Large Toroidal Coil

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2024-11-26, 19:48:22
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Author Topic: Large Toroidal Coil (Read 17888 times)

Peterae	Large Toroidal Coil « on: 2011-02-05, 12:37:40 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Something i have been playing with just recently, but i have reached a point where my laptop scope crashes. I built a toroidal form coil wound with bifilar wire all the way around, 1 of these is joined at the ends to form an endless coil the other is broken and has the yellow trace scope probe connected, i also wound a single wire at each 180 degree position on the toroid to drive the endless coil with. I also wound some bifilar around the periphery of the toroidal form and this is connected to me green trace. I have found a frequency where the input current does not go up much but the output of each trace goes massive, as soon as this happens my scope/laptop crashes out, i reach this point by varying the phase delay between the driven coils, it's as if the whole thing goes into some sort of oscillation. Either there's something strange going on with the equipment or there's over a 500V on the green trace which is 90 degree coupled to the endless coil. The scope shot is whats left on the screen when the laptop stops responding. ------------------------ Large Toroidal Coil CoilLT.jpg (81.46 kB, 800x600 - viewed 1067 times.) Large Toroidal Coil ScopeLT.jpg (125.66 kB, 800x600 - viewed 1287 times.) Large Toroidal Coil FreqGenLT.jpg (64.05 kB, 600x450 - viewed 935 times.)

poynt99	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #1 on: 2011-02-05, 12:58:32 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Good stuff Peter. Seems you've been able to reproduce something similar to what you had before .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #2 on: 2011-02-05, 13:00:53 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	OK managed to get a FFT shot at crash Is there any chance this could be radiating some distance ------------------------ Large Toroidal Coil FFTLT.jpg (82.35 kB, 800x600 - viewed 939 times.)

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #3 on: 2011-02-05, 13:02:15 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Hi Darren Yeah but the difference is that each phase driven coil is placed 180 Degrees around the toroid, and i am not drawing over 100mA for the drive power

poynt99	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #4 on: 2011-02-05, 13:14:57 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Sounds like you need to get some distance and/or shielding for your PC, and possibly the scope too. Then put a load on that puppy What's your supply voltage now? --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #5 on: 2011-02-05, 13:24:43 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	50V supply Yep will load it up next

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #6 on: 2011-02-05, 13:46:27 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	I have placed a 2 watt carbon 47 Ohm resistor across both monitored coils, and only momentarily captured a FFT, i have only been able to get it to go unstable once so far, either the frequency has changed slightly or the phase shift is much more critical or i have damaged something. Not sure right now. Is there anyway of guesstimating power dissipation from the FFT i have attached. ------------------------ Large Toroidal Coil FFTLT47OHMLOAD.jpg (86.6 kB, 800x600 - viewed 951 times.)

ion	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #7 on: 2011-02-05, 14:02:26 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Good work Peterae The shorted winding is where the DC might circulate (should you get an induced DC current and get it circulating) and is possibly how SM gets his heating effect. I believe he may have picked off the DC component at 180 degree points of this winding. "Induction" of this sort, and I use the word very loosely, is not possible with normal transformer action as the result is always a null DC component once the system settles. It is strange that you are getting such large output. The shorted adjacent bifilar wind should have clamped the output. Although your explanation of the winds is clear, it would be helpful if you could go back and annotate that original drawing with some text and arrows. I can see the horizontal outer winds. Are there any horizontal inner windings? Try a very light load on the open ends of the large winding to see if will tame it a bit, probably 20k to 100k although you might not want to tame it, rather lightly couple it to the input windings. That will soak up and regenerate some of the energy. As for the power dissipation in the 47 ohm, the temperature rise is a good rough indication of power and easy to compare to known heating from the same resistor hooked to your power supply. I would use a 1/4 watt if the heating is very small. Thanks for sharing your work. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #8 on: 2011-02-05, 14:06:36 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Quote It is strange that you are getting such large output. The shorted adjacent bifilar wind should have clamped the output. Although your explanation of the winds is clear, it would be helpful if you could go back and annotate that original drawing with some text and arrows. I can see the horizontal outer winds. Are there any horizontal inner windings? Interestingly the yellow trace in across the other bifilar winding thats shorted to form the endless coil and it show huge DC Pulses. I will draw up a diagram of whats goes where with direction. There is only the outside horizontal winding. PS i have backed up a step and taken the resistors off and still cannot get it to perform, maybe some damage to the fet stage.

ion	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #9 on: 2011-02-05, 14:14:49 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Peterae If you get a chance try to document what you have done with a simple schematic. This can convey an awful lot of information if properly annotated. Then some of us can try to replicate. If you saw huge DC pulses you may be on to something very important. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #10 on: 2011-02-05, 14:26:11 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	If you go up above and check out the yellow trace, you will see the scope switched to DC coupling and that the yellow trace is 0v to off the screen. at least 300V pulses.

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #11 on: 2011-02-05, 15:15:59 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	There is really very little special about the setup. I first made a toroid by laminating lengths of artists mount board(Card) around a paint pot using plastic packing tape to tape each piece onto the perimeter, i kept adding pieces to get the 1 inch thickness of the wall, the final measurements were OD = 8 Inches height = 4 Inches and wall thickness 1 Inch. The whole thing was wrapped in packaging tape(Could be a Dielectric layer i guess also). I then took 1mm single core flat twin wire and wound about 110 turns 360 degree's around the toroid and connected 1 coil end to end, and left the other open for scope connection(Chan 2 Yellow Trace) I then wound 2 coils 180 degree's apart each side of the toroid about 20 turns each and used these 2 as my drive coils, a diode UF4007 was placed across each coil and the 50V positive supply was connected to both coils, the other end of each coil/diode was connected to a fet stage to be switched to ground. For coil winding direction see diagram attached. Around the periphery i wound 4 loops of 1mm flat twin bell wire and shorted each end to form a 2 strand single coil.(Connected to Chan 1 Green Trace). The 2 Drive coils could be phase delayed from 0nS to 1350nS most of the burst appeared about 480nS @ 683KHz although other phase delays did also cause the oscillation to appear. ------------------------ Large Toroidal Coil CoilLT2.jpg (87.73 kB, 800x600 - viewed 1516 times.) Large Toroidal Coil LTSCHEM1.jpg (99.49 kB, 1340x788 - viewed 728 times.)

