scope, than when just one cycle is picked out by the trigger.  But note that the f determination does not affect the measurement of the MEAN power, which is taken over Numerous cycles.

It is interesting to evaluate the resonant frequency of the as-built device, and that freq may well depend on various factors, besides Lb and Cb, I agree.  It will be fun to map out how the resonant f changes with variations.  

  When I take the time to adjust the trigger, then the freq measured on the input side, and on the output side, is the same, @ 1.37 MHz  -- with small variations which I ascribe to temperature changes and the like.  

@Groundloop -- I give you full credit for pointing me in this direction!  Before your posts, I had not tried the "reverse JT circuit".  Very helpful, and that's why I say "we are in this together" in this open-source development.  As I recall, you had the LED oriented in the "wrong direction" -- corrected by EMDevices.  I also added a resistor in series with the LED (later replaced with a diode for some tests in my lab), and a resistor Ro -- both variable resistors which allowed for tuning.  Thus, we work together in developing a functioning, tunable device.  

I hope I emphasized sufficiently on the vid by Sterling that this device needs to be replicated and thoroughly checked out by others before one is sure of overunity!

  XN -- very glad that you are building the circuit!   Glad that you got it to ring with a different transistor. I used an MPS2222 transistor, as I said in an early post.  
 Les Kraut already did a replication, and it did ring on the first try actually.  He used 2Kohms on the Rb, and about 9 turns on the bifilar-wound toroid.
   
img  lanenal
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #53 on: 2011-05-28, 13:56:36 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-05-28, 13:26:05
 I've already noted, laneal, that " sometimes the scope has difficulty picking out the frequency... until I properly adjust the trigger (sometimes, I don't bother with that)."     Haven't you experienced that?  The trigger can pick out two prominent peaks, for example, and end up with twice the frequency shown on the scope, than when just one cycle is picked out by the trigger.  But note that the f determination does not affect the measurement of the MEAN power, which is taken over Numerous cycles.

It is interesting to evaluate the resonant frequency of the as-built device, and that freq may well depend on various factors, besides Lb and Cb, I agree.  It will be fun to map out how the resonant f changes with variations.  

  When I take the time to adjust the trigger, then the freq measured on the input side, and on the output side, is the same, @ 1.37 MHz  -- with small variations which I ascribe to temperature changes and the like.  

Thanks for the explanation. Unfortunately, I don't have such a nice scope. I only worked with the LTSpice simulator, which has a psudo scope.

I don't quite understand the scope shot you have got there in the 2nd post. On the left, the math duration was 2.0us, on the right, the math duration was 200ns -- could you also explain that difference of time duration? Another question: if the frequency was 1.37MHz, then why your scope shots looks so irregular on the right with only 200ns duration? I suggest that for better comparison, both shots should have the same time duration on the scope (since you also seem to agree that both sides have the same frequency).

lanenal
   
img  Groundloop
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #54 on: 2011-05-28, 14:01:00 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-05-28, 13:26:05
 I've already noted, laneal, that " sometimes the scope has difficulty picking out the frequency... until I properly adjust the trigger (sometimes, I don't bother with that)."     Haven't you experienced that?  The trigger can pick out two prominent peaks, for example, and end up with twice the frequency shown on the scope, than when just one cycle is picked out by the trigger.  But note that the f determination does not affect the measurement of the MEAN power, which is taken over Numerous cycles.

It is interesting to evaluate the resonant frequency of the as-built device, and that freq may well depend on various factors, besides Lb and Cb, I agree.  It will be fun to map out how the resonant f changes with variations.  

  When I take the time to adjust the trigger, then the freq measured on the input side, and on the output side, is the same, @ 1.37 MHz  -- with small variations which I ascribe to temperature changes and the like.  

@Groundloop -- I give you full credit for pointing me in this direction!  Before your posts, I had not tried the "reverse JT circuit".  Very helpful, and that's why I say "we are in this together" in this open-source development.  As I recall, you had the LED oriented in the "wrong direction" -- corrected by EMDevices.  I also added a resistor in series with the LED (later replaced with a diode for some tests in my lab), and a resistor Ro -- both variable resistors which allowed for tuning.  Thus, we work together in developing a functioning, tunable device.  

