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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > High Voltage (HV) Phenomena > Ionic Wind
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Ionic Wind « on: 2010-12-20, 15:39:44 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
From Wikipedia:

Quote
Ion wind, ionic wind, or coronal wind is a stream of ionized fluid generated by a strong electric field. Francis Hauksbee, curator of instruments for the Royal Society of London, made the earliest report of electric wind in 1709.[1] Myron Robinson completed an extensive bibliography and literature review during the 1950's resurgence of interest in the phenomena.[2]

Electric charges on conductors reside entirely on their external surface (see Faraday cage), and tend to concentrate more around sharp points and edges than on flat surfaces. This means that the electric field generated by charges on a sharp conductive point is much stronger than the field generated by the same charge residing on a large smooth spherical conductive shell. When this electric field strength exceeds what is known as the corona discharge inception voltage (CIV) gradient, it ionizes the air about the tip, and a small faint purple jet of plasma can be seen in the dark on the conductive tip. Ionization of the nearby air molecules result in generation of ionized air molecules having the same polarity as that of the charged tip. Subsequently, the tip repels the like-charged ion cloud, and the ion cloud immediately expands due to the repulsion between the ions themselves. This repulsion of ions creates an electric "wind" that emanates from the tip, which is usually accompanied by a hissing noise due to the change in air pressure at the tip.

Unlike the functionality of the Electrohydrodynamic (EHD) thruster, the net force generated by an ion wind device does not rely on the momentum transfer between the charged and the neutral air molecules, but only on the impulse that the charged ions gain during their repulsion from the tip. It is analogous to recoil of a gun when it fires a bullet.


Marco,

With reference to your question (now deleted) PAGD, or a moving plasma?

.99
« Last Edit: 2010-12-27, 16:22:38 by poynt99 »


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  Microcontroller
Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #1 on: 2010-12-20, 18:03:21 »
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That's not where i'm heading here.

This is just about a sharp tip that is connected to a high voltage source.
It will spew out ion wind and there will be a magnetic response in free space.
That alone say's alot about the orgin of the magnetic field but i leave it up to you to draw those conclusions.

Anyway this paticular ion wind setup generates the same magnetic field regardless of the polarity of the power supply.
Simpel said this means the magnetic field is always the same no matter what you put in.
If you put in DC and switch polarity the magnetic field stays the same.
If you put in high frequency AC the magnetic field stays the same.

 :)
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #2 on: 2010-12-20, 18:19:53 »
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Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010-12-20, 18:03:21
That's not where i'm heading here.

This is just about a sharp tip that is connected to a high voltage source.
It will spew out ion wind and there will be a magnetic response in free space.
That alone say's alot about the orgin of the magnetic field but i leave it up to you to draw those conclusions.

Anyway this paticular ion wind setup generates the same magnetic field regardless of the polarity of the power supply.
Simpel said this means the magnetic field is always the same no matter what you put in.
If you put in DC and switch polarity the magnetic field stays the same.
If you put in high frequency AC the magnetic field stays the same.

 :)

An ion wind represents charge particles in motion, and a charge in motion is known to generate a magnetic field.

Well very interesting MrCo, when you say the magnetic field stays the same, I take it you mean the polarity as witnessed by a compass  or other magnetic sensing means never changes.

The high frequency AC is interesting, since the ion wind should be reversing direction at the AC frequency, which means the magnetic field should change polarity, but you are saying it does not.

I'll have to investigate this at my next earliest convenience. Thanks for the "tip"


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #3 on: 2010-12-20, 18:19:55 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
What happened to your PAGD work?

Incidentally, I'm not that far off with the plasma suggestion.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  Microcontroller
Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #4 on: 2010-12-20, 19:03:47 »
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Quote from: ION on 2010-12-20, 18:19:53

The high frequency AC is interesting, since the ion wind should be reversing direction at the AC frequency, which means the magnetic field should change polarity, but you are saying it does not.


Exactly.

And besides that, it is conductive another important note.

Quote from: poynt99 on 2010-12-20, 18:19:55
What happened to your PAGD work?

Incidentally, I'm not that far off with the plasma suggestion.

