Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment

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Author Topic: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment (Read 329786 times)

BEP	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #200 on: 2012-02-28, 13:45:37 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-02-28, 13:11:51 Your answer is also incorrect. One doesn't need to perform this experiment to know the answers to these relatively simple questions, if one truly understands the dynamics involved. What has become clear is that neither you nor Harvey have a good understanding of the dynamics involved in this experiment. It's therefore ironic that you both believe I am wrong about the statements I've made thus far. I encourage both of you to perform this experiment and make the measurements I have outlined here. Prove it to yourself. exnihiloest has the correct values, but the experiment is not nearly as sensitive to error as he has alluded to. The correct answer to the most recent question regarding the RIGHT side of the experiment, is: CH1 = 0.9V CH2 = 0.9V Of course when we move the probes to the LEFT side, the answer will be: CH1 = -0.1V CH2 = -0.1V Not while using galvanometers. Yes, I now wish more than ever to perform the experiment. Agreed, sarcasm is problematic on text based forums. I'll quote and comment rather than repeat and hope folks get it. Ex is wrong simply because there is no reversal of magnetic polarity on a setup identical to the Lewin experiment anywhere outside the coil except above and below the coil. Harvey is correct about impedance being an important consideration. Apparently, the dynamics aren't as simple as stated. With that said, Yes, I will start assembling the experiment and report back here as soon as possible.

BEP	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #201 on: 2012-02-28, 13:50:39 »
Group: Guest	One additional question...... Are you using differential probes on that single scope? Two scopes with isolated chassis? One probe at a time? The reason I ask is I believe the Lewin experiment is using differential amplifiers between the probes and the scopes.

poynt99	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #202 on: 2012-02-28, 13:52:26 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Regarding the most recent question I posed, Ex is correct actually. Both scope channels will indicate the SAME voltage. btw, I have been asking questions about indicated voltages, NOT theories. For now, I would ask that all please answer the questions accordingly. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

poynt99	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #203 on: 2012-02-28, 13:58:35 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012-02-28, 13:50:39 One additional question...... Are you using differential probes on that single scope? Two scopes with isolated chassis? One probe at a time? The reason I ask is I believe the Lewin experiment is using differential amplifiers between the probes and the scopes. Not shown, but yes. It should be assumed that there is no interaction between the probes, i.e. complete isolation. I agree on the diff amp/probe, but I was hesitant to say so in fear of another arduous diversion. Obviously if one uses one probe at a time, there is no such isolation problem. In my tests, I used one conventional passive 10x probe only at all times. For the decoupled measurements, I used twin-lead wire strung straight up to the ceiling, then over and down to the scope a few feet away. The twin-lead then was connected to the same 10x probe. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #204 on: 2012-02-28, 14:03:29 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-02-26, 17:47:59 The voltages measured are as per the diagram (within 10% error or less), REGARDLESS if there is a slight angle on the scope leads or not. In fact, you will measure +0.9 and -0.1V at any and every angle you can imagine, and this makes perfect sense when you understand the dynamics of what is going on. ... Please clarify what do you mean by " any and every angle". The way I understand it is that when the position is normal, let's say it's 90 degrees. When you have CH2 on the right, it's 0 degrees and when you have it on the left it's 180 degrees. Is this correct?

poynt99	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #205 on: 2012-02-28, 16:04:19 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-02-28, 14:03:29 Please clarify what do you mean by " any and every angle". The way I understand it is that when the position is normal, let's say it's 90 degrees. When you have CH2 on the right, it's 0 degrees and when you have it on the left it's 180 degrees. Is this correct? I should have been more specific. Imagine a vertical plane normal to the loop and intersecting the 900 Ohm resistor. By "any angle" this means any angle including and to the right of this plane, with reference to the probes connected to points 9 and 9'. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #206 on: 2012-02-28, 16:16:15 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-02-28, 16:04:19 I should have been more specific. Imagine a vertical plane normal to the loop and intersecting the 900 Ohm resistor. By "any angle" this means any angle including and to the right of this plane, with reference to the probes connected to points 9 and 9'. So this means any angle to the left of this plane would give a different value?

