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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Inductive Kickback Circuits > The Death of the Lenz Law
2024-11-28, 07:56:21
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Author Topic: The Death of the Lenz Law  (Read 170342 times)
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img  Grumpy
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #50 on: 2011-02-20, 19:31:20 »

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tExB=qr
RomerUK's test cictuit and build:
   
img  poynt99
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #51 on: 2011-02-20, 19:31:48 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: darkspeed on 2011-02-20, 15:16:52



Ok, so a number of you have taken the time to point out  - Romero is wrong , he does not know what he is doing , he does not know how a coil works….

In your expert opinion how is the energy stored - conserved -  in the shorted coil to be released when the reed opens

Is this essentially the circuit for which your question applies DS?



.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  poynt99
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #52 on: 2011-02-20, 19:53:44 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
This seems to me to be a highly inefficient way to drive a load, if the load is that LED. A JT for example, is probably a better way to go.

There is nothing special happening here actually. What he has done is indirectly created a boost circuit by shorting the output coil, and this is why the efficiency (i.e. LED is brighter) is higher this way rather than relying strictly on induction from the rotating magnets.

I somehow doubt that Lenz has died in this application. I believe it is more of an efficiency issue. This fellow really needs to measure his input and output power to get a feel for his efficiency first, before jumping to any conclusions.

It only takes a few tens of milliwats to drive an LED on, and he could be pumping far more than that into the drive coil.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  darkspeed
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #53 on: 2011-02-20, 20:08:47 »
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Yes .99 the last diagram is the one in question.

I was not assuming it was in any way over unity.

I was more curious what was happening in the coil between the time the reed relay closed and opened.

Am I correct that if his rotor was spinning the wrong direction the leds would not light due to the diode?

At first I thought that the shorting/unshorting was reversing the flow of energy stored in the coil so the led would light.

Second question is where exactly is the energy being stored when the coil is shorted and in what form, magnetic, capacitive?

I have seen quite a lot of energy stored in a shorted tesla secondary, is this working the same way?
   
img  poynt99
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #54 on: 2011-02-20, 20:26:18 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: darkspeed on 2011-02-20, 20:08:47
Yes .99 the last diagram is the one in question.

I was not assuming it was in any way over unity.

I was more curious what was happening in the coil between the time the reed relay closed and opened.

Am I correct that if his rotor was spinning the wrong direction the leds would not light due to the diode?
I don't think so. Due to the arrangement of the magnets, i.e. a N and S pole present at the edge, either direction would work to light the LED, but in each case, the reed switch will have to be moved to a different position, i.e. advanced or retarded timing in relation to the other direction. If you were to scope the output of that coil (no shorting) as the magnet flew by, you would see a positive, followed by a negative pulse (or vice versa).

Quote
At first I thought that the shorting/unshorting was reversing the flow of energy stored in the coil so the led would light.
He is utilizing the IK to light the LED, vs. conventional induction. I wonder if his diagram is correct though. Can that LED ever light? That diode may be backwards.

Quote
Second question is where exactly is the energy being stored when the coil is shorted and in what form, magnetic, capacitive?
This is no different than any other pulsed coil; the energy is stored in its magnetic field.

Quote
I have seen quite a lot of energy stored in a shorted tesla secondary, is this working the same way?
It may be a bit of a stretch, but I suppose you might say it is similar. There may be a fair bit of energy stored in the "capacity" of  TC secondary though as well.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  darkspeed
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #55 on: 2011-02-20, 20:31:45 »
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I should have been more specific.. In his diagram he shows N|S but in his actual demo unit it appears he only has the N facing the outside edge of the rotor.

This is why I was questioning if the rotational direction could prevent the leds from lighting but the flyback from the coil would then be in the correct direction to pass the diode and light the leds.

Or maybe that is N|S its hard to tell... from the photo
   
img  poynt99
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #56 on: 2011-02-20, 20:33:19 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Well, in that respect then, yes. It would only work in one direction.

What of that diode though, is it not shown in the wrong direction?

