Romerouk's Muller Replication

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Author Topic: Romerouk's Muller Replication (Read 510701 times)

Peterae	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #850 on: 2011-08-18, 14:10:40 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Imagine having a situation where the rotor was to speed up when the coils are loaded, you would need to add another drive coil that slows the rotor from destruction, i mean you could not slow it down by shorting another coil. Looks like it's time to hunt for this speed up situation

Chet K	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #851 on: 2011-08-18, 14:42:44 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	IMAGINE From Elias Over here http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7982-muller-generator-replication-romerouk-42.html The “transmission time” viewpoint allows us view the second assumption of Newton’s Third Law as an assumption of absolute time (or absolute simultaneity), if the action is at a distance. This assumption continues despite the reality that the “reaction” of a body to an externally applied force can not be simultaneous with the initial application (the “action”) of the external force. This profound restriction on Newton’s Law brings time into the equation -- a restriction which becomes the critical factor. It should be noted that this concept of a non-simultaneous “reaction time” to an applied force (whatever the nature of that force is considered to be) is applicable not only in mechanics, but also in electromagnetism and other fields of physics. A sudden surge (an “action”) of current along a conductor, for example, will also result in an equal and opposite reaction -- but again not simultaneously. Likewise a rotating shaft surrounded by permanent magnets arranged so as to impel the rotation will encounter an equal and opposite magnetic force which will brake the rotation -- after a time delay, or what might be called the “Critical Action Time” (CAT)! Chet

PhysicsProf	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #852 on: 2011-08-18, 16:46:49 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3017	Hey, Chet -- excellent point IMO. I've raised the issue of time delay and Newton's Third Law here at OUR before, remember the 2 wire loops with one pushing on the other and no "kick back"? Also, I posted the question here, and have not found a valid response yet: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/13223/2-electromagnetic-loops-with-light-speed-constraints-is-newtons-third-law-viol With this additional question; again no response from the physicists there: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/13236/3-current-loops-with-non-conservation-of-momentum-when-one-specifically-consider This same "CAT" should apply to motors and ALSO TO TRANSFORMERS -- if the TIMING is just right. I'm quite interested in the latter, the possibility of "OU Transformers" -- easier IMO to build and maintain since there are no moving parts. But first -- the proof of principle is needed; note in this regard the comment today at OU: Quote Re: PLEASE READ THIS-MAJOR BREAK THRU FROM BILL MEHESS « Reply #162 on: Today at 08:44:49 AM » * Reply with quoteQuote I have one comment regarding 'there is no such thing as OU' some people seem to think. Just take look at Thane's BiTT. It has been verified by third party and it gives more out than goes in. Theory of operation is simple to understand and it is very easy to build. Even I managed to build one using scrap material and I got about 1.85 COP, 26 watts out for free. It feels nice to think that I was able to build a better transformer than any commercial trafo out there as they all have COP < 1. But immediately this raises my concern, since OU is so simple, why I cannot buy OU trafos from my local store ? Surely OU trafo would be a successfull product and with a bit of tuning using better core materials a guaranteed success. I have asked "Jack NoSkills" for further details. Until this is replicated with CAREFUL MEASUREMENTS, one should not accept this at face value IMO -- but I am interested in this approach and any details which would lead to a replication.

EMdevices	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #853 on: 2011-08-18, 16:55:31 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Chet, There is more than one reason why a permanent magnet motor could speed up under load at high RPM. Let me give you a few: 1) Hysterisis losses are minimized more than I^R losses increase. When the magnetic domains flip energy is lost. The guys figured out that if they bias the cores with another magnet things improve. However, when you load the coils you prevent the flux from increasing and decreasing so much, and you basicaly dampen out the AC portion of the flux that incurs the hysterisis losses. Also, the I^2R losses are mimimal at high RPM since the time constant for the coil is relatively large compared to the period of the magnetic waveform seen by the coil 2) If the magnetic field of the magnets is opposed, they decrease in strength. A weaker magnetic field in the magnets means the motor will turn at a faster velocity for the same imput voltage (because the induced emf is smaller now). In one of my electric machines classes years ago, the professor cut the field coil current to an industrial sized motor to show us what can happen, and the motor sped up in an instant to such huge RPM that he quickly cut the power to the ROTOR to stop it. His point was, be very carefull HOW YOU TURN OFF A MOTOR. Explosions have occured and people have died from the centrifugal forces that rupture the rotor. 3) There could be other phenomena at play I'm sure. But he needs to monitor that input current to see what happens to it when loading occurs. If the current doesn't change, than something else is happening, that should be explored diligently. EM « Last Edit: 2011-08-18, 18:26:44 by EMdevices »

