Romerouk's Muller Replication

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Peterae

Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #525 on: 2011-06-26, 21:03:22 »

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Quote from: poynt99 on 2011-06-26, 16:31:15

EM,

I've looked at the wave form some more, and I agree with your assertion of where TDC is, and where the approach is, especially in regards to your own scope shot.

I've labeled Romero's scope shot with some food for thought and a bit of a theory as to what may be causing the flat spot, or as I believe it may be, simply a "delay" in the negative excursion.

First off, the approach does not look right either. There is a sharp transition there where it should be smooth. It appears to me that the coil is generating as expected with a gradual slope as the magnet approaches, but rather than ramping up swiftly in an upward curve, the trace suddenly jumps upward linearly. Something is clearly "adding" to that part of the trace.

Second, there is no way the negative excursion should occur in such a delayed manner. Yours and Peter's scope traces affirm that. We know that the core flux has to be changing polarization as the magnet passes TDC. So the only way the trace can go flat from TDC onward, is if the coil output is briefly canceled by adding it to a negative counterpart, such as from another coil set, or from a 3rd coil wound on the same coil pair just for this purpose. The eventual negative excursion that does appear would then be due to an inductive kickback response when the coil currents suddenly stop canceling.

.99

The only problem i can see is that your TDC is a fraction left of where i scoped the magnet furthest away from the coil, in other words this is the furthest point the coil is from the rotor magnet.

I will re post my image from yesterday
Where Black circle is TDC and red circle furthest away or where the rotor magnet is in between the previous coil and the coil being scoped, i am not mistaken by this i used a hall sensor pulse to align the coil waveform and find these positions.

poynt99

Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #526 on: 2011-06-26, 21:26:36 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...

Peter, I'm not sure how you are trying to correlate your scope shots with Romero's ?

Here is your scope shot again, and I've marked out the transition points.

Do you agree with them as marked?

.99

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top and bottom coil across bridge_99.jpg

Romerouk's Muller Replication

top and bottom coil across bridge_99.jpg (176.01 kB, 657x512 - viewed 1020 times.)

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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Peterae	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #527 on: 2011-06-26, 21:41:40 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3976	No thats the wrong one see my last video for waveform shape [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BN_QFP2jc8[/youtube]

poynt99	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #528 on: 2011-06-26, 21:55:46 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3216 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Peter, How did you mirror-image the wave form? .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Peterae	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #529 on: 2011-06-26, 21:58:11 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3976	I think it was as simple as connecting the scope the other way round

poynt99	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #530 on: 2011-06-26, 22:33:45 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3216 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	I see. Well, that doesn't change things in terms of where TDC is; it has to be on that straight zero-crossing transition as I've marked on your diagram. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

BEP

Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #531 on: 2011-06-27, 02:02:19 »

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Quote from: poynt99 on 2011-06-26, 22:33:45

I see.

Well, that doesn't change things in terms of where TDC is; it has to be on that straight zero-crossing transition as I've marked on your diagram.

Would it make more sense if the identified 'zero-crossing point' isn't because the actual voltage zero crossing is at the central X line along the Y axis on the graticule where most would place it during a grounded input prior to looking at the waveform?

I think this is where the rubber hits the road. I have stated my theory where it is not possible for the rotor magnet to induce current except by modulating the static fields of the stator magnets nor is it possible for the rotor magnet to reverse the induction on the coils. in other words.... TDC isn't zero.

wings	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #532 on: 2011-06-27, 08:53:46 »
Group: Guest	Wanlass configuration http://www.linux-host.org/energy/awan.html

MasterBlaster

Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #533 on: 2011-06-27, 20:21:57 »

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OK, Direct from my arm chair:

"About Strange Efects Related to Rotating Magnetic Systems"

http://tgd.wippiespace.com/public_html/pdfpool/Faraday.pdf

Also if you feel brave you can look further:

http://tgd.wippiespace.com/public_html/pdfpool/

EMdevices

Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #534 on: 2011-06-27, 20:38:23 »

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Maybe we should read what the US Navy concluded about Wanlass wound motors.

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA140085

or the lawsuit he filed against GE

http://www.ll.georgetown.edu/federal/judicial/fed/opinions/97opinions/97-1425.html

Grumpy

Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #535 on: 2011-06-27, 21:06:52 »

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tExB=qr

The flat part of the waveform si when the magnet on the rotor is aligned with the coil. i.e. there is very little flux change at that time. As the magnet is departing coil-space, another magnet arrives right after the departer of the first - hence the positive and neg pulses are very close together.

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romero_waveform_flat spot explanation.JPG

Romerouk's Muller Replication

romero_waveform_flat spot explanation.JPG (56.68 kB, 751x484 - viewed 730 times.)