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  darkspeed
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #57 on: 2011-02-20, 20:36:39 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2011-02-20, 20:33:19
Well, in that respect then, yes. It would only work in one direction.

What of that diode though, is it not shown in the wrong direction?

.99

Haha well yes that too.. I guess depending on the type of diode.. but with leds as a load then yes it is in the wrong way.
   
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Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #58 on: 2011-02-20, 20:43:07 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: darkspeed on 2011-02-20, 20:36:39
Haha well yes that too.. I guess depending on the type of diode.. but with leds as a load then yes it is in the wrong way.

Unless he is relying on the IK pulse to get through via the diode junction capacitance?

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  darkspeed
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #59 on: 2011-02-20, 20:45:52 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2011-02-20, 20:26:18

This is no different than any other pulsed coil; the energy is stored in its magnetic field.

.99

So once the domain is established in the core material ( steel ? ) and the coil is shorted, there is no real load presented to the coil so the energy in the coil circulates until the reed opens and the coil is presented with a load and the leds light.

yes.. no..

reminds me of leedskalnin
   
img  poynt99
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #60 on: 2011-02-20, 21:13:07 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: darkspeed on 2011-02-20, 20:45:52
So once the domain is established in the core material ( steel ? ) and the coil is shorted, there is no real load presented to the coil so the energy in the coil circulates until the reed opens and the coil is presented with a load and the leds light.

yes.. no..

reminds me of leedskalnin



While it is shorted, it is sort of its own load really. But yes, the field builds up, is stored during the time the coil is "shorted", then it releases the stored energy to the LED.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  darkspeed
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #61 on: 2011-02-20, 21:55:52 »
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Thanks .99

Im fascinated by this for some reason.

If we said that the magnet passing the coil was one cycle

Then on the first half of that cycle the energy flow in the circuit would be blocked by the led, so there would be no real load on the coil.

Then mid cycle the coil is shorted and the energy in the coil is stored

So if we are assuming that the led is lit by the energy stored in the coil

The energy released from the coil would need to be flowing in the opposite direction to light the led

So do you have the stored energy flowing to the led

or

do you have the stored energy + the domain change from the departing magnet
   
img  Chet K
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #62 on: 2011-02-20, 22:53:07 »
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Poynt
Just for clarity,"The Death of Lenz" quote
Came from Stefan on the Ismael thread!

Chet
   
img  MileHigh
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #63 on: 2011-02-20, 22:59:00 »
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I'll offer some comments.

The diode in the output circuit is indeed backwards, so there is an error in the schematic.  It's worth it to mention that you don't even need it.

Let's examine what happens when the reed switch is not being used:

When the rotor turns you assume that there is no current flowing.  You know that the coil is producing AC EMF.  When the EMF is reverse-biasing the light emitting diodes then it's a no-brainer, there will be no current flow.  When the EMF is forward-biasing the LEDs, we can assume that the voltage is not high enough to overcome the total forward voltage of the LEDs + diode required to get current to flow.  Note he has about a half-dozen LEDs and we can safely assume that they are wired in series.  So the EMF required to get current to flow is probably greater than 10 volts.

Now let's examine what happens when the reed switch is being used:

When the switch closes now current can flow through the coil from magnetic induction.  It takes energy to induce current to flow in the coil, and that manifests itself as magnetic repulsion on the rotor.  There is your Lenz' Law in action.

The direction of the current flow in the coil is critical because it can flow in two directions.  Only one of the directions will create an inductive kickback in the right direction to light up the LEDs.  Therefore the positioning of the reed switch is critical because it will affect which way the current will flow.

The current is induced to flow in the coil because of the changing magnetic flux from the magnet fly-bys.  Increasing flux induces current flow in one direction and decreasing flux induces current flow in the other direction.

Why does the inductive kickback light up the LEDs?  Because a discharging inductor acts like a current source.  That means you could put one LED, two LEDs, 10 LEDs or 50 LEDs in series, it doesn't matter, they will all light up.  The more LEDs there are the less time they will light up.