Chet K	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #854 on: 2011-08-18, 18:11:50 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	EM To be quite honest I havent read Toranirod's entire thread, Sigh............... now I will! Until I understand his test criteria and how he establishes "positive results",I cannot offer up "suggestions"! Thank you for taking the time to share your Knowledge on these matters! Priceless!! @Steve Yes ,getting the info from Jack would also be a huge benefit!! Thank you Chet

Chet K	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #855 on: 2011-08-19, 13:32:30 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	EM MH @? Toranarod is excited to see this Movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL90Nmea0Mk Is It One of these 3 ? EM Quote: There is more than one reason why a permanent magnet motor could speed up under load at high RPM. Let me give you a few: 1) Hysterisis losses are minimized more than I^R losses increase. When the magnetic domains flip energy is lost. The guys figured out that if they bias the cores with another magnet things improve. However, when you load the coils you prevent the flux from increasing and decreasing so much, and you basicaly dampen out the AC portion of the flux that incurs the hysterisis losses. Also, the I^2R losses are mimimal at high RPM since the time constant for the coil is relatively large compared to the period of the magnetic waveform seen by the coil 2) If the magnetic field of the magnets is opposed, they decrease in strength. A weaker magnetic field in the magnets means the motor will turn at a faster velocity for the same imput voltage (because the induced emf is smaller now). In one of my electric machines classes years ago, the professor cut the field coil current to an industrial sized motor to show us what can happen, and the motor sped up in an instant to such huge RPM that he quickly cut the power to the ROTOR to stop it. His point was, be very carefull HOW YOU TURN OFF A MOTOR. Explosions have occured and people have died from the centrifugal forces that rupture the rotor. 3) There could be other phenomena at play I'm sure. But he needs to monitor that input current to see what happens to it when loading occurs. If the current doesn't change, than something else is happening, that should be explored diligently. --------------- Do you understand whats happening? Thanks Fellahs Chet

EMdevices	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #856 on: 2011-08-19, 18:51:11 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	I enjoyed that video Chet, thanks. I think this is definitely hysteresis and eddy current losses getting minimized when the coil is shorted. He uses an iron bolt, and that not only will suffer hysteresis losses from domain flipping, but also eddy current losses due to it's conduction properties. Toranorad at least used laminated steel, so he cut down on his eddy current losses but still has hysteresis losses, so that's why his speed up was not as pronounced as the guy in the video. However, I just read a comment on his video, and somebody was saying that toranorad has a higher RPM with the coil shorted, than WITH NO COIL AND IRON CORE PRESENT IN THE SETUP. I like that, that's good thinking right there. Just remove the coil and core entirely from the system and see what the RPM is. Than place it there and the hysteresis losses and eddy current losses should slow it down, than when the coil is shorted, minimizing these losses by opposing changes in flux, the rotor should speed back up, but will it speed up faster than with no coil and core present? If it does than this could be good news, and than we need to eliminate the other objections I had. The magnets field could be weakened and than the motor will draw more current and speed up, since the emf that opposes the input voltage drops with weaker B fields at a set RPM. If this is ruled out as well, and the input current stays constant, meaning input power stays constant, than we might have something interesting here, very interesting. EM

