Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report

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Author Topic: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report (Read 57997 times)

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #100 on: 2011-04-22, 02:18:38 »
Group: Guest	Suppose the invention use buoyancy by letting water fill up the cylinder at the surface and pump air into the piston side when it reached the bottom. Let us simplify the case to which no work can be extract from the cylinder on the way upward (surfacing). Meaning it has barely enough buoyancy to surface. The energy extract from the device going down thereby proportional to the water height H. The energy needed to pump the water out is also the amount H. Such case cannot extract useful work. Let us consider the two scenairos. The top drawing shows air pumping into the cylinder. The energy used is H. As it surface, the cylinder expands which provide a greater surfacing force. Energy can be extracted from buoyancy. Air pressure is lost in the process. The bottom drawing shows air pumping into the cylinder. The energy used is H. Since now we have a stopper, it is a constant volume through out. This time we cannot extract energy from buoyancy, but at the surface, we can extract the air pressure to recover energy. The bottom line is, we can either utilize or recover input energy. ------------------------ Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report buoyancy.jpg (41.29 kB, 1092x661 - viewed 687 times.)

ltseung888	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #101 on: 2011-04-22, 11:13:14 »
Group: Guest	http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=785.100 Reply 100 Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2011-04-22, 02:18:38 Suppose the invention use buoyancy by letting water fill up the cylinder at the surface and pump air into the piston side when it reached the bottom. Let us simplify the case to which no work can be extract from the cylinder on the way upward (surfacing). Meaning it has barely enough buoyancy to surface. The energy extract from the device going down thereby proportional to the water height H. The energy needed to pump the water out is also the amount H. Such case cannot extract useful work. Let us consider the two scenarios. The top drawing shows air pumping into the cylinder. The energy used is H. As it surface, the cylinder expands which provide a greater surfacing force. Energy can be extracted from buoyancy. Air pressure is lost in the process. The bottom drawing shows air pumping into the cylinder. The energy used is H. Since now we have a stopper, it is a constant volume through out. This time we cannot extract energy from buoyancy, but at the surface, we can extract the air pressure to recover energy. The bottom line is, we can either utilize or recover input energy. Dear GIbbsHelmholtz, Very clever. You can do better with a third scenario. There are two stoppers. The first one is retractable so that the air can expand and push the water. The second one will stop the piston completely and trap the air inside. The air trapped will still have higher pressure than atmospheric and can be used to help to compress and force the water out from the bottom submarine container. You get the best of both worlds. The compressed air is NOT wasted! Water is ejected out just like the normal water rocket. However, you need to provide the full force (and thus energy) to displace the water the first time. In the second time, you will be assisted by the trapped, partially compressed air. Mr. James Kwok will love your posts – if he has not implemented that concept already. I personally find the Engineering Aspects too overwhelming. Multiple LCR resonance circuits remain my favorite. God sends his Angels to help. Humans have limited intelligence. Amen.

exnihiloest	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #102 on: 2011-04-22, 11:57:38 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: ramset on 2011-04-21, 13:19:35 EX And then of course there is the silly idea that we don't know everything ! Action reaction, take a magnet in your hand ,swipe it across an inductor you just caused a few meter per second action to have a 299792458 meters per second reaction [you must be very strong]. Well perhaps you think to yourself "Silly Boy"? And then there's this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc And maybe once again you think "So what silly boy" Perhaps you think you know everything there is to know................. Silly Boy.. Chet What a miracle! Attach a mass at each end of a spring, and move one. The reaction of the other will not be felt instantaneously by the first one. Waooo! Action without reaction! I'm a great inventor! Hey guys, take it, I don't want patent it, it is my gift to humanity! Ask you the question "how is the energy distributed" and you will get the solution of your pseudo miracle of lack of reaction from the coil onto the magnet. Energy conservation still applies.

Chet K	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #103 on: 2011-04-22, 13:08:24 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4044	So You see a "BUG" causing a 9000 C sonoluminescence event ,and you get "Springy" with that ? I ask another question You say how can O.U. be real ? ,if it was I the great "EX" would surely Know!! after all its been 100 years or more !! WOW mr.Ex, I guess the fact that the Silkworm was kept a secret for 5000 years is "Lost" on the likes of your Logic? You stand on a very big rock with a VERY soft foundation sir! Chet

exnihiloest	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #104 on: 2011-04-22, 13:55:57 »
Group: Guest	Instead of skipping about, seeing a miracle in each particular natural phenomenon rather than the common principles that they obey, why wouldn't you learn physics?