This clip and this setup was so basic and goes over a recurring theme that most of you have seen hundreds of times before.

I'll just rephrase what I said at the beginning of this example:  If you understood how coils work then you would be able to look at this clip and immediately recognize that nothing special was going on.  My advice is for those experimenters that are truly interested is to stop everything for a few weeks and invest all of your energy into learning how inductors really work.  Go online and do some research, get some books, etc.  Study the material over and over until it sinks in.

MileHigh
   
img  ion
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #64 on: 2011-02-21, 00:07:24 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Guys...nothing new here. This is very similar to the standard magneto ignition circuit used on lawn mower type engines before they went solid state. Current is allowed to build in primary coil by virtue of the magnet fly by and at the right moment, usually close to TDC the circuit is interrupted by the "points" opening, and the resultant energetic flux change is transferred to an overwound HV secondary, to the spark plug igniting the mixture.

If he really wants to learn about this, he should study the early B&S, Bosch, Electrolux and Dykstra patents.

Here's a solid state way to do it:





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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  darkspeed
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #65 on: 2011-02-21, 00:30:38 »
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Wow MileHigh, way to bruise a guys ego, I have not been told to go back to school in a long time. lol.

I appreciate your answer. It is  textbook correct and the "immediately recognized" solution.

My purpose was to find any alternate opinions as I was not completely satisfied with the conversion of energy in the circuit.



ION.. Thanks, I have a vintage Porsche that has the original style magneto, I did not even think about that..
   
img  MileHigh
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #66 on: 2011-02-21, 00:57:16 »
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Darkspeed:

There is no such thing as "immediately recognized" vs. "alternate" explanations.  In addition, I don't think many people immediately recognized what was going on, and that is a problem as far as I am concerned.  There is only the truth about what is going on.  After a certain point in experimenting and playing with coils, people should really learn how they work if they want to make their research more meaningful and fruitful and productive.

That's just my personal take on it, I can't tell anybody what to do.  When I see how much time is wasted going over these easily explainable circuits I think once in a while it's worth it to say that people should learn the basics.

MileHigh
   
img  Chet K
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #67 on: 2011-02-21, 00:58:24 »
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From Stefan at OU

Hi all,
I received this message from Isamel:

Hi, to all

My own technical view to open the free energy window;

1st. Low impedance load (To radiate enough Bemf or creating dominant freq or creating a carrier freq. to reach the Higher freq to attract surounding energy ) Using High resistance load will kill the effect.  Most designer based from the advantage & convenience of High impedance design..like Bedini, Newman, Hector RV,  & many more , but they forget Tesla always use very very low impedance & short it to the capacitor to create a very powerful vibration or oscillation.  

2nd Circulating voltage  inside the system minimum of 5 KV ( the more higher voltage the lesser grip of Lenz law )

3rd. Circulating freq. above 700Mhz  ( If you gain 10watts at 1 Hz or one shorting pulse/sec, why not make it 1 million shorting per second ? using same input )

Shorting will be the main process to manipulate the  above  3 basic requirement. The  more shorting the more free  energy you  can get. Unlimited extraction of free energy. Totally depend on the budget. The more extraction of  energy, the more overheating of parts, the more  R & D cost required for parts development alone to withstand the saturation of destructive spikes.  I considered Kone is the master of shorting in  a low freq. process.

As per latest survey, based from Keelynet.com info. 20 trillion dollars burned just to extract free energy with substantial work , but so far no valid result, I think my technology will be excluding n the statistic survey. I am now very very near to the  reality of real application , We hope everybody can benefit. Still a lot  to do & more need funding for  R & D.

A lot asking How about the Parallel flynn technology using P. magnet? For me  It's a free energy, but limited up to 20 Hz only. Push beyond the 20hz the P. magnet power start to be depleted or no gain at all. The sterling engine & P. magnet with similarity. Hard to apply into real application. Like PM , Sterling was so slow to react to the require application to contineosly extract free energy.  