I hope I emphasized sufficiently on the vid by Sterling that this device needs to be replicated and thoroughly checked out by others before one is sure of overunity!

  XN -- very glad that you are building the circuit!   Glad that you got it to ring with a different transistor. I used an MPS2222 transistor, as I said in an early post.  
 Les Kraut already did a replication, and it did ring on the first try actually.  He used 2Kohms on the Rb, and about 9 turns on the bifilar-wound toroid.

@PhysicsProf,

Yes, open source is the way to go. I did not use a LED in my circuit. I did use a diode to indicate a power output.

I'm now trying out the same emitter following method in my figure8 circuit (posted in my bench) to see if I
get better results. The figure8 circuit is a nonlinear circuit and very difficult to get running and tuned. I did
blow my old BUX80 transistors and did replace them with BUX98A transistors. Now the circuit does not
perform as it was new. I can hardly get any output at all. So back to the lab an find out whats wrong. LOL
The figure8 circuit is my first attempt to scale it up to some useful power levels.

Groundloop.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #55 on: 2011-05-28, 14:35:46 »
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Quote from: lanenal on 2011-05-28, 13:18:05
It seems to me, the frequency is related to Rb, C, L, as well as the factor K between Lb and Lo.
The 80MHz of your build is sooo high...could that be the reason that your 2N2222 does not work?

Hi lanenal,

Problem solved. You are right. My toroidal coil had not enough inductance and probably the ferrite was not suited for the involved frequencies. I replaced it by a big toroid of quite high mu ferrite, and 2 x 16 turns coils. Now all transistors work at frequencies compatible with the simulation, included the 2N2222. Further tests needed.

Quote
Could you simulate the values of your Rb, C, L in your LTSpice?

In a future step. My priority is now the measurements of the real circuit because LTspice is of poor help outside conventional electronics.


   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #56 on: 2011-05-28, 14:48:35 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2011-05-28, 14:35:46
Hi lanenal,

Problem solved. You are right. My toroidal coil had not enough inductance and probably the ferrite was not suited for the involved frequencies. I replaced it by a big toroid of quite high mu ferrite, and 2 x 16 turns coils. Now all transistors work at frequencies compatible with the simulation, included the 2N2222. Further tests needed.

In a future step. My priority is now the measurements of the real circuit because LTspice is of poor help outside conventional electronics.


Right!  thanks for your replication XN, hope to hear regarding your results here.

@laneal --
Quote
"
I suggest that for better comparison, both shots should have the same time duration on the scope (since you also seem to agree that both sides have the same frequency)."
Please see my post #5, which data now I wish had been in post #1 -- since most seem to look at those data rather than the data in post #5, which has both shots of the same time duration.  I agree this is helpful -- and I repost the data here for all.
Note that the  mean output Power -- taken over many cycles -- is approx 10 mW, whereas the mean input Power is less, around 1.3 mW.   Data acquired using a Tek 3032.  This was actually one of my first tests of this sj1-circuit, taken April 1, 2011.  Not an April fool's joke!
 I have re-checked the results and I don't think I made a mistake in measurement.  Also, the replication by Les Kraut showed more Pout than Pin.  And so I'm asking others to replicate and check this circuit.
   
img  lanenal
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #57 on: 2011-05-28, 15:43:50 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-05-28, 14:48:35
Right!  thanks for your replication XN, hope to hear regarding your results here.

Good luck, XN!

Quote
@laneal -- Please see my post #5, which data now I wish had been in post #1 -- since most seem to look at those data rather than the data in post #5, which has both shots of the same time duration.  I agree this is helpful -- and I repost the data here for all.
Note that the  mean output Power -- taken over many cycles -- is approx 10 mW, whereas the mean input Power is less, around 1.3 mW.  Data acquired using a Tek 3032.  This was actually one of my first tests of this sj1-circuit, taken April 1, 2011.  Not an April fool's joke!
 I have re-checked the results and I don't think I made a mistake in measurement.  Also, the replication by Les Kraut showed more Pout than Pin.  And so I'm asking others to replicate and check this circuit.