BEP	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #105 on: 2011-04-22, 14:16:05 »
Group: Guest	ramset, I must say that I seriously doubt any one of us is completely correct in any of the ideas we put forward. With that in mind.... you should not be so hard on folks that see an electron as a little ball orbiting another little ball or group of balls. At a minimum we shouldn't accuse such idiocy as containing no faith. What else could make such an idea possible other than faith? They have faith all our recent findings are correct and unchangeable. They see themselves as objective when they radiate one-sided beliefs. How can you be objective when the first statement you make is ' it isn't possible because......'? It has all just become very tiring for me to listen to the same crap over and over again. From the 'objective ones' AND from the so-called 'new discoveries'. I'll be happy when I can go back to concentrating on the GWave work. This stuff may have more free energy in it than anything else on this forum.

exnihiloest	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #106 on: 2011-04-22, 14:44:14 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2011-04-22, 02:18:38 ... The top drawing shows air pumping into the cylinder. The energy used is H. As it surface, the cylinder expands which provide a greater surfacing force. Energy can be extracted from buoyancy. Air pressure is lost in the process. The bottom drawing shows air pumping into the cylinder. The energy used is H. Since now we have a stopper, it is a constant volume through out. This time we cannot extract energy from buoyancy, but at the surface, we can extract the air pressure to recover energy. The bottom line is, we can either utilize or recover input energy. I agree 100%. There is no extra energy this way.

Chet K	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #107 on: 2011-04-22, 18:49:28 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4044	Hey EX Your right I do believe in miracles,The more I learn about our universe the more I believe in miracles, The biggest one being the rock we stand on............. As far as the bug that smashes Photons around at will,,,I don't think thats a miracle bud I think its opportunity knocking... Chet

exnihiloest	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #108 on: 2011-04-23, 10:51:38 »
Group: Guest	On Pesn, titled : Ash answers some questions about his recent visit to Hidro (http://pesn.com/2011/04/17/9501811_James_Kwoks_Hidro_Tech_Floating_to_the_Top/#Follow-up_QnA). Q. For how long of a period of time did you see the device self sustaining? A. The device can only be run for an hour with a 1Kw load A bit worrying for a perpetual motion machine. Q. were you allowed to look into the large tanks... A. It's a sealed unit you cant look inside Well, as a French humorist said, "when journalists know so little on a subject, they have the right to remain silent."

exnihiloest	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #109 on: 2011-04-23, 11:06:43 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: ramset on 2011-04-22, 18:49:28 Hey EX Your right I do believe in miracles,The more I learn about our universe the more I believe in miracles, The biggest one being the rock we stand on............. ... Are you talking about the "miracle" of life on our "rock"? If so, there is no miracle in an observation that the world where we live is compatible with the existence of observers able to make the observation. I don't see how it would be possible without this condition.

Chet K	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #110 on: 2011-04-23, 13:34:48 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4044	EX Cute,Next time you come to a big hill in your Car or stand on an overlook, or anyplace that you can see perhaps a measly 5 miles, Look UP towards the heavens...........,because the distance in front of you is pretty much all that seperates you from the rest of the universe above your head. Perhaps your Observations don't allow you to appreciate just how amazing that is ........... Try it some time, get that small distance in front of you in your head ......... And then Look up............ Gives me Goosebumps !![extra special on a clear night [the goose bumps ,get goosebumps]] Chet « Last Edit: 2011-04-23, 15:50:29 by ramset »

MileHigh	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #111 on: 2011-04-23, 16:28:41 »
Group: Guest	Wonders of the Universe.... Not. From the follow-up questions for Ash: Quote Q. For how long of a period of time did you see the device self sustaining? A. The device can only be run for an hour with a 1Kw load on it, the flywheel will burn the generator out otherwise, they did not have a 20Kw load there. I witnessed for a good 25 minutes at least There you go! After years of research James Kwok, allegedly an engineer, cannot figure out how to spec in an appropriate generator that is capable of driving a suitable load. So many of these alleged free energy machines have to be turned off after a short period of time otherwise they will "burn out." Note that sometimes they even have mysterious flywheels that are allegedly a source of power all by themselves. John Searl should be speaking to James Kwok. More tragicomic drama brought to you from Down Under.

eatenbyagrue	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #112 on: 2011-04-23, 19:46:19 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: ramset on 2011-04-23, 13:34:48 EX Cute,Next time you come to a big hill in your Car or stand on an overlook, or anyplace that you can see perhaps a measly 5 miles, Look UP towards the heavens...........,because the distance in front of you is pretty much all that seperates you from the rest of the universe above your head. Perhaps your Observations don't allow you to appreciate just how amazing that is ........... Try it some time, get that small distance in front of you in your head ......... And then Look up............ Gives me Goosebumps !![extra special on a clear night [the goose bumps ,get goosebumps]] Chet Your personal sense of wonder has no place in a scientific discussion.