Update : re : Government testing of my technology MIGHT be next week. using the same DC motor power by conventional power supply  or battery & compare the output work power by my own technology. I requested this since last year DEC 2010, with a little  help of push from some of friends in the Government & Media.

I will keep you update re: the testing,

BTw, As per the producer info I recieved yesterday, I think tomorrow or Tuesday my TV interview with Chn 7 ( biggest TV network in the Phill.) will be air including the footage meeting with technical evaluation council created by the Government specially for my energy.

Is
« Last Edit: 2011-02-21, 01:59:32 by ramset »
   
img  poynt99
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #68 on: 2011-02-21, 01:27:37 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Good luck to Ismael.

The only question I have is:

With his apparent knowledge, why hasn't he been able to perform the test he just described? If he has done it, has he published it? It seems to me that this is fundamental, and the first thing one would want to do in order to prove it to themselves at least, before going public.

Oh well, the trend continues for now....

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  MileHigh
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #69 on: 2011-02-21, 01:29:55 »
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Chet:

That message from Ismael just reinforces the fact that he is not credible as far as I am concerned.

Quote
A lot asking How about the Parallel flynn technology using P. magnet? For me  It's a free energy, but limited up to 20 Hz only. Push beyond the 20hz the P. magnet power start to be depleted or no gain at all. The sterling engine & P. magnet with similarity. Hard to apply into real application.

If the Charles Flynn "Parallel Path Magnetic Technology" was actually real and worked, it would not matter one iota if it was limited to 20 Hz.  If it was real it would totally transform the world in ten years and it would be the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.  There would be no limit to the applications it could be used in.

There is no reason that Ismael can't do a credible demo of his stuff like Poynt said.  It doesn't require a car, that's just a diversion, a smokescreen.  Let's see him do a credible demo of his stuff on a bench.

MileHigh
   
img  Chet K
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #70 on: 2011-02-21, 02:03:37 »
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Somehow I don't think Ismael is shying away from testing,On the contrary he is soliciting the Gov't of the philipines to fully test and authenticate his claims! [like yesterday]

Chet
   
img  MileHigh
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #71 on: 2011-02-21, 02:54:28 »
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Chet:

If the government testing "falls through" or he claims it is being done but can't offer up any specifics and you never see a report then you can suspect that it's just a story.  Personally I already suspect that it's just a story.  Did he mention which government department and section is supposed to be doing the testing?

MileHigh
   
img  MileHigh
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #72 on: 2011-02-21, 09:26:47 »
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I skimmed over some of the Ismael stuff on OU.  There is a fair amount of excitement about this.  I can see a snowball effect happening where people start to put on blinders and make references to technology that never worked as building blocks for what Ismael is allegedly doing.

Meanwhile, some excerpts from a new message from Ismael:

Quote
I am recieving  a lot of positive response & some negative , but only 2% skeptics from more than 12,000 email.

Based from survey .

Do you really believe that Ismael got 12,000 emails?  I have no clue what he means by "survery" but if you spent 20 seconds on each email, it would take you 66.6 hours to go through all of them.  The YouTube hits for his clips for his clips vary between about 900 to about 4000, with average probably around 1500.  There are 4184 reads of the thread on OU as I write this.  Use your common sense here.

Quote
On the side of skeptics. Here's where I am most worried. Not only pulling me down, but it will cost hard earned money whoever they can able to convince & finance.

Most of these skeptics brilliant people are armchair scientist, stupid / Ignorant design engineers & Inventor. The most appropriate name to these  kind of people who's don't respect the hardship , pains experienced of the real inventor.. is a TALKING PARROT.

We should always BEWARE of  scam artist , but with the same level of awareness, be careful as well to any scientist , inventor  or engineer's,,, happen to be your technical consultant, convincing & claiming. They can duplicate my system, by just buying a bank of LIthium ion/polymer, the ( BMS ) battery management module & a 220V 63amps DC motor. my estimate ,,It will cost with the same dimension set up of 1/2 ( hidden part ) black box & motor minimum  total of $15,000.

