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fisal	what is electrical current ? « on: 2011-01-30, 06:20:01 »
Group: Guest	i was reading on this web page http://amasci.com/elect/elefaq1.html#ak ,most of his stuff make real sense ,but still i am not sure what is electrical current ?when we move the magnet over a coil , a voltage and current will be generated . how the current generated ?? what actually happens in the coper coils ?

humbugger	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #1 on: 2011-01-30, 07:11:54 »
Group: Guest	Electrons are the outermost parts of atoms. Valence electrons are the ones in orbit the farthest from the center, and will always randomly drift around in a conductor hopping from one atom to other nearby atoms. It is this property that determines how well a material conducts electricity. The more freely and easily this motion occurs is what determines the material's conductivity. When a potential (voltage...also known as EMF/electromotive force) is applied across a conductor, the electrons themselves tend to take on a drift or migration more in one direction than any other, although their motion is still mostly random. An electric field is the cause of this chain reaction which travels at nearly light speed, so the reaction appears to be instantaneous and is called current flow. Surprisingly, though, individual electrons don't fly down the wire at light speed. In fact, they still mostly drift almost randomly, only progressing down the wire at a very slow pace. There was recently a short discussion about this in a thread here: http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=580.msg9377#msg9377 The posts before and after this one and the links I gave on the linked post above, are a good starting point in understanding how electrons migrate in a conductor (from the negative end to the positive end) when a voltage is applied, versus how they randomly hop between atoms without any significant directional net travel when no voltage is applied.. An electric field is the cause and it's effect is current flow which whips down the wire almost at light speed. Hope this helps. Cheers! Humbugger « Last Edit: 2011-01-30, 07:42:09 by humbugger »

Chef	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #2 on: 2011-01-30, 15:31:30 »
Jr. Member Posts: 69	Quote from: fisal on 2011-01-30, 06:20:01 i was reading on this web page http://amasci.com/elect/elefaq1.html#ak ,most of his stuff make real sense ,but still i am not sure what is electrical current ?when we move the magnet over a coil , a voltage and current will be generated . how the current generated ?? what actually happens in the coper coils ? I am sure the well educated guys could tell you everything about the electric current, which written in all the books around the world, but don't forget until we understand how an atom, or atomic systems work,we still don't know everything. Maybe the CERN will shed some light with new discovery's. However I think I have a very good example for you, to show from another viewpoint, what electricity is. BS mode on. Take two exactly same circular coils, same size, same amount of wire, same inductance, resistance, capacitance,which are separated from each other some meter apart, and connected together by wires. Take two exactly same magnet hang on a rope over the coils in the same point, same plane, like a pendulum. Now if you move one magnet, on the other side the other magnet start to move too. Depending on the the speed of the magnet passing over the half area of the coil, you will experience more loss in the system, so not all the movement could be transferred from one place to another. In the speed which matching the resonant frequency of the coil there will be the less loss in the system. However still there. In a superconducting case, you could transfer all the motion from one place to another by the coils, without any loss, still no free energy. In a simple way, electricity is wave motion across the mass, which transfers the momentum, from one end of the mass to an another. All the charged capacitor you could imagine hold "momentum", which could be transferred to any place by conducting materials, and converted to any form of energy with the necessary components. So, don't forget, if you have 1 and you transfer even in a superconducting circuit, you will got 1 on the other side, in real life less than 1. There could be only one way to have free energy,and that would require some outside source of "free motion". Like the one, which give the existence our material world, and still allow the atomic parts to move when all the energy is removed from the system. BS mode off. « Last Edit: 2011-01-31, 03:02:54 by Chef » --------------------------- "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery

GibbsHelmholtz	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #3 on: 2011-01-30, 16:53:21 »
Group: Guest	Certain BS does smells good.

Grumpy	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #4 on: 2011-01-30, 19:34:44 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: Chef on 2011-01-30, 15:31:30 So, don't forget, if you have 1 and you transfer even in a superconducting circuit, you will got 1 on the other side, in real life less than 1. There could be only one way to have free energy,and that would be require some outside source of "free motion". Like the one, which give the existence our material world, and still allow the atomic parts to move when all the energy is removed from the system. Correct. Find a way to move the magnet that requires very little energy. Then the output is the same, but the input has been reduced, so you get the same current for less work.