Chet K	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #113 on: 2011-04-23, 21:04:22 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4044	Eatenbarbeque OH........... , A "scientific Discussion" ? See I thought you'd need some Facts about how the device actually "Do what it Do" to have a "Scientific Discussion" ? I was just Talkin with my Buddy EX!! [he's a cool guy] He makes me "think"! Chet

eatenbyagrue	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #114 on: 2011-04-23, 22:17:23 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: ramset on 2011-04-23, 21:04:22 Eatenbarbeque OH........... , A "scientific Discussion" ? See I thought you'd need some Facts about how the device actually "Do what it Do" to have a "Scientific Discussion" ? I was just Talkin with my Buddy EX!! [he's a cool guy] He makes me "think"! Chet We have enough information to deduce how this device purports to work, and discussion thus far has been helpful in basically debunking it. Although it sounds that according to you, none of this is necessary. It could work by miracle, fueled by the sense of wonder you feel in your heart when you look up and see the stars put there by Jeebus.

Chet K	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #115 on: 2011-04-23, 22:46:08 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4044	EatenBarbeQue Good News This one will have a lot more info for "Scientific Discussions". http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10518.msg282752#msg282752 its A present for another friend, MH A big one!! The "Effect" being investigated above has been "Independantly varified' and has had some Peer review,albeit under NDA's ! Whether it's a measurement error /missunderstanding of Transformer Theory,or "the real Mc'Coy" remains to be seen. Chet PS Never underestimate the power of Faith....................

eatenbyagrue	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #116 on: 2011-04-24, 01:31:43 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: ramset on 2011-04-23, 22:46:08 EatenBarbeQue A big one!! The "Effect" being investigated above has been "Independantly varified' and has had some Peer review,albeit under NDA's ! Whether it's a measurement error /missunderstanding of Transformer Theory,or "the real Mc'Coy" remains to be seen. Chet PS Never underestimate the power of Faith.................... I see your response is to mangle my forum handle and trail off with some lame comment about faith. Faith is the willingness to suspend reason and believe in something without evidence. So you go, knock yourself out with faith. Why don't you stick to the Jesus forums, and let the science guys talk about science?

Chet K	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #117 on: 2011-04-24, 01:50:52 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4044	Eaten Well I suppose Faith is all "perspective" ? Judging from your strong scientific Faith I will respect your "space". Nothing I have written implies Religion in anyway,they are just Observations. One observation I have made about this thread ............. Nobody really knows How it works ,but quite a few consider it "DEBUNKED"!! You call this Scientific discussion? I call it Silly............... Not saying you don't have a right to be silly, Quote: Faith is the willingness to suspend reason and believe in something without evidence. --------------- It just seems Like a "scientific discussion" should have more Actual Facts on the device instead of Faith based maybe's or could be's.............. Chet PS Sorry about the Missprint on your Handle Won't happen again [sometimes I forget to put on my Glass's]

MileHigh	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #118 on: 2011-04-24, 02:04:06 »
Group: Guest	Chet: You are wrong. I worked out some basic equations that state that this variation on a gravity motor will not work. I extended an open invitation to anyone to come here and explain how and why it should work. Look, a new posting on EF: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5600-hidro-hydrodynamic-cycle-techn.html#post138302 Quote I read everything on their website and watched all their videos so I contacted them by email. I have a possible alternative energy project going. I would have liked them to make a presentation to my board of directors. The project would be 1 to 2 Megawatts, just like the artists concept on their website. Their first response: Read our website... Everything you need to know is on our website. Their second response (after I gave them more details..) We don't have anyone under contract that can service your location and the minimum size that we would consider is 10 Megawatts. Therefore, my friends, don't expect anything from James Kwok but a stone wall. As to my initial analysis, this whole thing is based on compressing air and supplying it to one of two containers that travel up and down in a tank of water. My questions are NOT answered by the formulas in their PDF. I think they are purposefully hiding the important details. Still, the whole thing can be proven with a little experimentation. And, it should not cost all that much. Two containers able to hold air mounted on the two ends of a seesaw arrangement. Valves to release air when container is "shallow" Valves to add compressed air when container is "deep". Energy required to operate is AC to your shop air compressor. You'll have to put some gears on the shaft of the seesaw to convert the reciprocating motion into linear or rotational motions so you can do some measurable work. My project is still good. If you can do this and are near Atlanta, GA, send me a private message. Let's assume for the sake of argument that this person is legit. Seemingly a serious person that was hoodwinked into believing that the system actually works. Then a tepid response from Kwok. Perhaps Kwok is still trying to get "research and development" funds. This way he can draw a salary from the funding for perhaps two years and not actually have to produce anything so he remains safe. However, when somebody actually wants to build something then he runs away because he knows that he can't actually produce something that works. MileHigh

