Looping The Blocking Oscillator

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Author Topic: Looping The Blocking Oscillator (Read 2804 times)

ion	Looping The Blocking Oscillator « on: 2011-01-20, 16:14:50 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Here is an extremely simple and elegant means to loop the flyback energy of a blocking oscillator and use it to "spike" transient energy into the battery. This technique is not limited to blocking oscillators, but can also be extended to Bedini systems, eliminating the need for battery swapping entirely. The simple introduction of an inductor L2 between the battery and the blocking oscillator allows the flyback transient current to be absorbed directly by the battery, before the current can build in L2 and conduct into the C1 bypass capacitor. L2 is sized such that the battery absorbs the spike rather than the capacitor C1, i.e. during the width of the transient, L2 appears as an open circuit, allowing the battery to absorb the full impact of the flyback current. This is a very well known decoupling technique utilizing the inductive reactance of L2, in which L2 appears as a very high impedance for the duration of the transient. For best efficiency make L2 an inductor with a high current capacity i.e. low DC resistance and sufficient inductance such that it does not saturate for the duration of the pulse. Anyone that suspects they have a blocking oscillator or Bedini device with OU can easily and quickly test it with this method. Use a very low ampere-hour battery such that the circuit can run to either extreme rapidly. Note also that you can replace the battery with a capacitor and use a current source feed into the capacitor from a power supply with a current limit feature. You will know you are getting close to a high efficiency and possible overunity condition when you use less and less and finally zero input current to keep the circuit oscillating while you make circuit tweaks to optimize COP. ------------------------ Looping The Blocking Oscillator BO4 Test.jpg (37.07 kB, 485x374 - viewed 891 times.) « Last Edit: 2011-01-21, 01:59:28 by ION » --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

ion	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #1 on: 2011-01-20, 16:25:56 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Here is essentially the same circuit with the addition of metering so you can watch input and output parameters while tweaking the circuit. ------------------------ Looping The Blocking Oscillator BO7 Test.jpg (53.28 kB, 512x525 - viewed 828 times.) --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

ion	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #2 on: 2011-01-20, 16:34:26 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	For those suspicious of adding a separate inductor, you can add an extra winding to the core and recycle the flyback energy using the method in the schematic below. No real need for power measurements, if it self runs, you've hit the jackpot. If not, you can begin tweaking the circuit. Make sure the phasing of L3 is correct so that flyback current pulses recharge C1, not the forward pulse, as this is where the claimed increase is. By making C1 a small electrolytic the decay time is easily measured. In this way you will know if you are getting close to OU if the decay time after momentary switch closure starts getting longer as you tweak the circuit parameters. It's a real time test setup I have used with success in tweaking blocking oscillators. ------------------------ Looping The Blocking Oscillator BO8 Test.jpg (40.09 kB, 475x381 - viewed 797 times.) « Last Edit: 2011-01-20, 21:28:17 by ION » --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

muDped	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #3 on: 2011-01-20, 21:09:41 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3055	Each of your circuits are nicely done Ion! Experimenters will find the "tweaking" of your circuit very beneficial towards gaining a better understanding of improving switching efficiency. While it may take some doing to approach any OU possibility there is a very distinct benefit for those who may choose to power your circuit with a lead acid cell or battery. The cell will be rejuvenated/desulfated/conditioned as it powers the circuit. It will need periodic "charging" to top it off from time to time until the OU threshold is found. --------------------------- For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.

ion	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #4 on: 2011-01-20, 21:21:38 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Thanks, dumped I'm glad someone took the time to read those posts, as they represent a lot of bench testing and research. I will be posting some efficiency figures for the blocking oscillator as touted by Tseung. So far the results do not show anything near overunity, more like 40 to 50 % --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