This give me much more confidence in your measurements, thanks for pointing this out to me!
Have you thought of using a dc-dc converter to loop the circuit? See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC-to-DC_converter

Note that "Most DC to DC converters are designed to move power in only one direction, from the input to the output."
So it would be ideal to use Cout and connect to the input of a dc-dc converter, which will supply the power for the JT. Of course, will need the battery in the beginning to get it started.

cheers,

lanenal
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #58 on: 2011-05-28, 16:37:59 »
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First measurements. See the asc for the circuit.

Rout is the charge. It's value is 1K which fits well the output impedance (when connected, the output voltage from the diode is approximately divided by 2).
I monitor:
- the emitter voltage to check the oscillation (Oscillo Tektronix 2232, probe 1)
- the voltage Vout on Rout (probe 2)
- the collector voltage Vc (HP3468A multimeter)
- the current I from the power voltage, which can be adjusted (analog multimeter 20.000ohm/volt, in series with the power supply and previously checked with the high precision HP3468A).

Input power = Vc*I.
Output power = Vout2/Rout. As Rout=1K, Vout2 gives directly the output power in mW.
All values are cc

I have tested different conditions :
Diode as on the schematics or reversed. Best efficiency is with the diode as on the schematics.
Rb tested from 82K down to 2.2K. The higher the value, the better the efficiency.
Cb from hundreds of pF down to 15pF. 15pF is the best, with a frequency around 1 Mhz.
I took several measures while changing step by step the voltage from the power supply.

The efficiency varies between 25% and 60%, depending on all these parameters. OU is not attained with this method.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #59 on: 2011-05-28, 21:07:48 »
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Second measurement method, see the asc.

I measure the input power Vc*I as in the first method. I=2.7mA, Vc=10,18v => P=27.5mW=27.5 mJ/s
After 1mn C1 (2200µF) is charged at 20.2v. The C1 voltage is permanently monitored with the HP3468A multimeter. Note that its connection adds parasitic capacitances between the output of each diode and the ground: it is a well known phenomenon of this double diode configuration, that improves the charge of C1 (at the expense of the current that has to be provided).

The energy in the capacitor is: E=1/2*C*U²=0.5*2.2*10-3*20.22= 449mJ
The input power was: 27.5*60=1650mJ. Efficiency: 449/1650=27%. No ou.

I noted that the capacitor voltage increases at a  constant rate, for example 0.3v/s. The energy being proportional to the voltage squared, in the same unit of time more energy is provided when the capacitor is already charged than when it is empty.
So I led another measurement with C1 charging from U1=10v up to U2=18.6v. It needs 30s. Energy was 1/2*C*U22-1/2*C*U12=270mJ.
During this charge, the input was I=1.5mA and Vc=10v, P=15mW. Input energy=15*30=450mJ.

Efficiency 270/450=60%. Still no overunity but we see that when the charge is less because the capacitor is already partly charged and don't "shortcuts" the diodes, the efficiency is much better and nevertheless more energy is provided by each unit of time.

« Last Edit: 2011-05-28, 21:46:25 by exnihiloest »
   
img  gotoluc
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #60 on: 2011-05-29, 05:26:29 »
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Hi everyone,

I couldn't resist testing this circuit a la gotoluc way ;)

I winded on a Metglas 1" o.d. with 1/2" i.d. 7 turns to get close to 90uH

The only resistor I used in the circuit (other than the load) is a 1 meg pot adjusted to 266K to the 2N2222 base. I connected a diode in series to a 30,000uf cap where the output led is in the circuit and used a 4700 Ohm 2% resistor (close to a led load) as load on to cap. A DVM measures the DC voltage across the caps resistor to find true Pout.