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #12 on: 2011-02-05, 15:45:47 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Just to confirm incase i made a mistake, the endless coil is definatley endless, in other words i have connected the correct ends together , the resistance of the wire is 1.5 Ohms in the one thats monitored and not shorted.

Grumpy	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #13 on: 2011-02-05, 15:53:58 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	If you are touching on another form of induction, then adding an independent force in the direction of the output winding will increase the drift velocity and the current. Rotation is one way to do this. Another is to use thousands of vertical wires, soldered and connected at the top and bottom so that the current flows downward. Then gravity would help you out. Try a small bulb on the output and vary the rates to see what happens.

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #14 on: 2011-02-05, 16:08:55 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	OK it would appear when i loaded the horizontal and other endless coil with 47 Ohm resistors when the event occurred it has knocked out 1 channel of the controller fet stage. I Will try for a rebuild tomorrow. Also although the laptop is running from a battery i think it's probably the usb noise from the Scope that's knocking it out, i have not really seen this much before, in previous phase experiments with other coils it was the controller that was crashing.

ltseung888	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #15 on: 2011-02-05, 16:32:18 »
Group: Guest	Large Air core Toroid We experimented with large air core toroids in July 2010 as seen in reply 456 of: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8825.msg248749#msg248749 It can be a very promising area of research. Dr. Raymond Ting focused his effort and attention on such devices. I believe that he is working with a group in China first recommended by Rasa. That China Group has funding and has access to two Universities. Dr. Raymond Ting is a member of the Hong Kong Invention Association and a verifier of new inventions for the Chinese Government. Continue the great work. I believe it is a matter of resonance hunting again. Until we nailed it down to a solid science, the experiments will be a sort of hit and miss. Have your camera ready at all times. Capture the strange things when they occur. It is not always possible to reproduce the same conditions. Good luck and have fun, Lawrence

ion	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #16 on: 2011-02-05, 16:48:03 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Peterae, here is what I understand from your description in schematic form. I will update or correct it per your instructions. ------------------------ Large Toroidal Coil Peterae Circuit.jpg (39.27 kB, 702x357 - viewed 676 times.) --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #17 on: 2011-02-05, 16:59:12 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	ION thankyou for the schematic. You are correct although you show L3 and L4 as separate coils they are laid down side by side bifilar fashion. and the same for L5 & L6 L5 & L6 also had a 47 Ohm across them when it blew a fet stage. I only managed to capture one FFT Shot with the 47 Ohm Resistors connected all previous shots and waveforms were without any resistor loading.

giantkiller	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #18 on: 2011-02-05, 17:03:21 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1593 Frequency equals matter...	Protect your usb scope. I toasted mine with the same type of results. --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #19 on: 2011-02-05, 17:29:56 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Something else i always have to remind myself is the fact the scope probe earths are connected together at the scope end so in this case i also had one end of L4 connected together with one end of L5/L6. It's a shame you cannot draw the endless coil L3/L4 as a 360 degree coil because L1 and L2 are coupled to part of L3/L4 and then it would be possible to associate the coil's connected polarity. A note of how i found what happened.It was a bit of a fluke really LOL I wound the drive frequency up until the pulse ringing joined the start of the next pulse, then tried varying the phase, i was getting small low volts induction on the output coils, and then all of a sudden when a certain phase was hit the amplitude went 10 fold and the input current went only just slightly higher, at this point the Laptop would crash out. Thanks GK yeah this has always been a worry experimenting like this.

ion	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #20 on: 2011-02-05, 18:02:28 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	For rough testing at the beginning and when large transients are expected, it's hard to kill an old tube scope from Tektronix. Otherwise just use "sniffer" coils on your scope input and no direct connection to your DUT. Hard to watch that sensitive equipment...computers, USB scopes, and even bench type solid state scopes get destroyed. Sometimes its difficult to make a schematic conform to actual layout. I'll see if there is another way to draw the schematic. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #21 on: 2011-02-05, 20:08:07 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Thanks ION I will try to do a hand sketch tomorrow which will try to show it diagrammatically. I am now wondering if i should fire up the dual channel Whitenoise generator, if it's a matter of correct frequency and phase i should see a big pulse on the output once in a while.

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #22 on: 2011-02-05, 20:30:38 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	The thing i cannot get my head around is that coil 1 fires pulses clockwise around the endless coil and drive coil 2 fires pulses anti clockwise so how can i have DC pulses running through the endless coil. And how can i have such high voltage and the horizontal coil.

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #23 on: 2011-02-06, 10:45:39 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	OK something else i noticed i had done when i placed 47Ohm resistors across the closed bifilar's other winding was i put the scope earth lead on the opposite end,I am guessing this has either caused the fet failure or altered the effect enough to blow a fet stage. Thankfully i took photo's in the early stages for reference.

Peterae	Re: Large Toroidal Coil « Reply #24 on: 2011-02-06, 12:28:13 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	I have now fixed the faulty fet stage, so far tried setting the controller up as before and cannot get the effect to occur I will keep trying, i have tried to layout the wires in the same positions just in case.

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