poynt99	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #5 on: 2011-01-23, 20:55:02 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	ION, A very novel and simple idea. Nice work! What value inductance and capacitance would you recommend starting at for the input LC filter? .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Chet K	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #6 on: 2011-01-24, 13:42:21 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	ION Thank you for taking the time to experimant and sharing your findings, My comprehension skills are fairly good,It seems to me that you feel this settup will bring in excess energy? Am I understanding this wrong? Thank you Chet Also Stefan did some research, Here, Re: Joule Ringer! « Reply #179 on: Today at 01:29:27 PM »I studied some more the basics of capacitors and what we probably have here with the Joule Ringer is, that the short discharge pulses are just recharged by dielectric absorption: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption Dielectric absorption is the name given to the effect by which a capacitor that has been charged for a long time discharges only incompletely when briefly discharged. Although an ideal capacitor would remain at zero volts after being discharged, real capacitors will develop a small voltage, a phenomenon that is also called soakage or battery action. For some dielectrics, such as many polymer films, the resulting voltage may be less than 1-2% of the original voltage, but it can be as much as 15 - 25% for electrolytic capacitors or supercapacitors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_capacitor#Dielectric_absorption_.28soakage.29 Some types of dielectrics, when they have been holding a voltage for a long time, maintain a "memory" of that voltage: after they have been quickly fully discharged and left without an applied voltage, a voltage will gradually be established which is some fraction of the original voltage. For some dielectrics 10% or more of the original voltage may reappear. This phenomenon of unwanted charge storage is called dielectric absorption or soakage, and it effectively creates a hysteresis or memory effect in capacitors. The percentage of the original voltage restored depends upon the dielectric and is a non-linear function of original voltage.[2] In many applications of capacitors dielectric absorption is not a problem but in some applications, such as long-time-constant integrators, sample-and-hold circuits, switched-capacitor analog-to-digital converters, and very low-distortion filters, it is important that the capacitor does not recover a residual charge after full discharge, and capacitors with low absorption are specified[3]. For safety, high-voltage capacitors are often stored with their terminals short circuited. Some dielectrics have very low dielectric absorption, e.g., polystyrene, polypropylene, NPO ceramic, and Teflon. Others, in particular those used in electrolytic and supercapacitors, tend to have high absorption. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kondensator_%28Elektrotechnik%29#Temperaturabh.C3.A4ngigkeit Kondensatortyp Dielektrische Absorption Kunststoff-Folienkondensatoren, Polyesterdielektrikum 0,2 bis 0,25 % Kunststoff-Folienkondensatoren, Polypropylendielektrikum 0,01 bis 0,05 % Keramikkondensatoren, X7R 0,6 bis 1 % Keramikkondensatoren, Z5U 2,0 bis 2,5 % Aluminium-Elektrolytkondensatoren etwa 10 bis 15 % So alufoil electrolyte caps can have an automatic recharge rate of 15 % due to dielectric absorption ! So it really depends also on what kind of electrolyte capacitor you are using for the Joule Ringer circuit. It must be a cap that has a high dielectric absorption !

poynt99	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #7 on: 2011-01-24, 14:31:08 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3217 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Chet, Although you addressed ION, I'm sure he won't mind if I respond to your question. I'm certain that ION does not feel that this setup alone and in particular, will bring in excess energy to the source battery. The intention is to route the stored energy back to the source battery, rather than having it burn off by recirculating in the coil and flyback diode. As an alternative to ION's depiction for example, the flyback pulse could be routed to a second battery for charging, or to a separate load. .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

MileHigh	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #8 on: 2011-01-24, 14:44:57 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: ramset on 2011-01-24, 13:42:21 It must be a cap that has a high dielectric absorption ! Chet: You are misunderstanding this. The Joule Ringer is simply a version of a Joule Thief where more or less by chance LaserSaber found a configuration where small output pulses of minimum energy can keep a stripped-down CFL lit. In all Joule Ringers the capacitor eventually looses it's charge and the CFL goes out. It's just a fun challenge to see how slowly you can get the capacitor to discharge while keeping the CFL lit. In my "Beyond the Joule Thief" thread I make reference to this. In theory you could experiment and find the right initial pulse current, the right amount of energy per pulse, and the right pulsing frequency to keep a stripped-down CFL lit at a certain perceived brightness with a minimum expenditure of power from the power supply, or in the Joule Ringer case, from a charged capacitor. One of the key issues is probably to keep your pulse rate high enough to keep the plasma "lit" so you don't have to reignite it every time you do a pulse. This has nothing to do with dielectric absorption. All that means is that some of the energy that you put into charging a capacitor can "leak" into the dielectric itself. Then when the capacitor is discharged it "leaks out." It's just a phenomenon associated with certain types of capacitors. It's akin to moisture going into wood or coming out of wood depending on the ambient humidity. MileHigh « Last Edit: 2011-01-24, 15:19:10 by MileHigh »

ion	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #9 on: 2011-01-24, 16:56:08 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: ramset on 2011-01-24, 13:42:21 ION Thank you for taking the time to experimant and sharing your findings, My comprehension skills are fairly good,It seems to me that you feel this settup will bring in excess energy? Am I understanding this wrong? Thank you Chet Chet: Referring to the first elementary schematic in this thread, What I have offered is a low loss method of looping flyback energy back into the source battery in a JT or BO by using a separate inductor as an isolating component for the flyback pulse. POYNT has also explained how most experimenters route the energy to a second battery, then play the battery swap game or tedious measurement method, which can be misleading. I in no way am saying the method develops OU, it is merely the simplest method I can come up with for recycling flyback energy to the source battery. If a device has OU merit, it will quickly show with this test. When first hooking this circuit up to a single AA cell, the voltage will first appear to rise very slightly, just a few millivolts. Many unseasoned researchers will attribute this to an OU effect when actually it is due to the slight self heating of the battery increasing the chemical reaction. If you wait a little while longer the battery voltage will decrease as expected. Few report this part of the test. This circuit can also be readily applied to Bedini machines, dispelling quickly any OU claims and forever throwing out the battery swap diversion. The circuit is an excellent pulse battery desulphator, similar in some respects to other two wire self powered battery desulphators commercially available. such as this : http://sterling-power.com/products-battref.htm Read their excellent writeup on battery sulphation and you will understand why so many Bedini enthusiasts are totally misinterpreting what is occurring with their batteries. Thank you for your interest in my work. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Chet K	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #10 on: 2011-01-24, 17:00:20 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	Tank you gentlemen, @MH, That quote you highlighted as "Ramset" Was Stefan's Quote! Chet is clueless in these matters And Until somebdy does a real honest to God loopty loop Running much more than A CFL ...................., Like a "TOASTER" on a tripleA Or a refridgerator on a watch battery [Tito says he can]. I know your stance{MH} will remain unchanged ,because up to this point You make sence! Thank you Gents Chet PS I see ION you posted as I was still Plunking away, Thank you I have the highest respect for you men!!