BEP	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #536 on: 2011-06-27, 21:31:27 »
Group: Guest	I am adding a optic 'marker pulse' to my spin generator for the purpose of proving the flat area is indeed where the three magnets are aligned. That part isn't difficult. Most of the weekend bench work was due to the differences between my device and the Romero set. I changed one set of coils and matched the magnets. The flat spot is still there. On a happy note: I rear-ended someone today and I'm afoot When you see that TV commercial using the phrase 'Ford Tough' know that they are liars. The Chevy I hit didn't have a scratch while my whole front-end caved in and the doors had to be pried open.

giantkiller

Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #537 on: 2011-06-27, 21:37:59 »

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Frequency equals matter...

Jaws of life on jaws of death?
Had a Ford Mustang and rear ended a Chevy van. I scratched his bumper, he pushed in my front end.

Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011-06-27, 21:31:27

I am adding a optic 'marker pulse' to my spin generator for the purpose of proving the flat area is indeed where the three magnets are aligned.

That part isn't difficult. Most of the weekend bench work was due to the differences between my device and the Romero set. I changed one set of coils and matched the magnets. The flat spot is still there.

On a happy note: I rear-ended someone today and I'm afoot

When you see that TV commercial using the phrase 'Ford Tough' know that they are liars. The Chevy I hit didn't have a scratch while my whole front-end caved in and the doors had to be pried open.

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http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

EMdevices	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #538 on: 2011-06-27, 21:45:48 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	I'm glad you're ok WW, sorry to hear about that. I hope you didn't tell any of the involved parties that you were distracted becasue you were thinking about free energy. EM

EMdevices	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #539 on: 2011-06-27, 22:22:05 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Here's a progression of charts showing what happens to induced voltage as the magnets are placed closer together on the rotor. Assumptions: Flux is obviously unipolar in these graphs, but in actuality the coil will see the reverse polarity after it passes the magnet, depending on dimentions and geometry, also, the peak of the flux will widen significanly depending on the gap to magnet diameter ratio. At small gaps, the peak will be a flat line for some width corresponding to the width of the magnet and this will give us those "flat spots" we've been discussing. So, this is just a rough qualitative simulation to illustrate how the waves become shaped. EM P.S. I added a few more with a shorter separation distance. Notice how we approach the AC waveform. By the way, I only use two flux pulses for these sims, but in actuality we would have a series of them (for uniform magnet placement around rotor) and the fact that we have positive flux is not important here because we are differentiating the flux to get the voltage and we can have any DC offset, and as it's apparent mashing two gaussian pulses together seems to create the apperance of a sinusoidal wave, which is very interesting. ------------------------ Romerouk's Muller Replication fluxsim_d7.JPG (55.73 kB, 923x770 - viewed 857 times.) Romerouk's Muller Replication fluxsim_d6.JPG (55.94 kB, 923x770 - viewed 846 times.) Romerouk's Muller Replication fluxsim_d5.JPG (55.84 kB, 923x770 - viewed 839 times.) Romerouk's Muller Replication fluxsim_d4.JPG (55.46 kB, 923x770 - viewed 746 times.) Romerouk's Muller Replication fluxsim_d3.JPG (54.96 kB, 923x770 - viewed 761 times.) « Last Edit: 2011-06-27, 23:03:37 by EMdevices »

poynt99	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #540 on: 2011-06-27, 22:26:25 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3216 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: Grumpy on 2011-06-27, 21:06:52 The flat part of the waveform si when the magnet on the rotor is aligned with the coil. i.e. there is very little flux change at that time. As the magnet is departing coil-space, another magnet arrives right after the departer of the first - hence the positive and neg pulses are very close together. Why are we not seeing this flat spot with Peter's and EM's wheels then? .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

EMdevices	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #541 on: 2011-06-27, 22:34:23 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	Quote Why are we not seeing this flat spot with Peter's and EM's wheels then? My only insight was that we are not using the same gap between the magnet and ferrite cores. Romero said he uses 3.5 mm If this is not it and proved wrong, than I'll be back at mystefying these "flat spots" just added a few more charts above. I'll do more sims by widening the peaks. EM

poynt99	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #542 on: 2011-06-27, 23:13:38 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3216 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: EMdevices on 2011-06-27, 22:34:23 My only insight was that we are not using the same gap between the magnet and ferrite cores. Romero said he uses 3.5 mm If this is not it and proved wrong, than I'll be back at mystefying these "flat spots" just added a few more charts above. I'll do more sims by widening the peaks. EM I would think that Peter has tried a variety of rotor/coil spacings by now, and he still has not seen that flat spot as far as I am aware. I'm not in agreement with Grumpy and WW on this one. TDC I believe is near the peak in the trace. It may be more correct to state that TDC actually covers a small range on either side of exact TDC. The negative transition after the positive peak begins because of ~~no net~~ a reduced change in flux at that point. The coil is at the edge of the "null zone". That carries the trace down to the "zero" level. From there, the magnet is beginning to depart out of the "null zone", and again the coil experiences an intense change in flux which drives the voltage below zero to the negative peak. That "null zone" is not nearly wide enough to cause the big flat spot we see in Romero's scope trace. .99 EDIT: changed "no net" to "a reduced" « Last Edit: 2011-06-28, 00:25:35 by poynt99 » --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Grumpy	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #543 on: 2011-06-27, 23:26:25 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: poynt99 on 2011-06-27, 22:26:25 Why are we not seeing this flat spot with Peter's and EM's wheels then? .99 That trace was taken when the device was self-running. Why does it run with gain? Quote from: Sir Arthur Conan Doyle Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

Chef

Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #544 on: 2011-06-27, 23:45:17 »

Jr. Member

Posts: 69

The scope shot may wasn't made from this device what we see on the videos!