poynt99	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #207 on: 2012-02-28, 16:18:29 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Yes. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #208 on: 2012-02-28, 16:39:40 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-02-28, 16:18:29 Yes. I see. So you're saying if the plane is to the right from 0 - 90 degrees, the value would be .9V . When it pass to the left 90-180 degrees, it suddenly change its value. And what do you suggest this value is?

poynt99	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #209 on: 2012-02-28, 17:08:35 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-02-28, 16:39:40 I see. So you're saying if the plane is to the right from 0 - 90 degrees, the value would be .9V . When it pass to the left 90-180 degrees, it suddenly change its value. And what do you suggest this value is? You tell me. I've already given you enough information to formulate an answer. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #210 on: 2012-02-28, 17:18:47 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-02-28, 17:08:35 You tell me. I've already given you enough information to formulate an answer. I don't know. That's why I ask. I think it's the same value because if not, we have to rewrite Ohm's law. But why speculate when you already done the experiment.

poynt99	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #211 on: 2012-02-28, 17:22:41 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	You already have all the necessary information to formulate an answer. However, it won't hurt to make another diagram, which will help you and provide more insight. I'll post that shortly. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

poynt99	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #212 on: 2012-02-28, 17:39:09 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	What will be the indicated voltage on CH2? ------------------------ Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment above_v11'_right.png (11.01 kB, 680x722 - viewed 670 times.) --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

BEP	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #213 on: 2012-02-28, 17:43:22 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-02-28, 13:52:26 Regarding the most recent question I posed, Ex is correct actually. Both scope channels will indicate the SAME voltage. btw, I have been asking questions about indicated voltages, NOT theories. For now, I would ask that all please answer the questions accordingly. I see now why my answers are no better than theories and why Ex is correct. Ex's comment pertains to your setup and my 'theories' do not. All along, I've been trying to imagine how you were rotating your scope around the DUT with a 6' probe wire. That would have been silly anyway. It would be easier to rotate the DUT and leave the scope on the bench. I do appreciate the mental gymnastics but I should have stuck to my guns when I said I couldn't say what you would measure. So, no more theories from me

poynt99	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #214 on: 2012-02-28, 17:48:51 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	The time for the theory behind the dynamics involved is approaching, but it's necessary to look at the empirical results and feel out everyone's perspectives first, which is what I have been trying to do up to this point. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #215 on: 2012-02-28, 17:51:58 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-02-28, 17:39:09 What will be the indicated voltage on CH2? I suppose .1V .

poynt99	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #216 on: 2012-02-28, 18:00:16 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Let's wait for Harvey and WW to post their answers before I respond. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

poynt99	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #217 on: 2012-02-28, 18:12:44 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012-02-28, 17:43:22 I see now why my answers are no better than theories and why Ex is correct. Ex's comment pertains to your setup and my 'theories' do not. I have performed a number of additional measurements compared to Lewin, but aside from that "my setup" is not all that different. And it seems you disagree? Quote All along, I've been trying to imagine how you were rotating your scope around the DUT with a 6' probe wire. That would have been silly anyway. It would be easier to rotate the DUT and leave the scope on the bench. I do appreciate the mental gymnastics but I should have stuck to my guns when I said I couldn't say what you would measure. The tendency does seem to be that folks want to over-complicate things, and this is and has been the case in this discussion as well. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Harvey	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #218 on: 2012-02-29, 01:50:40 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-02-28, 18:00:16 Let's wait for Harvey and WW to post their answers before I respond. I have no desire to contribute any further to this nonsense - .99 has boldly claimed that my comments are incorrect, so obviously my experience and expertise in this area are meaningless to this forum - at least from his perspective. It is very clear that he has not paid careful attention to my comments and has digressed the discussion to such an extent that the topic has very little to do with the thread title. What is even worse, he is misleading the readers based on his own measurement errors. My comments are supported not only by University (MIT) empirical evidence, but also by Farday's Law (not theory or conjecture) and is also supported by documents within high tech engineering circles. The scope impedance is so high in these tests that the induced current in those loops produces no appreciable EMF regardless of their orientation, size of the loop or distance from the solenoid. However it is needed to provide an accurate evaluation. But I am confident that it is well below my +/- 0.1V error margin offered in my answer. So my answer stands - final answer.

