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OverUnity Research > Motors > Muller Generator > Romerouk's Muller Replication
2024-11-27, 00:29:46
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Author Topic: Romerouk's Muller Replication  (Read 510781 times)
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img  Grumpy
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #825 on: 2011-07-31, 19:30:34 »

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Quote from: Peterae on 2011-07-31, 16:52:34
Indeed this is quiet mind bending stuff, question is how can we test to see whats going on.

The first thing i can think of is to map the change in momentum and see how it is phased in relation to the induced current and the phase of the magnetic field.
Break the momentum link and we are on a home run.

Anyone got any experiment ideas to unravel this?

I wish i could find a way of monitoring the change in velocity, but i am unable to place an accelerometer on the rotor and i cannot connect a tacho to my bearing shaft because it's fixed.

If you run your generator with a motor and speed control, you can sweep though the speed range and look for sweet spots.  Put the accelerometer on the drive motor or pulley.
   
img  BEP
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #826 on: 2011-08-03, 10:29:48 »
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With all of this quiet I'm wondering if anyone figured out why one of the hall-effects is not facing a magnet.

Instead, it faces the side of a coil.
   
img  wattsup
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #827 on: 2011-08-03, 14:54:03 »
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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011-08-03, 10:29:48
With all of this quiet I'm wondering if anyone figured out why one of the hall-effects is not facing a magnet.
Instead, it faces the side of a coil.

@WW

Please elaborate.

@Peterae

This is not related to your question. I think I realize something about this device that did not dawn on me earlier but I think it is a very important aspect that has been overlooked.

I do most all of my own experiments with coils and my two pulse generators. My baseline is simple. I always use the same output retrieval via a diode to one of my many capacitors. On the cap I will put an LED bank that starts lighting up at 5vdc, plus I will have a volt meter reading the cap. If something happens out of the ordinary, I will see it right away. At 3vdc I will only see it on the meter. At 8vdc on my meter, my LED will be blinding. This is not peak to peak but more an RMS voltage since it is the voltage with my cap loaded. I am not really concerned about precise , measurements because I can still see the gain or loss happening in real time and know from experience what is going on when I make slight changes to the device under test.

But what I have most is that the diode on my capacitor is not one diode, but a terminal holding 6-7 different diodes pointing in parallel to the cap with other ends open. When I pulse a newly built coil or device, one output is on the cap and the other in my hand and I will try each diode and read the output and look at my led bank. Some diodes will give nothing on this new coil but other diodes do give and one of them will give the most. That is the one I will use for this new coil.

So for me, I would say there is something wrong with guys building an elaborate wheel, to then use a standard off the shelf fwbr. Something very wrong indeed. For me, on my own bench work the output diode is the most important and first component and should be chosen with lots of care since all future tests will be dependent on that diode working in the range I am working around to pass and hold my output.

Standard fwbrs are usually used on the secondary of clean AC 60hz driven transformer coils. They may not have the right specs or attributes for the outputs you guys are working with but I could be wrong, but I don't think I am wrong. In any event, you can test your own diodes with your wheel to see if you can find better diodes to make your own fwbrs. Seems to me the standard off the shelf type may be working against your outputs and guys may have to do what I would call "output diode hunting".

What I would do is this granted it is much more trickier to do with a wheel then a set of coils.

Set up your output capacitor. I would say any non-polarized cap with 100uf or more should do. Find all the diodes you can get and make yourself a diode bank as shown below. Put an LED Bank or small bulb on the cap along with your volt meter and even your scope.

1) Run the wheel with only one gen coil, not a pair.
2) Connect one end of the coil to the open terminal and by hand use the other coil end and try each diode one by one checking the output reading on the meter and/or the bulb brightness.

Yes I know with AC it is more confusing but that is not important. With one diode you should be able to pass half the cycle and see how the diode let's the energy pass at your nominal rotor rpm.

3) Once you have found the diode producing the highest or strongest output, use that model to make an fwbr.
4) Try the fwbr on the coil and put the dc output on the cap again via the diode bank to find the best output diode.

Don't take for granted your EE skills in this regard because there are no calculations to predefine what you are looking for. Well for me anyway. I am more hands on. My opinion, the only real component that has been overlooked by all builders is the fwbr and it just so happens that it is the most important component of the lot.

If you change major working parameters or output coil connections, like from parallel to series or to cascading, you then run the device again that way and hunt for the best diode once again. It may be the same you had, but don't take a chance because your next umteen tests will depend on it. Once you have it, keep going.