Chet K	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #119 on: 2011-04-24, 02:17:25 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4044	Sorry about the "silly" comment MH I don't think any of your Hard work is silly! Nor the time you spend "Wasted"! And The Odds are with you [as always]. I suppose I'm not really defending Kwok ,because at this point that would take a lot of Faith! seeing as The "How its done" part is not being disclosed! But one thing I do know is without the facts ,I will pass no Judgement on Kwok! But thats Just Me............ Chet PS AS things Progress on The Gabriel COP 8 device I would appreciate a look see! http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10518.msg282752#msg282752 I think something you and poynt said to EM might apply there?

BEP	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #120 on: 2011-04-24, 13:36:57 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: ramset on 2011-04-24, 02:17:25 And The Odds are with you [as always]. Not in this case. Quote I suppose I'm not really defending Kwok ,because at this point that would take a lot of Faith! seeing as The "How its done" part is not being disclosed! Enough has been disclosed to make a few wonder. The rest must not be capable of understanding what has been available. Quote But one thing I do know is without the facts ,I will pass no Judgement on Kwok! But thats Just Me............ Chet Not just you. My respect for you is growing.

eatenbyagrue	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #121 on: 2011-04-24, 18:29:48 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: ramset on 2011-04-24, 01:50:52 Eaten Well I suppose Faith is all "perspective" ? Judging from your strong scientific Faith I will respect your "space". Why is it that spiritual people equate their faith-driven beliefs with what scientists believe? Science actually requires no faith. If scientists exhibit faith-like behavior, in that they trust the work done previously, this is not belief without reason. Everything relied on has passed scientific trials, so there is ample reason to trust it. And most scientists are ready to withdraw their belief in any area given enough evidence to the contrary. Such attitude is very rare in the religious/spiritual realm, where people are proud to say, "my faith cannot be shaken under any circumstances." Anyway, as far as the Hidro system, this is a device that purports to violate the known laws of physics. We know enough generally about how it works. Milehigh has worked out the math for the energy required to push water from the bottom to the top, and it is equal to energy gained by the operation of the mechanism. What else is involved? Sure, there is a minute chance that something miraculous is hidden somewhere, but at this point, the burden is on the proponent of the system to show how it could possibly function. And by the way, I do not expect my faith in anything to be respected. If I am putting trust into a conclusion that is unsupportable, I expect to be challenged on it. No one should respect someone's beliefs purely because that person believes it strongly. That is just nonsense.

BEP	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #122 on: 2011-04-24, 19:55:45 »
Group: Guest	eatenbyagrue, It should be agreed that no faith is required or applicable in these matters. I see nothing wrong with MH's math, only the application of it. If the system works as MH has show is his understanding then certainly it is as he describes. I have very serious doubts his functional description is correct. "purports to violate the known laws of physics"? Have you read the documentation? Nothing personal but do you understand the functional diagrams? I will say I found the functional diagram and some of the documentation to disagree. I have the impression Kwok's documents are over-generalized. Perhaps to make it easier for those potential investors?

Chet K	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #123 on: 2011-04-25, 02:42:13 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4044	eatenbyagrue, I don't know what else to call what you do? The opinion or Knowledge that you know everything there is to know ? In this case as it applies to Kwok ,and a device with undisclosed mechanisms and components! Calling him a liar, a scammer, a Fraud To me this is a leap of faith not a scientific evaluation! I'm sorry It just isn't in my frame of reference. And as far as this, Quote: No one should respect someone's beliefs purely because that person believes it strongly. That is just nonsense. ------------ Where I come from thats just called good Manners! Chet PS WW Thanks « Last Edit: 2011-04-25, 03:07:28 by ramset »

MileHigh	Re: Scooping Ash's Panacea "Hidro" report « Reply #124 on: 2011-04-25, 03:11:41 »
Group: Guest	I may not have the exact modeling for James Kwok's setup. For example, the buoys may contain bladders that expand as the buoys rise increasing the buoyancy. That doesn't matter, the equations will show that there is no energy gain just the same. It's fair to say that any variation on the theme will still show a net-zero gain. We are left wondering if James Kwok hsas something hidden behind a curtain. I say there is nothing behind the curtain. Chet hopes that there is something. Others have differing opinions. I would also state that there is no credible data all all that it works. It exposes a great flaw in the free energy community that comes up over and over again, the flaw being that very few demand solid data. In Sterling's report he stated that Ash brushed off any requests for specifics about the over unity data. This was about five days ago. There is not a single posting asking Ash about this critical issue All that I can say is that the clock is on my side!

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