Chet K	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #857 on: 2011-08-19, 19:49:14 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	Thank you for the reply EM Toronarads comment was "!I can see just What he needs to do. This is very cool. seeing the Vid makes me even more confident. We are going to get this" ---------------- And Elias posted this Yes, this it true. I was seeing all of these results about 6 months ago, but what I think that he should also demonstrate, is the coil-less rpm of the rotor, like Rodney, did, which will "prove" that there is energy inserted to the system, by a shorted coil. Very good to see people are waking up to this simple idea!! Very happy. ----------------------------------- Sounds like these boyz are in agreement with you? [I think?] http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7982-muller-generator-replication-romerouk-42.html#post152577 Thanks again EM

EMdevices	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #858 on: 2011-08-20, 08:53:21 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Don't fret too much DeepCut, lot's of links go unnoticed these days! Chet, thanks for the links. I hope they discover something special, they must work at it diligently and methodically.

MileHigh	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #859 on: 2011-08-20, 15:10:48 »
Group: Guest	Chet: Quote Toranarod is excited to see this Movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL90Nmea0Mk Quite a while ago I posted that I suspected that the shorting coil was reducing the friction on the bearings so the rotor would speed up. Without the coil shorted, as the rotor turns the magnets are attracted to the core inside the coil. This creates stress on the main rotor bearing and thus increases the friction which slows the rotor down. With the coil shorted, the induced currents tend to make the core "disappear" and nullify the attraction between the rotor magnets and the coil core. Hence less stress on the bearings and the rotor "magically" speeds up. So there is nothing there and the boys have been spinning their wheels for months on this thing and getting nowhere fast. I am surprised that people are still hacking away at this project. MileHigh

exnihiloest	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #860 on: 2011-08-20, 16:12:23 »
Group: Guest	@Milehigh I'm not 100% satisfied with the explanation because the rotation speed changes a lot (around 15%), so we should hear a supplementary noise at low speed due to the stress on the bearing. But at low and high speed the rotation noise is very stable, just the frequency changes. And the bearing seem to come from a HD or a CD drive so it is high precision mechanics with no play at all in the ball bearing. It is easy to verify your hypothesis: removing the coil and its core should accelerate the rotation up to a speed equal or higher than the high speed of the previous test with the shorted coil (I ask the question on youtube). This would totally convince me about your hypothesis. Has it been done?. « Last Edit: 2011-08-20, 16:46:38 by exnihiloest »

Magluvin	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #861 on: 2011-08-20, 20:52:12 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: MileHigh on 2011-08-20, 15:10:48 Chet: Quite a while ago I posted that I suspected that the shorting coil was reducing the friction on the bearings so the rotor would speed up. Without the coil shorted, as the rotor turns the magnets are attracted to the core inside the coil. This creates stress on the main rotor bearing and thus increases the friction which slows the rotor down. With the coil shorted, the induced currents tend to make the core "disappear" and nullify the attraction between the rotor magnets and the coil core. Hence less stress on the bearings and the rotor "magically" speeds up. So there is nothing there and the boys have been spinning their wheels for months on this thing and getting nowhere fast. I am surprised that people are still hacking away at this project. MileHigh Im with Ex here also. Its funny that you blame all of the speed up on lower tension on the bearings. As you say, "tend to make the core disappear" , but you cant see that eliminating the attractive bumpy drag of the core, has anything to do with allowing the rotor to spin faster than when the coil is open? Hmm, thought you were better than that. Cmon Mh think If by shorting the coil the core, lets say mostly seems to disappear, you have to admit that current must be flowing in that coil for this to happen. Usable current. And this is just a guy with a long bolt, coil, rotor, driver, on the carpet. There is room for improvement. Can we get near 100% invisible core with this method? I think its already close. And I think the closer to 100% invisibility, the more usable current in the coil. Now add more coils.. Marius had the filament of the light bulb glowing, not bright, but glowing. Thats not led currents.... So I have to disagree with your assumption that the only thing happening hear is eliminating tension on the bearings, and thats all you get from the setup. If the coil were open, can you see that cogging would be an issue with slowdown? ;] Mags