I guess what I am trying to say is if the wheel is not an ordinary output method then why would you suppose a standard fwbr is all you need to make it work? Whatever method you can elaborate yourself to find the best diodes, since some may elect to make two diode banks each pointing in opposite directions to quickly test both sides of the AC coil at the same time, it is just more fun.

wattsup

PS1: Find your own diodes for your own device. Even if someone tells you to use this one or that one, get as many types as you can on a terminal and test it anyways. Be sure for yourself. Each device will have its own.

PS2: Found this ready made coil. Looks very interesting. What do you think for a small test wheel?
http://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/audio-inductors-ferrite-air-core-iron-dust/sp056-super-power-ferrite-core-6mh-7mh-audio-inductor.html



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img  giantkiller
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #828 on: 2011-08-03, 21:05:02 »

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Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011-08-03, 10:29:48
With all of this quiet I'm wondering if anyone figured out why one of the hall-effects is not facing a magnet.

Instead, it faces the side of a coil.


Monitoring the external resonant bias field...


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img  Peterae
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #829 on: 2011-08-03, 22:48:13 »

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Buy me some coffee
WW
I have the same setup as Rom and it only See's the rotor magnet pole not the driver coil field.

wattsup
I am coding a controller at the moment that PWM controlls the drive coil but also switches a cap across the drive coil when the peak bemf voltage is above the capacitors stored voltage and can in theory i think do away with any diode requirement totally, rectification without diodes  :)

The same controller will work on each gen coil but in this case it will charge 2 caps in series, one for the positive cycle and 1 for the negative cycle then the output voltage is taken from the 2 caps in series, i will also be able to set the phase angle at which the current is taken from the gen coil and also set the phase angle it stops, it will be interesting to see how efficiently i can charge the cap.
   
img  BEP
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #830 on: 2011-08-04, 00:43:49 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2011-08-03, 22:48:13
WW
I have the same setup as Rom and it only See's the rotor magnet pole not the driver coil field.

I would not expect it to see the driver coil field because the sensing axis is perpendicular to the driver coil field.

If radial fields are created on the adjacent gen coils the sensor should see those.

Logic based rectification? Dude, you amaze me  O0
   
img  EMdevices
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #831 on: 2011-08-04, 02:28:48 »
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IF    CoilStatus == 'GivingFreeEnergy'

   Rectifier = ON;

ELSE

  Rectifier = OFF;

END


 ;D
   
img  muDped
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #832 on: 2011-08-04, 04:05:42 »

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Quote from: wattsup on 2011-08-03, 14:54:03
...

So for me, I would say there is something wrong with guys building an elaborate wheel, to then use a standard off the shelf fwbr. Something very wrong indeed. For me, on my own bench work the output diode is the most important and first component and should be chosen with lots of care since all future tests will be dependent on that diode working in the range I am working around to pass and hold my output.

Standard fwbrs are usually used on the secondary of clean AC 60hz driven transformer coils. They may not have the right specs or attributes for the outputs you guys are working with but I could be wrong, but I don't think I am wrong. In any event, you can test your own diodes with your wheel to see if you can find better diodes to make your own fwbrs. Seems to me the standard off the shelf type may be working against your outputs and guys may have to do what I would call "output diode hunting".
...

wattsup

PS1: Find your own diodes for your own device. Even if someone tells you to use this one or that one, get as many types as you can on a terminal and test it anyways. Be sure for yourself. Each device will have its own.
...


Wattsup,

The technical electronic community is just now beginning
to realize that the diode is not as simple as we tend to
think.  At high rates of change in signal the diode can often
act in unexpected and surprisingly disappointing ways.

You are to be commended for your suggestion.  It is always
good policy to subject each and every diode to a process
such as you've implemented.

Another technique which may provide interesting results is
to make use of the full wave voltage doubler configuration
rather than the full wave bridge rectifier.  By rectifying each
half cycle separately in the full wave voltage doubler it is
easy to determine which half cycle of the applied signal is
more productive;  compare the voltages across each of the
two capacitors.

The full wave bridge rectifier seems to be very popular with
experimenters but if they should take a closer look at its
performance they may experience a change of preferences.

Again, kudos.  It is such simple things which can trip us up.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  gridbias
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #833 on: 2011-08-04, 13:14:39 »
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Let me guess...Vacum tube rectifiers might be better ?javascript:void(0);
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #834 on: 2011-08-05, 03:50:02 »
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Well for diodes there are thee basic parameters, the forward bias voltage, the reverse breakdown voltage, and the current handling capacity.  The second and third parameters are not important for a Romerouk build.

