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OverUnity Research > Motors > Muller Generator > Romerouk's Muller Replication
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Author Topic: Romerouk's Muller Replication  (Read 510644 times)
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img  EMdevices
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #575 on: 2011-06-28, 22:49:23 »
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I will never be able to get that wave shape with my current setup,  because:

1)   Magnet diameter:   10mm
2)   Ferrite diameter:     7mm
3)   Rotor is warped,  and the closest I want to get to it is about 3 mm,  and that's not close enough with these geometries.  


But with a new rotor with BIGGER magnets,  let's say 25mm,  than at 3mm gap I will begin to see those flat spots with my current ferrites.


It's all about proportions!    Peter is actualy setup properly to test this because he is replicating RomeroUK's motor exactly, while I'm experimenting and playing with the dimentions.  (but my next bigger build will be using the same proportions)

However,   we are back at asking more questions now:

Are those flat spots significant in light of this new understanding?, or more significant than the rotor modulation?   Is any of it indicative of OU?   Personally, I'm not sure at this point.  I must finish my dynamo to gain more understanding and experiment with timing and biasing magnets.


EM
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #576 on: 2011-06-28, 22:56:11 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Where did you get that flux curve from?

I'm not convinced that it is so linear in the middle as you've shown it.

.99


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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #577 on: 2011-06-29, 00:08:45 »
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Where did you get that flux curve from?

The magnetic field curves are generated by my program according to the governing equation for a current loop.  I posted a link to that in my previous posts.
The voltage curves are derived from those magnetic curves by differentiation.  The top of the magnetic field peaks seems quite linear at h=0.45, but I'm sure it's not perfectly linear.

Here's two voltage waveforms offset from each other to approximate RomeroUK's voltage waveform. (I used the ones at h=0.45)

EM


PS.  P99,  I added a zoomed in graphic of the h=0.45 flux curve peak.  We can see that it's not perfectly linear and I wouldn't expect it to be.
« Last Edit: 2011-06-29, 01:02:32 by EMdevices »
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #578 on: 2011-06-29, 00:34:28 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
EM,

These magnets won't have the same flux profile that a current loop has. Did you see my diagram of a core passing over one of these magnets? The magnets will have a much more pronounced dip in the middle compared to your current loop. With that in mind, taking the differential of that should convert that flat spot back to a nice straight line.

.99


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #579 on: 2011-06-29, 00:51:15 »
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P99,
Quote
These magnets won't have the same flux profile that a current loop has.

Yes, I agree.  there is a difference between a current loop and a magnet of some thickness.  In fact a current loop models a very thin magnet of the same area.   To model a thick magnet of some height, I would need to integrate in the z-axis, which is a summation of those curves you see.    

So the take away from all of this is that the gap length and the relative diameters of the magnet and ferrite all contribute in creating those flat spots.

EM
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #580 on: 2011-06-29, 00:59:26 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: EMdevices on 2011-06-29, 00:51:15
P99,
Yes, I agree.  there is a difference between a current loop and a magnet of some thickness.  In fact a current loop models a very thin magnet.   To model a thick magnet of some height, I would need to integrate in the z-axis, which is a summation of those curves you see.    

So the take away from all of this is that the gap length and the relative diameters of the magnet and ferrite all contribute in creating those flat spots.

EM

Well, we'll see when Peter shows us a scope shot with the close rotor/stator spacing. I predict the result will be a pronounced flat spot in-between rotor magnets, and I'm betting the TDC transition will still be a straight sloping line with no flat spot.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #581 on: 2011-06-29, 08:31:08 »

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Quote from: poynt99 on 2011-06-29, 00:59:26
Well, we'll see when Peter shows us a scope shot with the close rotor/stator spacing. I predict the result will be a pronounced flat spot in-between rotor magnets, and I'm betting the TDC transition will still be a straight sloping line with no flat spot.

.99
Indeed this is what i am seeing, forgot my camera again Grrr

I am not able to close the gap more than 3mm top and bottom due to rotor warp though.
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #582 on: 2011-06-29, 17:27:44 »
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Peterae
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Indeed this is what i am seeing...

Well, I guess than we need another explanation for those flat spots, because varying the geometry apparently is not the answer, at least for your dynamo.
Maybe those flat spots are developed in the areas between the magnets and at TDC we get the slightly curved distortion which fools us into thinking it's not TDC?


EM
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #583 on: 2011-06-29, 17:35:55 »
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Quote from: EMdevices on 2011-06-29, 17:27:44
Peterae
Well, I guess than we need another explanation for those flat spots, because varying the geometry apparently is not the answer, at least for your dynamo.
Maybe those flat spots are developed in the areas between the magnets and at TDC we get the slightly curved distortion which fools us into thinking it's not TDC?


EM

Lol   Now who is the one that has been disinforming?   hmmm?   Check my posts.  I had it way back.

This is just funny


Mags
   
img  EMdevices
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #584 on: 2011-06-29, 18:19:42 »
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Magluvin,

I'm sorry you think my efforts at understanding this waveform is regarded as "DISINFORMATION".