Actually that is a big lie. Before you believe, first call the Lithium battery supplier not one. Ask several supplier from China to USA. Give them the motor spec the minimum current of 25amps - 63amps & maximum of 150amps for starting. The better way is show them my Ecar video running back & forward. They will tell what really the capability of the Lithium ion.

FYI, for the  last two months, I am personally sourcing possible supplier of LI ion all over the world. Until now I don't receive any response of commitment & guarranty these will work, by just using LI ion with 220 v & 10AH.  Most they said, a 150amps starting current of the motor will quickly overheat & eventually destroy the 10AH  LI ion battery internal wiring connection.

I am sure some skeptic bashing makes him feel good.  Even though English is not his native language and trying to factor that out, what he says is still rambling, incoherent, and sometimes contradictory.  Not exactly what a "brilliant genius" would be saying in my opinion.  Furthermore, you don't call the LI battery suppliers and ask them for a solution to fit your requirements.  What you would normally do is design your system around the capabilities of the available LI batteries in the marketplace.  This "cart before the horse" design mentality doesn't smell right to me in this case.

Note one more time you see some "big talk" about looking for Lithium-Ion battery suppliers all over the world.  The "big talk" is preliminary, and just using the same very expensive battery technology that goes into laptops doesn't smell right to me.

Quote
To those who realy happy to burn money just to prove is not problem. To those who will not stop accusing me as a scam artist. I challenge them of risking the exposure of my technology( opening the hidden part of the black box,  just to prove I don't  have the LIthium ion, once I  am  right I will run the car over their face. For those no balls to be run over & offer me 1 million dollar & I will open it & collect the money once I am right.

Any skeptics who canno't accept that challenge, just keep quite & wait the testing process.

I wouldn't pay a million bucks to have somebody run me over!  lol  What you really have here is the "inventor" playing the "lottery ticket" card.  "Give me an outrageous amount of money to see my technology and get your proof right away."  Sure dude!  You might get lucky and find a wild and crazy and really rich guy with a free energy obsession that will make your dreams come true.

Quote
Re: Government testing schedule still waiting for everybody availability. I add some additional testing parameters to increased the testing credibility.

1st. I want parallel test with  my power supply technology & switch to standard power supply from the  wall outlet & then measure the volts amps, torque & rpm. will be at least 10 times of switch over. Actually this idea from Konehead.

 2nd. Test a standard commonly used for electric car series DC motor 36 volts, Just building up the database & comparison to that level.  

Well I really don't understand what he is saying with respect to these two tests that are supposed to add credibility to his proposition.  The people on the OU forum following this should press Ismael to explain what he really means in #1 and #2 above.  Don't cave in and just be yes-men with respect to these points.  You should ask him to explain what he means in detail.

MileHigh
   
img  Chet K
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #73 on: 2011-02-21, 13:34:35 »
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MH
He outlines the Technique!

Its either there or it isn't,and having lots of folks playing with this ,will bring out the facts !

Chet
   
img  MileHigh
Re: The Death of the Lenz Law « Reply #74 on: 2011-02-21, 14:28:20 »
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Quote from: ramset on 2011-02-21, 13:34:35
MH
He outlines the Technique!

Its either there or it isn't,and having lots of folks playing with this ,will bring out the facts !

Chet

I am under the impression that nobody can play with it.  The "secret sauce" is hidden inside a black box.

By the way, when they took the drive on the electric car prototype through the neighbourhood, it looks to me that they had a few extra big batteries hidden under the bench that the two of them were sitting on.  I am pretty sure for that series of clips you never see that spot clearly.  When you get a shot of the electric car from behind, there are two white panels that obscure any kind of clear view.

Notice also that for the drive around the neighbourhood all of the weird looking electronics stuff that was on the back of the car magically disappears and is replaced by a small cylinder with a coil of wire around it.  I suppose that's the "antenna" that he claims is picking up energy.

I probably won't comment much more because almost everything that this guy does is like Swiss cheese.  Everything is screaming "Fraud!" to me.  I am more or less content to wait for the big bust whenever it happens.

MileHigh
   
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