So you are left with choosing a diode with a minimum forward bias if you want to reduce the energy losses in the FWBRs.  It's as simple as that, but that doesn't mean you don't do your due diligence and verify them in the application.

Related issues are that you want the pick-up coils to generate a voltage under load that's perhaps 10 times the voltage drop in the diodes themselves so that you loose relatively little energy in the FWBRs as compared to what you export into the load.

So that means you can run the motor at a higher RPM, but there is a trade-off there because your bearing and air friction goes up.

Alternatively you can run at a lower RPM but have more turns in your pick-up coils.  That leads to another trade-off where you increase the losses in the coils themselves due to the higher resistance.

All this implies looking for a sweet spot for maximizing your power output.  If I was Brains from The Thunderbirds I could create a bunch of plots and zero in on that sweet spot.

But there is nothing special or mysterious about diodes.  Either the holes and the electrons don't dance and stay on opposite sides of the room, or the holes and electrons have a mosh-pit-style dance going and when they slam into each other they eliminate each other, kind of like anti-matter meeting matter except no explosion.  They simply open up the dance floor for more party-goers and the mad annihilation dance continues.

That's the ticket.

MileHigh
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #835 on: 2011-08-05, 20:41:58 »

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Quote from: MileHigh on 2011-08-05, 03:50:02
...

But there is nothing special or mysterious about diodes.
...

That's the ticket.

MileHigh

Ah, but there is indeed something both special and mysterious
about semiconductor "diodes" of the various kinds.

Semiconductor "Diodes" can be used for much more than simple
rectification of power or signals.

Their capacitance is uniquely controllable.

Some are used as frequency multipliers and oscillators.

And other awesome applications.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  Room3327
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #836 on: 2011-08-05, 23:27:10 »

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Quote from: MileHigh on 2011-08-05, 03:50:02
Well for diodes there are thee basic parameters, the forward bias voltage, the reverse breakdown voltage, and the current handling capacity.  The second and third parameters are not important for a Romerouk build.

So you are left with choosing a diode with a minimum forward bias if you want to reduce the energy losses in the FWBRs.  It's as simple as that, but that doesn't mean you don't do your due diligence and verify them in the application.

Related issues are that you want the pick-up coils to generate a voltage under load that's perhaps 10 times the voltage drop in the diodes themselves so that you loose relatively little energy in the FWBRs as compared to what you export into the load.

So that means you can run the motor at a higher RPM, but there is a trade-off there because your bearing and air friction goes up.

Alternatively you can run at a lower RPM but have more turns in your pick-up coils.  That leads to another trade-off where you increase the losses in the coils themselves due to the higher resistance.

All this implies looking for a sweet spot for maximizing your power output.  If I was Brains from The Thunderbirds I could create a bunch of plots and zero in on that sweet spot.

But there is nothing special or mysterious about diodes.  Either the holes and the electrons don't dance and stay on opposite sides of the room, or the holes and electrons have a mosh-pit-style dance going and when they slam into each other they eliminate each other, kind of like anti-matter meeting matter except no explosion.  They simply open up the dance floor for more party-goers and the mad annihilation dance continues.

That's the ticket.

MileHigh
MH
I think you missed one important spec. that the people messing with this stuff should know about and pay attention to, and that is Trr, reverse recovery time. The time it takes a diode to recover from passing or blocking current. Many of the FWBR's are made for 50-60 Hz operation and do not function well even at a few hundred Hz.  Some diodes are built especially for high frequencies, I think this spec is the problem people are having with selecting diodes,  and also why some diodes work better then others.


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #837 on: 2011-08-06, 01:02:31 »
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Room3327:

I haven't looked at a spec sheet for a diode in a long time.  To the best of my recollection diodes switch off in a few microseconds or less.  It might even be nanoseconds.  So it's not an issue for the Muller motor or any similar motor that experimenters tend to build on the forums.

MileHigh
   
img  wattsup
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #838 on: 2011-08-06, 15:51:24 »
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If an LED is considered a diode, is it possible to make a FWBR with LEDs. Just to see how they light up relative to the rotor magnet passage between the coils. Sort of like a visual FWBR.

wattsup


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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #839 on: 2011-08-06, 17:23:05 »

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Quote from: MileHigh on 2011-08-06, 01:02:31
Room3327:

I haven't looked at a spec sheet for a diode in a long time.  To the best of my recollection diodes switch off in a few microseconds or less.  It might even be nanoseconds.  So it's not an issue for the Muller motor or any similar motor that experimenters tend to build on the forums.