EM
« Last Edit: 2011-06-29, 18:50:48 by EMdevices »
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #585 on: 2011-06-29, 19:15:44 »

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Mag that comment is out of order no sniping PLEASE, we are trying to understand whats going on, so may the best theory win, where is your explanation can you give me a link to look at.

Peter
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #586 on: 2011-06-29, 19:53:09 »

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Here's a video of the rotor adjusted about 3-4mm gap top and bottom, i could probably go a little more but would need to be carefull as the rotor is not perfect.

Personally i think we are concentrating on the wrong artifact on the waveform, i think we need to know why he has a little squiggle on the other side of his waveform.
You can see in the video that TDC is dead in the linear side of my waveform and the flat in exactly in between magnets.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YumdU9muXMY[/youtube]
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #587 on: 2011-06-29, 19:59:01 »

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So what i want to know is whats causing the sharp transition on this waveform, see Poynts label 'Sharp Transition'
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #588 on: 2011-06-29, 22:41:55 »
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To everybody this idea may help you or not however your left with
the Romerouk device, maybe very close tolerence of arrangements of components
or very complex adjusments or its just a fraud.I notice a lot of people are
 adding other components to the
coils and thinking thats it,there not on the original.Romerouk seems to have experimented with coil shorting
a lot before building the device,he stated that it didn't work until it reached a certain speed.
Its not known what speed the wave form was taken at,and weither a load was on the output.
Of great importance is who visited Romerouk, that would explain Romerouk's behavior which is
leaning toward deception.Its very hard to believe that no one has made a self runner
given the really smart people here if the information is correct.
   
img  Magluvin
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #589 on: 2011-06-29, 23:03:19 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2011-06-29, 19:15:44
Mag that comment is out of order no sniping PLEASE, we are trying to understand whats going on, so may the best theory win, where is your explanation can you give me a link to look at.

Peter

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=827.msg15236#msg15236

And I have repeated it several times at OU.   

By the way Peter, I like the scope shot in you last post. . I see you tightened it up a bit on the trigger for finding tdc.

The big reason I posted what I said about EM is when I posted in the link above about the tdc and the flat spot is in between the mags, read ems post after that.  Bang bang.  ;]   fair is fair.   It is EM who is speculating, not I.  I knew what was up with magnet position vs scope shot from experience.   But nobody listened.  Point had the same answer also. Experience.  ;]

I may here n there make some miscalculations on things, but I put many hours into this stuff, and get little sleep at times because I just keep on goin. Cant stop baby pop.    So, im human. 

I had to put down my dinner to write this after I read your responses.   Ok back to KFC potato bowl w/sides.  ;]


I will give as much respect as I receive.  ;]

Mags
   
img  Magluvin
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #590 on: 2011-06-29, 23:25:10 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2011-06-29, 19:59:01
So what i want to know is whats causing the sharp transition on this waveform, see Poynts label 'Sharp Transition'




This I explained also..  When the rotor mag approaches the coil, only 1 half of the coil sees moving flux causing current in one direction in the coil as a whole.. The field is cutting the wires on 1/2 of the coil.. At tdc the flux is equal on both sides of the coil, same magnetic polarity, same direction. The currents cancel out at that time..  After tdc, the field cuts the other side of the coil reversing the currents.  the core is like a barrier to keep the flux from passing all the way through the core as it approaches and leaves, thus a + swing, then null, then a - swing. And the flat spot is no generation at all, err very very little, because the magnet is not near the coil.  Or we could say that 1 magnet is approaching and 1 is leaving, thus cancellation or null generation.   make sense?   ;]

mags
   
img  Magluvin
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #591 on: 2011-06-30, 00:43:40 »
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Hey Peter

here is the way back explanation.  http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=827.msg13895#msg13895

At the time I was envisioning the bias mag in the mix but the same ideas.

Look into Faraday. .  The field must cut the conductor to induce currents.   Now apply that to the coils you are using.
If the core was not there, the field would be able to go all the way through the coil as a whole giving a lot less output due to both sides of the coil are being induced by the magnet more than without the core acting as a barrier between the incoming and outgoing side of the coil. 
This is general as to the way the magnet approaches the coil from the side and leaves to the side of the coil.

Now, if w have a magnet at tdc and moved the mag up and down, inline with the core/coil, we would have generation also due to the flux is not moving perpendicular to the axis of the coil, it will be oscillating from front to back of the coil not left and right.

Anyways, I apologize to EM.  i just got a lil frustrated with the "disinfo" thing when it was really the other way around but nobody paid attention.  So now we are clear on what is happening on how the magnet generates current in the configuration we have.  ;]

Im doing some tests on my bifi that may show why the magnet spacing is necessary to eliminate lenz, but the mag, at the right speed, rpm, hz, can tickle the bifi ito a resonant state for at least one cycle(due to load killing the resonance).  The one cycle at the right(resonant) freq will generate more out, because it is easy when the freq is right..

The bifi is an inductor with greater internal capacitance than a normal coil. It will have a resonant freq, and harmonics there of.  I believe that Romeros gen coils(bifi and confirmed) may only be hitting a lower harmonic, as I dont see his coils havong a resonant freq of near 160hz.   For example,  1200 rpm x 8 mags = 9600 passes per min   divide by 60sec = 160hz.   And that figure may be higher because the magnetic induction event is not an even flow on the rotor. Remember the flat spot.   ;]  its just an estemate to get the idea.