I used an old 3 vdc battery as input power to the circuit connected through my special dual 3,900uf capacitors with dual volt meters to get source voltage and voltage across a 10 Ohm 1% resistor to obtain an accurate current reading. This measurement meter was a suggestion by .99 and I have been using it for the past 3 years on pulse circuits to obtaining real time current draw. It has proven to be a very accurate measurement method.

After my first tests I decided to re-wind the toroid to a higher inductance (now about 3.5mH) which reduced the input current by 20% while maintaining the same voltage on the output load.

The shots below are my best results to date but no OU

Luc

« Last Edit: 2011-05-29, 06:27:24 by gotoluc »
   
img  Groundloop
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #61 on: 2011-05-29, 05:30:48 »
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Quote from: gotoluc on 2011-05-29, 05:26:29
Hi everyone,

I couldn't resist testing this circuit a la gotoluc way ;)

I winded on a Metglas 1" o.d. with 1/2" i.d. 7 turns to get close to 90uH

The only resistor I used in the circuit (other than the load) is a 1 meg pot adjusted to 690K to the 2N2222 base. I connected a diode in series to a 30,000uf cap where the output led is in the circuit and used a 4700 Ohm resistor (close to a led load) as load on to cap. A DVM measures the DC voltage across the caps resistor to find true Pout.

I used an old 3 vdc battery as input power to the circuit connected through my special dual 4,700uf capacitor with dual volt meters to get source voltage and voltage across a 10 Ohm 1% resistor to obtain an accurate current reading. This measurement meter was a suggestion by .99 and I have been using it for the past 3 years on pulse circuits to obtaining real time current draw. It has proven to be a very accurate measurement method.

After my first tests I decided re-wounded the toroid to a higher inductance (now about 3.5mH) which reduced the input current by 20% while maintaining the same voltage on the output load.

The shots below are the best results but no OU

Luc



Luc,

Please check your uploaded data again. They are identical?

Edit: Thanks for fixing the upload. :-)

GL.
   
img  gotoluc
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #62 on: 2011-05-29, 05:34:39 »
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Quote from: Groundloop on 2011-05-29, 05:30:48
Luc,

Please check your uploaded data again. They are identical?

GL.

Yes I know!  I'm trying to fix it but it keeps coming back that way for some reason ???

Luc

EDIT Okay I fixed it! the problem was me :P

I did more changes  I took the reading on the pot on the wrong side. It's adjusted to 266K Ohm to get the input to 1 ma. I also had a small change on the Pout
« Last Edit: 2011-05-29, 06:13:17 by gotoluc »
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #63 on: 2011-05-29, 06:17:08 »
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Quote from: gotoluc on 2011-05-29, 05:26:29
Hi everyone,

I couldn't resist testing this circuit a la gotoluc way ;)

I winded on a Metglas 1" o.d. with 1/2" i.d. 7 turns to get close to 90uH

The only resistor I used in the circuit (other than the load) is a 1 meg pot adjusted to 266K to the 2N2222 base. I connected a diode in series to a 30,000uf cap where the output led is in the circuit and used a 4700 Ohm 2% resistor (close to a led load) as load on to cap. A DVM measures the DC voltage across the caps resistor to find true Pout.

I used an old 3 vdc battery as input power to the circuit connected through my special dual 3,900uf capacitors with dual volt meters to get source voltage and voltage across a 10 Ohm 1% resistor to obtain an accurate current reading. This measurement meter was a suggestion by .99 and I have been using it for the past 3 years on pulse circuits to obtaining real time current draw. It has proven to be a very accurate measurement method.

After my first tests I decided re-wind the toroid to a higher inductance (now about 3.5mH) which reduced the input current by 20% while maintaining the same voltage on the output load.

The shots below are my best results to date but no OU

Luc



I appreciate your doing a replication, Luc, but it certainly is not clear HOW YOU PERFORMED THE POUT MEASUREMENTS.   Pls explain, including where you attached your probes.