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #219 on: 2012-02-29, 02:45:39 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Harvey on 2012-02-29, 01:50:40 I have no desire to contribute any further to this nonsense - .99 has boldly claimed that my comments are incorrect, so obviously my experience and expertise in this area are meaningless to this forum - at least from his perspective. It is very clear that he has not paid careful attention to my comments and has digressed the discussion to such an extent that the topic has very little to do with the thread title. What is even worse, he is misleading the readers based on his own measurement errors. My comments are supported not only by University (MIT) empirical evidence, but also by Farday's Law (not theory or conjecture) and is also supported by documents within high tech engineering circles. The scope impedance is so high in these tests that the induced current in those loops produces no appreciable EMF regardless of their orientation, size of the loop or distance from the solenoid. However it is needed to provide an accurate evaluation. But I am confident that it is well below my +/- 0.1V error margin offered in my answer. So my answer stands - final answer. I know how you feel, but I don't think Poynt is misleading the readers. If he saids .9/.9V on both channel, then that is the measurement. It is also surprising to me but I'm glad to know new things. Let's give him a chance to express his view.

poynt99	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #220 on: 2012-02-29, 04:15:52 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: Harvey on 2012-02-29, 01:50:40 I have no desire to contribute any further to this nonsense [snip] That's disappointing Harvey, but I'm not surprised. Quote What is even worse, he is misleading the readers based on his own measurement errors. You have provided no proof of either allegation. I've done the measurements (and more), so I have empirical proof. Where is your own empirical evidence? Quote My comments are supported not only by University (MIT) empirical evidence, but also by Farday's Law (not theory or conjecture) and is also supported by documents within high tech engineering circles. Evidently, your comments are supported only by dogma. Try giving some actual measurements a go, then you'll be in a position to formulate an analysis based on experience, just as I have. So we will continue moving forward Gibbs, with or without Harvey, and WW too it seems. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

poynt99	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #221 on: 2012-02-29, 04:30:43 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: Harvey on 2012-02-29, 01:50:40 So my answer stands - final answer. Gibbs, would you agree that Harvey is saying the answer to the latest question and associated diagram, is -0.1V? If so, then that is two, yourself and Harvey that say the indicated voltage would be -0.1V. --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #222 on: 2012-02-29, 04:34:41 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-02-29, 04:15:52 So we will continue moving forward Gibbs, with or without Harvey, and WW too it seems. I hope they will continue following. I learn a lot from their point of view. Ok, the last diagram I said .1V . I suppose this is wrong. I'm all ears. Let's do this. lol I said .1V because the positive probe is at the bottom, but doesn't matter unless it's correct. lol

poynt99	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #223 on: 2012-02-29, 04:37:59 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012-02-29, 04:34:41 I hope they will continue following. I learn a lot from their point of view. Ok, the last diagram I said .1V . I suppose this is wrong. I'm all ears. Let's do this. lol I said .1V because the positive probe is at the bottom, but doesn't matter unless it's correct. lol The positive probe is on top, so the answer, if correct, would be -0.1V. ------------------------ Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment above_v11'_right.png (11.01 kB, 680x722 - viewed 743 times.) --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: Professor Walter Lewin's Non-conservative Fields Experiment « Reply #224 on: 2012-02-29, 04:44:32 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2012-02-29, 04:37:59 The positive probe is on top, so the answer, if correct, would be -0.1V. Fair enough, I'll buy that.

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