We will see tonight hopefully, and will post results here and at OU.

Let me know if you think Im wrong with any of this and I will explain further.  ;]

Mags
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #592 on: 2011-06-30, 01:08:12 »
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Here is a post of mine back on the 14th of this month at OU.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=11009.msg290923#msg290923

And here is romeros post just after mine

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=11009.msg290925#msg290925


And, when I find it, it is recent, a pic of romeros coils on the plexi plate before assembly.  it shows some coils with 3 leads.  Bifi?  yup
I believe so.   this is one piece of info he had left out. The only one I can see so far. but he came clean.  ;]

So this is why my theory of the coils being self resonant and we have to take advantage of it.. Pure genius it is.  Spacing to avoid lenz and tickle the coil from the distance.  of course there is a balance and many tweaks.  is it worth it?  yes!

Mags
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #593 on: 2011-06-30, 01:12:58 »
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When I stated this 2 posts ago...

The bifi is an inductor with greater internal capacitance than a normal coil. It will have a resonant freq, and harmonics there of.

What I meant to say also is that the resonant freq of the bifi is much lower( in the range we may need) than a normal coil, due to greater internal capacitance.. LC

mags
   
img  EMdevices
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #594 on: 2011-06-30, 01:51:00 »
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Mags,

Appology accepted,  I would say it's very tempting and an easy conclusion to arrive at, that the "flat spots" in the voltage waveform must be the due to the space between the magnets, because that space is about 2.5 times the magnet diameters, and I was tempted to believe that on a few occasions.    

But romeroUK's output voltage waveform, if I remove the "flat spots",  starts to look very close to my and Peter's waveforms.  So since I can't replicate his waveform I need to understand it from whatever angle I can.  

I'm currious if you have a replica similar to romero's and if you can provide us with some output waveforms.

@Peter,

that sharp transition does look a bit too sharp, maybe youre right, we're focusing on the wrong parts of his waveform.   Of course we are also focused on the "tilt" in the waveform, which reminds me I should ask romero about his CRT oscilloscope if it has any alignments issues.


For those that are still wondering,  let me say it again because I got it straight from Romero.

His voltage waveform was taken while the dynamo was self-running, with a 12 V light bulb as the load, and it was scoped at the terminals of a single top coil.

EM
« Last Edit: 2011-06-30, 20:44:49 by EMdevices »
   
img  Magluvin
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #595 on: 2011-06-30, 02:24:53 »
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All good Em  ;]

So the wave form in the trace in peters post is his or romeros?   It looks good to me.  Im not following.

is the replication the same as romeros?  Bifi coils? Loaded?  bias mags/washer? Loaded meaning the output need always be higher than the storage cap that is loaded.

Some are still on the possibility of shorting. I dont see that in the scope shots.  Though if there were a diode(again not seen in the shot) that shorted 1 half of the waveform, then released on the other half, but I dont believe so.  cannot say.

Anyways, your right, dont be concerned with the shape of the wave form, be concerned with the height.  ;]

Mags
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #596 on: 2011-06-30, 03:39:00 »
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Here is the post with the pic of the coils with more than 2 leads coming from them.   ;]
There seem to be 4 on most. It was quite a few pages back. 3 or 4, well at least there are more than 2. bifi. ;]

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3842.msg292732#msg292732

Mags
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #597 on: 2011-06-30, 04:06:42 »
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Here is a correction to my previous post that links my post and then romeros.   ;]

I must have copied the quote link within my post by accident. So it didnt take you directly to my post.  ;]

here is my post on the 14th

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=11009.msg290923#msg290923

And here is Romeros post just after mine

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=11009.msg290925#msg290925

Maybe some that read the incorrect post figured it out, but I wanted to make sure.  I think its important info to know.


Mags
   
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Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #598 on: 2011-06-30, 07:32:12 »

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OK Mag glad you 2 are cool, i was getting a bit jittery with people having a pop at each other, there's no need we are all here for the same thing.

OK some good posts, I am not sure there are 4 wires on those coil plates though because the coils are bolted on the other side of the perspex and therefore the holes are drilled through the perspex and i can only see 2 holes per coil, and not only that we don't see 4 wires for each coil when it's all wired up.

Well i guess my next move should be to study the current and voltage waveforms under load and see what the resulting rpm load changes are, i still need to build a rev counter to give me a live rev feed for this, so there is going to be a delay for me.
   
img  duff
Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #599 on: 2011-06-30, 07:39:29 »
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Quote from: EMdevices on 2011-06-30, 01:51:00

His voltage waveform was taken while the dynamo was self-running, with a 12 V light bulb as the load, and it was scoped at the terminals of a single top coil.

EM

EM,

Could you  please provide a reference to the above statement.

I'm only aware of the statement made by Romero posted with the scope shot, in which he said nothing about a 12V  light bulb or the self-running build.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3842.msg284923#msg284923

-Thanks
   
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