wattsup	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #5 on: 2011-01-30, 21:54:50 »
Hero Member Posts: 520	Quote from: Grumpy on 2011-01-30, 19:34:44 Correct. Find a way to move the magnet that requires very little energy. Then the output is the same, but the input has been reduced, so you get the same current for less work. Not one magnet. That is useless. It has to be two magnets with one polarity each against your wire. Ever think why only one does almost buzz all when you run it near your coil compared to when you use the same energy with two? One only makes the atoms core turn one way towards the outer field so you only get half a swing of spin conveyance. With two magnets, a north followed by a south field, the atomic spin becomes complete and that spin is conveyed throughout your conductor to produce your "electricity., which is only spin convenyance. The faster you spin, the higher the voltage. The more atomic cores that spin, the more current you get. It is soooo simple but we like to complicate things. Just think of the wire as a solid collection of spinners, the first spins the next that spins the next (like a conveyor belt) and so on until you get to the end of the wire. What is only important is how much spin is available at the end of the wire that will connect to your next component that will receive the wires spin conveyance. At one end you have clockwise spin but that same direction seen from the other end is counterclockwise and hence your differentiation of polarity. Make them spin like you are in the tail of a tornado. The atomic core of copper atoms is like in a gyroscope that can follow or turn away from respective fields. Electrons do not travel or your copper would change its atomic makeup and become something else. Electricity has nothing to do with valence. But even the field of the magnet does not belong to the magnet so the story can go many levels deeper then we think. But they are all inter-related to ether because ether drives them all into existence and from there into inter-relations between themselves and other elements. wattsup --------------------------- http://etherimpress.com

Farrah Day	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #6 on: 2011-01-30, 22:11:13 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: wattsup on 2011-01-30, 21:54:50 Not one magnet. That is useless. It has to be two magnets with one polarity each against your wire. Ever think why only one does almost buzz all when you run it near your coil compared to when you use the same energy with two? One only makes the atoms core turn one way towards the outer field so you only get half a swing of spin conveyance. Has to be two magnets?? One does almost buzz.... what...?? Quote Electrons do not travel or your copper would change its atomic makeup and become something else. Electricity has nothing to do with valence. But even the field of the magnet does not belong to the magnet so the story can go many levels deeper then we think. But they are all inter-related to ether because ether drives them all into existence and from there into inter-relations between themselves and other elements. Electrons do not travel? But they have mass and have been shown to travel. If not electrons, what is emitting from the cathode of a CRT then? Wherever are you getting this stuff from? What qualifies you to say such things like electrons do not travel?

wattsup	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #7 on: 2011-01-30, 23:08:07 »
Hero Member Posts: 520	@FD When you get off you high horse, let me know and we can talk. Just re-read what you just wrote and try to find the misnomers. Hint: electrons have mass? or not. So what speed do they travel at? Then consider one small atom in space flying into the Earths atmosphere. What will happen even at a small fraction of the speeds you will be talking about for electricity travel? Then, what would happen to your copper wire if it harbored "mass" at those speeds? Try to think beyond what you are told is real and you may just find reality. Or at best, you will learn to think for yourself. Last question. What qualifications do you have to say electrons do travel? lol wattsup PS: "Buzz all" is an expression meaning "nothing" or "next to nothing". One polarity against a wire does nothing. Then take two magnets with north and south facing on one end with a separator between them and pass that magnet group near your coil. You will soon understand what I just said. --------------------------- http://etherimpress.com

wattsup	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #8 on: 2011-01-30, 23:15:27 »
Hero Member Posts: 520	Just to continue on this one magnet against a wire thing. This is relative to SM's TPUs. When he took his big magnet and moved it near the two central toroids, it was not intended to be used as a means to energize his coils. He only used it to FEEL the thumping action of those toroids and around the LTPU rings. He used it like a doctor would use a stethoscope to listen to your heart. It was his way on ensuring that everything was working normally. If he puts a magnet near his TPU or onto his TPU, it was only to make sure the TPU was working by feeling the "vibration". Otherwise he had no other way of knowing if the device was working or not to continue his demo. One non-moving magnet on the TPU will do NOTHING or in my lingo Buzz All. --------------------------- http://etherimpress.com

Chef	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #9 on: 2011-01-31, 00:41:32 »
Jr. Member Posts: 69	Wattsup: I remind you that not the TPU topic, so please ask a moderator to move your post, where it should be. --------------------------- "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Grumpy	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #10 on: 2011-01-31, 02:15:22 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Before today, I thought I was the only person that understood to look for a method of creating a current that requires less work to move the electrons. It looks like Chef sees this too. Everyone else looks for another source of energy.