I have attached your measurements, juxtaposed for convenience.   V= 1.067 Volts across the 4700ohm Rout resistor -- is that correct?  RMS, Mean, what?  Also, how do you get the current in the output leg, and what is it?
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #64 on: 2011-05-29, 06:22:15 »
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  I'm responding also to queries over at OU -- linking here if you wish to read:  
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10773.15

I'm pursuing alternative/additional methods for checking results as explained on the vid and elsewhere; in brief:
I realize there are limits to the oscilloscope method outlined and used, and that is why I am trying other methods as well.

 Another method I've started is to compare the temperature rise in the two matched (1-ohm) CSR's.  If indeed there is more current circulating in the output leg of the circuit, that resistor CSR(out) should show a greater temp rise than CSR(in).  That is the simplest non-oscilloscope test I have thought of so far...[/b

What do you think -- is this a good method, or not (and why)? :  
Quote
compare the temperature rise in the two matched (1-ohm) CSR's.  If indeed there is more current circulating in the output leg of the circuit, that resistor CSR(out) should show a greater temp rise than CSR(in).
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #65 on: 2011-05-29, 06:31:29 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
The theory is sound Professor, but there is the issue of the relatively low powers you are dealing with, i.e. 10's of mW, and it is likely that the CSR's will not heat up much above ambient. This could pose a problem especially if the true Pin and Pout are close in value.

You're also facing the requirement for a temperature meter with 10ths of degrees of resolution, or better.

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #66 on: 2011-05-29, 06:46:29 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2011-05-29, 06:31:29
The theory is sound Professor, but there is the issue of the relatively low powers you are dealing with, i.e. 10's of mW, and it is likely that the CSR's will not heat up much above ambient. This could pose a problem especially if the true Pin and Pout are close in value.

You're also facing the requirement for a temperature meter with 10ths of degrees of resolution, or better.

.99

Thank you for confirming the approach, .99 -- I like the simplicity of it.  Now, as to how much the CSR's heat up:
1.  depends on how they are insulated
2.  depends on how much we can scale up the input and output power -- especially the output power!

 If the output CSR heats up while the input CSR heating is below what we can measure, that result is still significant (further comments welcomed).
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #67 on: 2011-05-29, 06:55:47 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-05-29, 06:17:08
I appreciate your doing a replication, Luc, but it certainly is not clear HOW YOU PERFORMED THE POUT MEASUREMENTS.   Pls explain, including where you attached your probes.

I have attached your measurements, juxtaposed for convenience.   V= 1.067 Volts across the 4700ohm Rout resistor -- is that correct?  RMS, Mean, what?  Also, how do you get the current in the output leg, and what is it?

Hello PhysicsProf,

all my measurements are done in DC, no scope used.

Pre the circuit a DVM in DC measures the voltage (milli volts) across a 10 Ohm resistor which is connected between two 3,900uf capacitors to smooth out pulses. So Pin is measured in DC Amps by V/R=I

Yes, Pout is V= 1.067 Volts across the 4700ohm Rout resistor... however this is also now DC (30,000uf cap)

I use this online calculator to get the shots I posted above: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm

I hope my explanation helped. If not, I'm sorry but I can't do any better as I have no schooling. All I know and do has been self taught.

Many here know my research style and they can help if you need more information on this.

Luc
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #68 on: 2011-05-29, 07:13:34 »
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Luc:  
Quote
Yes, Pout is V= 1.067 Volts across the 4700ohm Rout resistor... however this is also now DC (30,000uf cap)

I don't understand -- where is the 30K uF cap placed?  just use words if you can't do a schematic drawing.  
1.067 V across the 4700 Ohm Rout is significantly low, compared to my circuit and the replication by Les K.

This is a start, but would you also kindly address how you measured the output current as I asked you?  
So far, your Pout measurement makes little sense, sorry.  Pls add a little more explanation.