ion	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #11 on: 2011-01-24, 17:33:31 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Quote from: poynt99 on 2011-01-23, 20:55:02 ION, A very novel and simple idea. Nice work! What value inductance and capacitance would you recommend starting at for the input LC filter? .99 Thanks for looking this over POYNT What I have offered is an elementary schematic. While I have tested it on the bench, each blocking oscillator will run at a different frequency and have a differing energy component to the pulse depending on the applied voltage and working duty cycle, therefore I have not shown values for the inductor L2 or the capacitor C1. They should be sized according to the application, allowing the pulse to be blocked well before L2 can conduct appreciable cutrrent. C1 can be sized to minimize ripple on the BO supply. I intend to post a typical design with all values. It is more important at this stage for others to understand the concept. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #12 on: 2011-01-26, 18:28:41 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Quote Make sure the phasing of L3 is correct so that flyback current pulses recharge C1, not the forward pulse, as this is where the claimed increase is. I love the circuit ION, i would enjoy building this, how do you make sure the phasing of L3 is correct, i will use a toroidal core for all 3 L's Is there a rough turns ratio for L1:L2:L3 to get me started or maybe an inductance value for each to aim at instead of using trial and error. Can anyone remember a circuit by i think Zultan, i ordered this core for his circuit but never got any further and now i have the core but cannot remember it's type code EDIT ok found the Zultan circuit it's a 3E5 Core

ion	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #13 on: 2011-01-27, 01:17:36 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	I have bench tested several varieties of each of the circuits posted and they all work very well and recycle the flyback energy efficiently. In the first and second drawings (BO4, BO7), L2 is not wound on the same core as L1, it is a separate inductor with approximately the same inductance as L1. In the third drawing (BO8), L1 and L2 are opposite phase so that the circuit oscillates properly. L3 Should be phased so that the diode conducts on the flyback pulse. I will have to double check as I twisted each set of the wires so I will have to take it apart and untwist to double check phasing. But no problem, if you get it backwards, the diode will conduct on the forward pulse and you can just reverse the winding. Use components similar to the JT currently being discussed (the LT version). It is not the most efficient, but will work fine. The generic circuits are scaleable so use what you have on hand. My measurements show that about 50% of the input energy is recycled to the battery. The rest is diode, copper and switch loss. Of course all this depends on operating voltage. At 10 volts, the maximum efficiency I could squeeze out of a simple JT similar to the one under discussion was a little over 80%. I tried just about every resonance mode I could find, but the predominant frequency when the phasing is correct was the most efficient. This does not mean that any of the units are self runners, I have merely offered a means of recycling flyback energy efficiently. I had a lot of fun playing with these circuits over the last couple of weeks, and hope you find them interesting. --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

Peterae	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #14 on: 2011-01-27, 06:51:11 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3960	Thanks ION i understand what you mean about phasing now I will give it a go.

ion	Re: Looping The Blocking Oscillator « Reply #15 on: 2012-10-13, 19:17:08 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3537 It's turtles all the way down	Here is a circuit in response to some of Janost's work. This is not a blocking oscillator, rather it is a capacitor discharge SCR oscillator, but is a looped circuit. I make no claims of a self runner, but the circuit can be used to experiment along those lines e.g. exotic core or dielectric materials might be used for the inductors or capacitors. Note that an automotive lamp is used as a protection device should you get into a latchup condition by overdriving Q1 SCR. R1 adjusts the firing rate of Q1 The recycle SCR Q2 can be triggered at any voltage above the DIAC firing plus battery voltage by adding a voltage divider to the PRR adjustment R4. Commercial DIACS such as used in light dimmers fire at 28 to 32 volts. I forgot to add a switch between the battery. It is important to disconnect / reconnect the circuit should latchup of Q1 occur. Best to keep R1 at minimum and slowly increase until the circuit breaks into oscillation. Some values are subject to experimentation based on your desired frequency of operation. ------------------------ Looping The Blocking Oscillator Alt Looping.jpg (31.55 kB, 689x269 - viewed 744 times.) « Last Edit: 2012-10-13, 19:53:55 by ION » --------------------------- "Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

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