My best guess, it was made from a different wheel, where there are less (maybe only one) magnet around the wheel, and the flat spots could be the spacing between the magnets.

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"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Grumpy	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #545 on: 2011-06-27, 23:56:46 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	OK, the pdf shows that famous scope trace as being with the coil "open circuit" - see attached. If the flat spot is not from the magnet being aligned with the coil then it is the magnets between the coils. Can't we correlate the polarity of the pulse to the polarity of the magnet and see what is what? http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/faraday2/ North approaches = positive pulse North recedes = negative pulse So, the deadtime is between pos and neg which is when the magnet is aligned with the coil. I base this on Romero saying south was "up" and the coils do not buck the magnets (they are in attraction mode). Here is another one - you can see the electrons: http://phet.colorado.edu/en/simulation/faraday ------------------------ Romerouk's Muller Replication Romero_scope-trace-coil-open-circuit.PNG (459.41 kB, 772x430 - viewed 536 times.) Romerouk's Muller Replication Romero_top-view-coils-rotor.PNG (1001.05 kB, 737x554 - viewed 633 times.)

BEP	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #546 on: 2011-06-28, 00:06:19 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: EMdevices on 2011-06-27, 21:45:48 I'm glad you're ok WW, sorry to hear about that. I hope you didn't tell any of the involved parties that you were distracted becasue you were thinking about free energy. EM Thanks. Actually I wasn't thinking of free energy at all. Maybe I should have As far as why EM and Perter aren't seeing the flat spot my best guess is the adjustments. At the small gaps between coils and magnets a very slight adjustment is a great deal of change in force. Then, you have the issue where nothing is stable until you have more than one near the adjustment range and better with three in a sequence. I'll be posting this work. We can compare to see what is really going on. Who knows? I may be completely whack. I've never bothered to throw a marker pulse on the display. I may be more surprised than others.

Magluvin	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #547 on: 2011-06-28, 00:12:20 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011-06-27, 21:31:27 I am adding a optic 'marker pulse' to my spin generator for the purpose of proving the flat area is indeed where the three magnets are aligned. Hey Wave I used an led to strobe a rotor to see where the magnet was during rotation. If you us a trigger, reed, hall, to light the led just when the mag is at tdc with the coils, very easy to set up and time it. Then you can add an additional trace to a scope also to see it both ways. The strobe visual is very cool and informative. Just set up the led above where you want to see. I fully believe the flat spot is between mags. One can simply see it. ;] There is a very short time crossing tdc vs the in between. Especially if you know that 1 half of the wave is the field cutting one side of the coil, then the field cuts the other side of the coil causing the other half of the wave.. It could be slightly off center maybe due to coil,capacitance delay, but I cannot see far from it. ;] Mags

EMdevices	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #548 on: 2011-06-28, 00:26:52 »
Hero Member Posts: 805	It's so nice of you all to speculate ! As an example, here's how the magnetic field varies with distance around a simple current loop. It will be similar for a cylindrical magnet of some thickness. In the graph, note the flat top developing around z=0.4. So like I said, a flat top of the flux will mean the derivative is zero, so the voltage is zero. That's why romeroUK's waveform has those flat spots at TDC, because his coils are very close to the magnet, with an air gap of only 3.5 mm. Peter what kind of gaps have you tried? EM P.S. Assumptions: I used a closed form equation to compute this graph, and this equation uses the complete elliptical integrals of first and second kind, which modify the results somewhat (slightly scale and adds some curvature to it), and these I have not implemented yet, as this software doesn't have a built in function and I just don't have the time right now to write the function. So the result is approximate if you will. ------------------------ Romerouk's Muller Replication flux_shape_variations.JPG (72.76 kB, 923x735 - viewed 591 times.) « Last Edit: 2011-06-28, 00:58:43 by EMdevices »

Grumpy	Re: Romerouk's Muller Replication « Reply #549 on: 2011-06-28, 00:35:35 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	What if Romero had the probe/ground backwards? ------------------------ Romerouk's Muller Replication romero_waveform03_inverted.JPG (46.88 kB, 751x337 - viewed 572 times.) Romerouk's Muller Replication romero_waveform03.JPG (46.71 kB, 751x337 - viewed 536 times.)