ion	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #11 on: 2011-01-31, 03:06:55 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	I'm with you Grumps and maybe we should consider this: Theory: 1. rules and techniques: the body of rules, ideas, principles, and techniques that applies to a subject, especially when seen as distinct from actual practice 2. speculation: abstract thought or contemplation 3. idea formed by speculation: an idea of or belief about something arrived at through speculation or conjecture Hypothesis: 1. theory needing investigation: a tentative explanation for a phenomenon, used as a basis for further investigation 2. assumption: a statement that is assumed to be true for the sake of argument 3. antecedent clause: in logic, the antecedent of a conditional statement Conjecture: 1. guesswork: the formation of judgments or opinions on the basis of incomplete or inconclusive information 2. something guessed: a conclusion, judgment, or statement based on incomplete or inconclusive information 3. unproved theorem: a theorem in science or mathematics that has still to be proved Speculation: 1. opinion based on incomplete information: a conclusion, theory, or opinion based on incomplete facts or information 2. reasoning based on incomplete information: reasoning based on incomplete facts or information 3. risky transaction: a financial transaction that involves risk, but is potentially profitable Assumption: 1. something taken for granted: something that is believed to be true without proof 2. belief without proof: the belief that something is true without having any proof 3. act of undertaking something: the act of taking something upon yourself And in the end it is experiment that finds the truth ------------------------ what is electrical current ? Feynman.jpg (14.58 kB, 411x208 - viewed 921 times.) --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

humbugger	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #12 on: 2011-01-31, 03:49:24 »
Group: Guest	ION, Feynman is correct, of course. The problem, as you well know, is that conclusions based on experiment often assume that the experiment and measured results are well-designed and properly carried out. In modern conventional science and physics, huge effort is expended on designing and performing accurate experiments before any conclusions are drawn. I would estimate that 20% of physics efforts are in the area of developing theories while 80% is involved with carefully designing experiments, the required special equipment and often inventing new ways of making super-accurate measurements. Extensive peer review and criticism is employed all the way through to find any possible fault with the experiments and the measurement methodology. In "alternate science" not so much. Folks get all uptight if anyone challenges their experimental approach or meaurement methods. Conjecture, belief and emotion nearly always lead to "observations of excess energy production" that turn out under actual scrutiny, to be nothing more than normal, explainable phenomena. The reason I like this forum, as opposed to the others, is because there are people here, including yourself, who have the knowledge to propose valid experiments, to calmly accept and ponder criticisms and alternative suggestions, to argue the fine points without getting hysterical or emotional and to carry the evolved experiments out with correspondingly sound measurement practices. There just isn't much of that going on in most "Free Energy" circles. Humbugger

Grumpy	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #13 on: 2011-01-31, 04:04:31 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: ION on 2011-01-31, 03:06:55 I'm with you Grumps and maybe we should consider this: Theory: 1. rules and techniques: the body of rules, ideas, principles, and techniques that applies to a subject, especially when seen as distinct from actual practice Hypothesis: 1. theory needing investigation: a tentative explanation for a phenomenon, used as a basis for further investigation And in the end it is experiment that finds the truth Let's start with a fairly simple experiment. You wind up a large coil of wire, say 1000 feet long or more. Like a whole spool. You apply a HV (2kv or more) DC Pulse to this coil at a rate of say 30kHz or 100kHz - whatever is easy to do. You will find that a very strong field is developed around this coil. It seems to be electrostatic but stronger than if the coil was powered with HV DC. If you bring a magnet near the coil, the magnet will move violently. If you bring a slenoid near this coil with DC applied to the solenoid, then the magnetic field gets stronger. It appears that this pulsed HV coil produces and effect that make a magnetic field stronger. Does this occur with less energy than if I had just applied more current to the solenoid? That is what we want to explore, and what we want to know.

MileHigh	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #14 on: 2011-01-31, 04:57:55 »
Group: Guest	Grumpy: Something for you to contemplate about your experiment with the big coil and the high voltage pulses. The coil will integrate the voltage excitation from the pulses and the output from the integration process is current flowing through the coil and the associated magnetic field around the coil: i(t) = 1/L Integral [from t = 0 to t = T] v(t) dt, where v(t) is a sequence of voltage pulses of a certain voltage and a certain time length and a certain frequency. So the question is how does this property of the coil relate back to your experiment? MileHigh

Grumpy	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #15 on: 2011-01-31, 05:04:55 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	How do you show that the energy applied to the 2nd coil from the first coil plus the energy supplied to the 2nd coil from the power supply, is less than the magnetic field produced by the second coil? I.E. how can you show that you have more than you applied? It's not so easy. This is why amateurs make so many assumptions. It becomes very expensive and time consuming to prove everything, and to what end? Peer review is brutal.

ion	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #16 on: 2011-01-31, 14:22:43 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Since Faraday's discovery of induction principles, that horse ran very quickly out of the gate and is now the basis of all forms of conversion of mechanical energy into electrical energy. What has possibly been left behind are alternative means of "induction", i.e. how can we coerce current to flow in a wire without the use of a changing magnetic field. Is this even possible?. While we have fine tuned the laws of Faraday induction to the nth degree, do we really understand the exact mechanism at play? I personally think this is a most important area for discussion and experiment. We started this a while back, but it got derailed and buried. A simple experiment would be needed. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Grumpy	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #17 on: 2011-01-31, 15:08:00 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Absolutely!

darkspeed	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #18 on: 2011-01-31, 15:32:17 »
Group: Guest	Is everyone sure that the magnetic field is actually caused by the electrons moving from point A to point B? I gave up on measuring the magnetic field and had started to measure force directly. I built a simple rig where one side accepted a coil in a fixed position and the other side had a coil mounted to a force meter with a data line out for the pc. When the two coils repelled it was seen as a spike on the data logger. The force data did not always match the data from the Gauss Meter.