MileHigh

MH,
I don't have time right now to post a spec sheet scan, but just looking at some of the Trr times in the book they go from 8000 usec. (or 8 ms) down to a couple of usec ( 2 usec.) I could only find a couple diodes that went down to nanoseconds and they were like 750 nsec. Common diodes like the 1N4000 series run about 30 usec. or .03 milliseconds.  Diodes are not as fast as you think they are.


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
img  Room3327
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #840 on: 2011-08-06, 20:32:51 »

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Quote from: DeepCut on 2011-08-06, 20:17:06
Trr for schottkys is in the pico-seconds range, no ned to scan in data-sheets !

Deepcut,
Absolutely, if you know that your using schottkys and what they are, but there are some people that are cutting diodes off old circuit boards and what not, that don't know what the difference between diodes is and why they are getting such different results with their various diodes.


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #841 on: 2011-08-07, 17:11:47 »
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Room3327:

I plucked this off another forum:

Quote
part      Vf     Vrrm    Iav    Ifsm   Cj      trr
1N4007    1.0V   1000V   1A     40A    15pF    no spec

1N4148    1.0V   100V    0,3A   2A     5pF     4ns

STTH1R06  1.7V   600V    1A     25A    -       25ns

HER108G   1.7V   1000V   1A     30A    10pF    75ns

15ETX06   2.3V   600V    15A    170A   20pF    18ns

RHRG50120 3.2V   1200V   50A    500A   150pF   100ns

Credit goes to Tecstatic for gathering the data.

For the 1n4007 most data sheets don't quote the reverse recovery time but I found it here and it's 30 microseconds like you also quoted.

http://www.oup.com/us/pdf/microcircuits/students/diode/1n4004-general.pdf

This diode has a very high reverse breakdown voltage of 1000 volts and perhaps a design trade-off is an increased reverse recovery time.  This diode is overkill for an FWBR for sure and there are better diodes that you can use.  However, you still have to keep relative time scales in mind.  Lets say for a motor use use 10 milliseconds as a representative time scale.  The diode switches off in 0.03 milliseconds.  So the diode switches off in 1/333th of 10 milliseconds.  My guess is that you might see a very marginal difference in performance if you use a 1N4007 in an FWBR as compared to a much faster diode that otherwise has similar specs.

You have to remember that when the coil reverses polarity it's due to the rotor magnets flying past the pick-up coils.  This is a relatively slow and easy voltage roller-coaster ride for the diode. When it's first reverse biased it's at a very low voltage and it's all slow relative to the time scale of the diode.  The diode is already fully switched off before it sees higher reverse EMF from the pick-up coil.  Everything is as slow as molasses in January here.

MileHigh
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #842 on: 2011-08-07, 18:09:34 »

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MH,
I understand what you are saying , I don't disagree with you, well rarely anyway.  In this case I just thought we should discuss Trr, which had not been talked about concerning the problems some people are having understanding the differences in diodes and why they produce such different results.
And yes things are slow as molasses.
 :D 


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
img  giantkiller
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #843 on: 2011-08-08, 15:42:28 »

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Quote from: MileHigh on 2011-08-07, 17:11:47
The diode is already fully switched off before it sees higher reverse EMF from the pick-up coil.  Everything is as slow as molasses in January here.

MileHigh

Interesting..
I see this as placing a fast cutoff to the wave form. Potential without current flow? Grumpy has spoken about this many times before.


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img  wattsup
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #844 on: 2011-08-08, 18:15:40 »
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Here is a question about diodes.

Let's say I take a frequency generator driven H-Bridge that enables me to pulse any frequency AC into a small AC transformer primary. I then connect the secondary via two diodes that are both pointing to a good uF Capacitor. So both diodes are pointing to the cap meaning that the positive can pass through the diode from either secondary coil wire but not the negative.

Technically, the cap should not see any rise because the coil cannot see the negative side of the cap.