exnihiloest	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #862 on: 2011-08-21, 09:35:54 »
Group: Guest	Quote ... It is easy to verify your hypothesis: removing the coil and its core should accelerate the rotation up to a speed equal or higher than the high speed of the previous test with the shorted coil (I ask the question on youtube). This would totally convince me about your hypothesis. Has it been done?. ... To sleep on it gave me a much better explanation. The varying magnetic field when the magnets pass near the coil induce eddy currents in the core. Of course these currents generate an opposing magnetic flux (Lenz's law) which slows the motor. In any case, this is checkable by the same method as above: without the core, the rotation speed should increase.

BEP	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #863 on: 2011-08-21, 14:11:55 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: exnihiloest on 2011-08-21, 09:35:54 To sleep on it gave me a much better explanation. The varying magnetic field when the magnets pass near the coil induce eddy currents in the core. Of course these currents generate an opposing magnetic flux (Lenz's law) which slows the motor. In any case, this is checkable by the same method as above: without the core, the rotation speed should increase. And with the core the speed will increase when the coil is shorted(or very low resistance) because of Lenz in the coil. The current induced in the shorted coil effectively hides much of that long bolt core from the passing magnet.

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #864 on: 2011-08-21, 15:50:57 »
Group: Guest	The explanation would works except for reverse effect with low current. If it is due to hiding the core or neutralize the eddy current, then high or low current would be just more or less speed up.

Chet K	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #865 on: 2011-08-21, 15:55:09 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	Originally Posted by toranarod No load No coil and no side magnets 4106 RPM No load with coil and no side magnets 4099 RPM Full load 190 m AMPS at 6 volts 4145 RPM very quick acceleration. Now here the bit that has got me in a spin. short the coil 4088 RPM I got no idea why. From Here, http://energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7982-muller-generator-replication-romerouk-43.html ---------------------- Chet

BEP	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #866 on: 2011-08-21, 16:26:38 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2011-08-21, 15:50:57 The explanation would works except for reverse effect with low current. If it is due to hiding the core or neutralize the eddy current, then high or low current would be just more or less speed up. At lower currents the mag field of the coil is much weaker and not capable of minimizing the rotor's visibility of the remaining length of the bolt. The same would happen if he attempted to short the coil but had an unintended high resistance contact.

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #867 on: 2011-08-21, 17:05:37 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011-08-21, 16:26:38 At lower currents the mag field of the coil is much weaker and not capable of minimizing the rotor's visibility of the remaining length of the bolt. The same would happen if he attempted to short the coil but had an unintended high resistance contact. I mean at high current the magnetic field hide the bolt so rotor speed up. At lower current the mag. field can't hide most the bolt but it would hide some of the bolt which would also result in an increase in speed. However, the vid show that 20 Ohms actually lower the speed in reference to unload.

MileHigh	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #868 on: 2011-08-21, 17:07:05 »
Group: Guest	It would be interesting to put in a resin-based high-permeability core because then you remove almost all of the eddy current effects. I figure with the coil shorted you remove most of the eddy currents that you set up in the core also. The polarization of the core would be greatly reduced, so it's not storing/releasing significant energy. It would be interesting to measure the bearing temp and the core temp before and after a test run. It's reasonable to assume the bearings are "fragile" in the sense that they are not designed to handle much radial stress. That gets cost-reduced out of them as much as possible by the bearing manufacturers. With a digital scope you could measure the deceleration when you cut the power with the coil and core in place. I am assuming a half decent DSO, even computer based, could get an external trigger and store then self-trigger exactly one-half second later and store. There is your precision deceleration measurement data along a "constant slope" in the angular velocity vs. time curve that allows you to make a quite precise calculation. If you remove the coil and core then you get a "pure deceleration" without any external influences. It would be interesting to compare the two. That deceleration data would say a lot all by itself. If you can do a reasonable calculation of the moment of inertia of the spinning CD plus rotor magnets, that data plus the spin-down deceleration data gives you the friction power at the steady-state speed. It should be pretty easy to do. Then you can make careful measurements of the electrical input power, and do more tests like outlined above but with a generator setup. You can factor in the coil wire resistance also. In theory you could develop a power pie chart for different setups. I'll do all that tomorrow. lol Will there be a mystery "extra energy" slice in the pie chart, or will there be an "unknown or other losses" slice? MileHigh