Grumpy	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #19 on: 2011-01-31, 16:30:48 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	At this point, the only thing that I am sure of, is that our micro model of things lacks detail and is incomplete. There are several articles around that argue that a moving magnetic field is not the cause of induction and that it is the electric field produced by the moving magnetic field that causes induction. I believe there is an easier way to move the electrons and create electric current that requires less work, and thus would appear to run with gain compared to conventional methods. It's not OU, just a different way of doing things that is not included in the old model. Same result as OU though.

Chet K	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #20 on: 2011-01-31, 16:38:48 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	ION Quote: I personally think this is a most important area for discussion and experiment. We started this a while back, but it got derailed and buried. A simple experiment would be needed. -------------------- Sounds like a very good idea ![simple experiment]. Can you elaborate? Thanks , Chet

darkspeed	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #21 on: 2011-01-31, 16:43:51 »
Group: Guest	Efficiency comes out of order rather than chaos. Vibrating electrons back and forth seems like chaos to me. Getting them all moving in the same direction feels a lot more like order. Moving them in one direction around a ring sounds even better. What did sm say.. getting them up to speed took energy keeping them at speed took a lot less. Maybe that is one way to do it My guess is it will be found in DC and not AC

Grumpy	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #22 on: 2011-01-31, 17:10:28 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Electrons drifting along in a conductor is a secondary effect, a byproduct. I posted some articles a while back by "Edwards" where he showed through experiments that displacement current actually drags the electrons along until a conduction current is established. The immediate question is what is causing the displacement current, and can this be utilized in a different way? I have some other articles that argue the energy in an electrical circuit can not be from the electrons in motion.

Farrah Day	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #23 on: 2011-01-31, 17:52:58 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: wattsup on 2011-01-30, 23:08:07 @FD When you get off you high horse, let me know and we can talk. Just re-read what you just wrote and try to find the misnomers. Hint: electrons have mass? or not. So what speed do they travel at? Then consider one small atom in space flying into the Earths atmosphere. What will happen even at a small fraction of the speeds you will be talking about for electricity travel? Then, what would happen to your copper wire if it harbored "mass" at those speeds? Try to think beyond what you are told is real and you may just find reality. Or at best, you will learn to think for yourself. Last question. What qualifications do you have to say electrons do travel? lol wattsup PS: "Buzz all" is an expression meaning "nothing" or "next to nothing". One polarity against a wire does nothing. Then take two magnets with north and south facing on one end with a separator between them and pass that magnet group near your coil. You will soon understand what I just said. Absolute, utter madness! It's been quite a long time since I've read so much drivel - and never before on this forum. I don't think that we'll be doing much talking unless you come out of fantasy land and get something close to a decent education. Why do people like you seem so ready to sweep known science under the carpet and make up your own versions of it... as if you are privvy to something that scientists and great minds are not? Not everything is some great conspiracy! Electrons do have mass. SCIENCE FACT! Electrons do not travel at or near the speed of light through copper or anything else in terms of current flowing. Drift velocity is relatively very slow - in the order of just a few inches per minute. You really should know all this. Anyway, I'm not going to start a flame war so I'll leave you to your delusions.

ion	Re: what is electrical current ? « Reply #24 on: 2011-01-31, 18:48:27 »
Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: ramset on 2011-01-31, 16:38:48 ION Quote: I personally think this is a most important area for discussion and experiment. We started this a while back, but it got derailed and buried. A simple experiment would be needed. -------------------- Sounds like a very good idea ![simple experiment]. Can you elaborate? Thanks , Chet Chet: There are huge gaping holes in my knowledge and education. Since I cannot fully understand some of the stuff others seem to easily grasp, I am left with no resort but to try experiments based on an intuitive approach. I've read a lot of what is posted and other physics and electrical writings. It's all stored somewhere in my biocomputer, but most of the dots that need to be connected are out of my conscious view. Times like this, I must rely on the output of my biocomputer's intuition circuit to display a "flash" to my conscious mind. Then I can follow that hunch and see where it leads. Actually this is what a lot of early scientists and some present day ones do anyway. A good foundation in electrical theory can be helpful to prevent travellng down roads that go nowhere, but this is not absolutely necessary. No experiment is unworthy of trial, as long as the results are properly measured. shared and subject to peer review. So experiment and carefully keep notes so that you can replicate. Anyone can stumble onto something new. I've got a few hunches, but no "eureka" flash of insight. Hope that answers your question in not too longwinded a fashion. LOL --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

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