But the diode has a forward bias and a reverse breakdown. So can the condition of forward and reverse happen at the same time in a diode? So what if at the right frequency there is a "slight" reverse breakdown where the AC from the secondary can see a negative or neutral condition on the cap and send bursts of energy output to the cap. I am wondering if this is possible and if so, would it make like a cannon burst at the right frequency and load the cap real fast. Would this be a good way to study an out-of-the-box output effect of a diode?

wattsup

PS: Yes, I know we already tried talking about this some good while ago but then, @MH was more in attack mode and it was hard to converse. These days, with a cooler and calmer @MH, let's try it again. lol


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img  Chet K
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #845 on: 2011-08-17, 23:43:26 »
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #846 on: 2011-08-17, 23:55:45 »
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thanks Chet,   I've been reading what toranorod's been posting last weekend, and I like his methodical approach.  He's doing good research, but could document a little better.

He's input power is on the order of 15 watts, and his output on the order of 3 watts so far with two gen coils.   He has a ways to go.

EM
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #847 on: 2011-08-18, 02:16:19 »
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Wattsup:

I didn't really catch your posting because I am not really reading the Romero stuff anymore.  I only glance at it once in a while.

You really come up with colourful ideas like "cannon bursts."  I read your stuff and it's like you turn electronics into abstract Cubism that would make Picasso proud.

So, I am not going to answer your question because I am trying to be nasty or anything, I am going to turn your last posting into a challenge for you.

The challenge is two-fold:

1.  Draw up a circuit diagram
2.  Make a timing diagram

Do those two things and find the answer for yourself.  This would be a fantastic exercise for you.

It's very hard to talk about electronics with prose sometimes.  As a general comment not just directed at you, you might not realize how difficult it is to juggle a bunch of sentences in your head and then try to "invent" the circuit on the fly and then work out the timing and then respond, all in your head.  Even simple examples can make your brain hurt.

I don't even think your prose translates into a circuit.  Nor do your comments make much sense about how it works, and then you have the "out of the box" hope tagged on at the end.

So please, draw up a circuit diagram based on what you are saying and then develop a timing diagram that shows how it is supposed to operate.  If you post it that would be great.  You need to do this as a kind of self-discovery exercise.

MileHigh
   
img  BEP
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #848 on: 2011-08-18, 03:04:53 »
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Wattsup,

Yes, at a certain point in increasing frequency the other side of that capacitor will see a connection making the loop complete. This is due to capacitance between the FG and the unconnected terminal of the capacitor. (provided your transformer will function at these higher frequencies).

As far as your question about diodes firing cannons..... please take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_recovery_diode

What you describe sounds very much like an SRD or snap-off diode. It is more like cracking a whip than firing a cannon  :D

They are well known and certainly not a source of OU.
   
img  Chet K
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #849 on: 2011-08-18, 13:41:42 »
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EM
Well ,Its really this very recent Quote  by Shadesz .

Shadesz
Qoute:
From Here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7982-muller-generator-replication-romerouk-42.html

So now think of it, as the magnet approaches it begins to charge the copper which starts to kick back. Rod has seen effective results by draining the copper as fast as possible using a dc/dc converter. Perhaps this is because with less charge, means less lenz effect, so it doesn't push back as much (as if the copper was still stagnant).

Now about the type of core. Remember, magnetic fields want to take the easy rout. Copper has a magnetic permeability almost like air. I'm guessing that copper under induced current has an even lower permeability. So, the magnetic field is now having a hard time following its normal path past the magnet.

Now at about this instant it finds the iron core. Iron has a relative permeability of 4,000 μ/μ0 (see Electrical Steel). This is roughly 4,000 times more attractive to the field than air and stagnant copper. The field jumps forward to take a path through the core, this accelerates the rotor. Not only that, but while the field chooses the core over the coil, lenz isn't there!

Then at some point the magnetic field saturates the core. In which case the field returns to the copper and air, and lenz shows his ugly face. BUT this time, if your magnet is just over TDC, lenz is helping you by pushing the magnet as it leaves the coil!

---------------------------------------------------------
See ,
I am a fish out of water around here,I worked with structural engineers all my life

  But in a very interesting venue ,Changing the way things were done ....
In some of the biggest Most Highrisk areas you could imagine,successfully.
  Oh ,Change ain't easy sometimes........

I see what Shadesz has posted above ,and I see change.
 
They're experimenting ....Finding things out ... And making new changes based on those findings.

 I See a structure ,Modified toward a specific end ,To utilyse the attributes of all the components ...In a different way ,to make a very specific outcome.

OU
A thing of beauty!


Chet
« Last Edit: 2011-08-18, 14:21:14 by ramset »
   
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