PS -- @ .99 : I will also move CSRin to the other side of Vin for this test, to further isolate CSRin from the matched CSRout.  Both greater than 1ohm, certainly.  Rb would remain, but other resistors would be eliminated.  Replace the battery with a big Cap, to eliminate internal resistance of Vinput.  
The goal is to compare Pin vs Pout using CSRin and CSRout only, comparing heat rise in these...  Not sure I can see how to make this work, especially for Pin via a sensing resistor.   Pout via a dump-resistor is relatively easy.  BUT any comments on how to make this heat-rise-in-resistors  method work would be appreciated.   
Thanks, Steve.
« Last Edit: 2011-05-29, 07:46:13 by PhysicsProf »
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #69 on: 2011-05-29, 12:35:56 »

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Hi all,

i made an attempt to replicate this circuit, but as we already found out before, the problem is the Pout.
How to accurately measure that.

Anyway, i made a coil, both windings are 12 turns, and measure 0.93mH (930uH)!
Rb is a 2.2K resistor,
Cb is 140pF,
Rr is a 3.3 Ohm resistor
Do is a white led
Ro is a combo, 5.6K resistor and 5K potentiometer
csrin and out are both 1 Ohm resistors
Using a 2N2222A transistor
Frequency turns out to be around 525Khz.
Using 1 rechargeable AA battery with about 1.195V

Using the dual DMM method (low pass filter) for Pin, i found it to be around 40mW
But now how to measure the Pout correctly, that's the question.

I got some suggestions to dump the output (over the Ro) into a cap, but still then, how to measure the Power?
The csrout is floating, so no way to measure there with my scope.

Anyway, i am open for suggestions and meanwhile will try to find some way.

(i am thinking to separate the output pulses directly taken from the collector via a 1:1 transformer/toroid,
use a FWBR and a cap to create DC, then put a load on it (bulp), and measure there the voltage/current).

I video of this attempt is to be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV4xMeZ_41Y

Regards Itsu
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #70 on: 2011-05-29, 14:00:37 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2011-05-29, 12:35:56
Hi all,

i made an attempt to replicate this circuit, but as we already found out before, the problem is the Pout.
How to accurately measure that.

Anyway, i made a coil, both windings are 12 turns, and measure 0.93mH (930uH)!
Rb is a 2.2K resistor,
Cb is 140pF,
Rr is a 3.3 Ohm resistor
Do is a white led
Ro is a combo, 5.6K resistor and 5K potentiometer
csrin and out are both 1 Ohm resistors
Using a 2N2222A transistor
Frequency turns out to be around 525Khz.
Using 1 rechargeable AA battery with about 1.195V

Using the dual DMM method (low pass filter) for Pin, i found it to be around 40mW
But now how to measure the Pout correctly, that's the question.

I got some suggestions to dump the output (over the Ro) into a cap, but still then, how to measure the Power?
The csrout is floating, so no way to measure there with my scope.

Anyway, i am open for suggestions and meanwhile will try to find some way.

(i am thinking to separate the output pulses directly taken from the collector via a 1:1 transformer/toroid,
use a FWBR and a cap to create DC, then put a load on it (bulp), and measure there the voltage/current).

I video of this attempt is to be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV4xMeZ_41Y

Regards Itsu



   Your replication is much appreciated, Itsu.    I understand the difficulty in measuring Pin and Pout...

I see the .99 approach to measure the input power Pin by measuring the current across CSRin and multiplying by the battery voltage.  However, when I look at the INSTANTANEOUS Pin waveform on the Tek 3032, I see that Pin fluctuates around zero, and the MEAN (not RMS) value of the Pin is close to zero.  (Same result using my ATTEN scope and looking at the power waveform, integrating by hand over one cycle.)  I believe this result, from the Power waveform on the oscilloscope, disagrees with the .99 method.

  I would like to see a direct comparison of the two methods for Pin.

Further, when I ran my sj1 circuit using a single AA rechargeable battery overnight,  the battery voltage had not dropped measurably the next morning, over nine hours running.  So I do not think that the circuit was drawing 40 mW.


So I'm questioning even the measurement method for Pin here.