wattsup	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #869 on: 2011-08-21, 18:03:37 »
Hero Member Posts: 520	Too bad in that shorting video he did not scope the coil. That coil is very far from the rotor so induction would be minimal hence his bulb was so dim. As the magnet passes that coil bolt, there will be a polarity shift and the last shift just may be in repulsion to that rotor magnet hence pushing it out. The bolt being so thin is giving a more precise return knock on the rotor magnet. Something like a 1 foot squared trampoline versus a 10 foot squared trampoline. The 1ftsq will react more quickly as a recoil. This is great because this is step one towards experimenting with cascading coils. They will get there slowly but surely. wattsup or Picasso for some - lol --------------------------- http://etherimpress.com

MileHigh	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #870 on: 2011-08-21, 22:15:01 »
Group: Guest	Interesting comment: Quote and if you times that speed up by the 14 genrator coils total each producing a speed-up, and the small voltas and amps produced by one coil, then this X 14, and fact that when rotor does speed up you get more volts and amps produced from the higher rpms, and fact that when it keeps seeding up with nothing to stop it like lenz law and just friction of bearings and wind resistance, it will go into runaway-mode, also what romeorUK reported which was solved by the DC to DC convertor...so jsut thought I would point all that out in case somebody thinks romeroUK made it all up for some reason. It would be nice if this was true. The problem is that as you add coils they don't add up, they divide. Adding more coils to the mix means that the group of coils start to share the available mechanical power from the rotor to do a generator function, for example. You have two pick-up coils and the output power per coil is approximately one-half the power output per single coil. So you are up against a wall. In this case specifically if you had two shorting coils, they would look quite close to a "no coil" configuration again. Just like a single shorted coil looks like a "no coil" configuration. So the wall here is the max speed with no coils present and two shorted coils would be "sharing" the increased RPM benefit from a single shorted coil configuration. MileHigh « Last Edit: 2011-08-22, 04:06:10 by MileHigh »

MileHigh	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #871 on: 2011-08-21, 22:24:57 »
Group: Guest	Wattsup: Quote Too bad in that shorting video he did not scope the coil. That's an interesting idea and would be fun because you could then easily measure the RMS current going through the coil and calculate the power dissipation in the coil. And of course your scope trace would show you how much induction action was going on. I am assuming the voltage will be well above the noise threshold. You would have to make a "coil tap point" about half-way down the length of the coil to find your voltage differential. If I was an experimenter I would look for a sale on cheap digital multimeters and buy a half-dozen of them. You could dedicate some of them to standard functions, like a current sensing resistor or like the example above. Then go insane. MileHigh

cheappower2012	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #872 on: 2011-08-22, 10:16:09 »
Group: Guest	I built a replica of the thanes motor/generator a few years back and experimented with this effect,its not overunity.One thing in the video that the person didn't try was putting a diode across the coil and reversing the direction of the diode.The speeding up effect only works in one direction,I discovered this when I put a large led across the coil.

Chet K	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #873 on: 2011-08-22, 17:04:58 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	Another Very nice movie!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8AC8T5cvm4 From Freepower at OU @Cheappower Looking at Toranarad's endeavour ,Do you have any Input or comment to share?? http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/7982-muller-generator-replication-romerouk-42.html#post152577 Thank you Chet

Peterae	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #874 on: 2011-08-22, 17:07:27 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	MH I am using 2 very high quality bearings the only loading on them are the axial forces as the rotor spins which they are designed to withstand, there are coils above and below the rotor and these balance any forces on the rotor in the vertical force plane.

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