 I would like to find a method using heat-rise in resistors and comparing Pin and Pout more directly, but not sure how to do this either.   I'm thinking now of a separate circuit for Pin -- in which the voltage from a battery is MATCHED, divided equally between the sj1 circuit and a simple power-sensing resistor (PSRin).  Then I think the power dissipated in this PSRin will match the power dissipated in the test circuit, since the voltages from the battery are EQUAL.
Finally, the output power is determined by looking at the Power dissipated in the output resistor Ro.

Again, thanks for this effort to find understanding via careful measurements.
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #71 on: 2011-05-29, 14:19:34 »
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  Here's another method, from a discussion (my portion just now) at OU:

Quote from: Omega_0 on 2011-05-29, 08:38:02
Prof Jones,

You are indeed doing a work of great value and I respect your open-mindedness and understanding. I hope something interesting will come out of this circuit.

If you seriously consider heat measurements then you will need a high end calorimeter. It needs to be scaled up into watts range to be above error margins. The heat is not much in this version but the good thing with calorimetry is that you can leave it running for hours and have a cumulative effect. It is the final measurement for any OU setup.
...

  
Quote
My reply:  Hmmm...  I may have access to a high-end calorimeter.  But I'm trying to figure out just how one would use it.  Perhaps put the entire device in the calorimeter -- except for the output leg of the circuit (Diode + resistor Ro).  The CSR resistors are superfluous in this measurement method and are removed.   Measure the heat-rise for this "input" portion of the DUT as total Pin, using the calorimeter.  Then place the isolated output leg of the device in the calorimeter and measure the heat-rise separately, as total Pout.

Does this make sense?

This method would require that I obtain use of a high-end calorimeter, of course...  And I'm wondering where to put the toroid itself, in the input or output leg?  Perhaps that won't make much difference...

So I'm wondering about this approach mentioned earlier as an alternative:  
Quote
I'm thinking now of a separate circuit for Pin -- in which the voltage from a battery is MATCHED, divided equally between the sj1 circuit and a simple power-sensing resistor (PSRin).  Then I think the power dissipated in this PSRin will match the power dissipated in the test circuit, since the voltages from the battery are EQUAL.
Finally, the output power is determined by looking at the Power dissipated in the output resistor Ro.

Comments welcomed.  Note this on a "thermal converter" -- including a Fluke meter using this method:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_RMS_converter
(Thanks to Omega at OU for calling this to my attention.)
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #72 on: 2011-05-29, 15:50:00 »
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OK -- more pondering.  The simplest experimental test I can think of using a calorimeter -- place the ENTIRE circuit in a calorimeter with the only source of energy being a capacitor (say 10F) in place of the battery.  The available energy Ein is known from Ein = 1/2 CV**2.  Then turn the device on (inside the calorimeter) and let it run.  Calculate the total energy OUTPUT Eout using the calorimeter.

n = Eout / Ein.
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #73 on: 2011-05-29, 17:12:57 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Professor

Perhaps reconsider this method that I have used successfully:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=702.0


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Circuit sj1. Terse and Technical only. « Reply #74 on: 2011-05-29, 18:31:29 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-05-29, 07:13:34

Luc:  
I don't understand -- where is the 30K uF cap placed?  just use words if you can't do a schematic drawing.  
1.067 V across the 4700 Ohm Rout is significantly low, compared to my circuit and the replication by Les K.


Hi PhysicsProf

I used your schematic and edited it to my test.

Co is where is the 30K uF cap placed and Ro is the 4700 Ohm load on the cap. I used a 1N4148 Diode at Do as it worked best from all diodes I tested.

Components:
Transistor is 2N2222
Vin is 2.86vdc battery
Rb is 1 Meg pot adjusted to 266K Ohm
Cb is 125pf cap
Lb and Lo are 3.5mH each on Metglas 1" o.d. x 1/2" i.d. toroid core
Do is 1N4148 diode
Ro is 4.7K Ohm 2% 1/2 watt resistor
Co is 30K uf 30vdc Mallory cap
   
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