.99

Youre right on with the plasma suggestion.

PAGD it is here:
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #5 on: 2010-12-20, 19:44:20 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
As usual, excellent work.

Have you fired it up yet?

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #6 on: 2010-12-20, 20:05:42 »
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Look at the date on the picture what do you think.
I have done some tests under a high vacuum and this is not the only tube..i made more.

The vacuum needed forms a barrier for most researchers which is why i want to set this thing aside.
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #7 on: 2010-12-20, 20:23:13 »

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Quote from: ION on 2010-12-20, 18:19:53
The high frequency AC is interesting, since the ion wind should be reversing direction at the AC frequency, which means the magnetic field should change polarity, but you are saying it does not.

I'll have to investigate this at my next earliest convenience. Thanks for the "tip"

Yes, Ion wind should and will change direction with AC frequency, be it capacitive or induction discharge. If we use inductive discharge, it look very obvious, ion wind direction should change, because in theory DC current can't  flow from the secondary of a transformer all the time, as I know. We must note, in inductive discharge case, when the amplitude rising on the secondary, there is still a magnetic field in the primary, which will determine the direction of the resultant electric and magnetic field on the secondary.However, the amplitude will rise again in the secondary, when the primary magnetic field starting to collapse, which will result an electric field again, which direction could be manipulated, hence there are no more magnetic field in the primary, which will determine that. (with ferromagnetic core in the transformer that's not the case)

It look like to me there are ways to achieve conditions, when the resultant magnetic field and current direction, will not reverse at all. The magnetic field will cork screwing around the wire, and never reverse. The wave constantly moving in one direction, all the nodes, anti nodes moving away from any reference point, which you choose at any point of the circuit.




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"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #8 on: 2010-12-20, 20:30:40 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
An interesting document gives insight into the complexities of achieving "vaccuum".

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  Microcontroller
Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #9 on: 2010-12-20, 20:45:50 »
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You want me to assume everybody has got a pump and the needed materials to create a high vacuum OR do you want me to keep things simple?
In the first case i can post entire pages about how i did what to discover that nobody is picking up because it seems too difficult.
In the second case i present easy to check test results which anybody can verify without too much effort.

@Chef

The reason the magnetic field stays the same lies in the design of the output electrode.
There is a theory as to why it happens:

Theory:

The electric charge on a conductor rests entirely on the outside surface.
Moreover, electric charge tends to concentrate more heavily on sharp points and edges than on broad surfaces.
Because this is so, the electric field near a sharp point on a conductor is stronger than near a broad surface.
Sometimes this field can be so strong that it ionizes the air about the tip.
The tip then attracts and neutralizes ions that have an opposite charge as that of the conductor.
In addition, the tip repels like-charged ions.
This repulsion of ions creates an electric "wind" that emanates from the tip.

So this thing can be concidered some sort of open air "Plasma-rectifier" that is splitting the positive.

 :)
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #10 on: 2010-12-20, 20:57:55 »

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Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010-12-20, 20:45:50
The reason the magnetic field stays the same lies in the design of the output electrode.
There is a theory as to why it happens:


You could have any type of electrode at the ends of a secondary transformer, if the direction of the electric field changing in the transformer. Same with capacitative discharge, direction will change, if you flip the polarity.  

Or you want to tell me, doesn't matter how I connect a charged HV cap across a gas discharge tube,when the discharge happen, the magnetic field direction will be the same? I really don't think so, but sure, I could be wrong.



---------------------------
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #11 on: 2010-12-20, 21:02:51 »
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You are not getting the point Chef.

I'm not talking about gas discharge tubes.
I am talking about open air ionization.
This involves stripping air molecules.

The tube was only directed at poynt since he had to ask.

 :)
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #12 on: 2010-12-20, 21:06:06 »
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Another intresting point is that when the flow is directed to a grounded plate and there is a voltmeter in between, Earth shows up as being Positive.
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #13 on: 2010-12-20, 21:29:49 »
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Well thank you for sharing that....it is appreciated and very interesting especially the ground as positive.
Does the ground show as positive regardless of DC polarity of corona or AC drive? That would be something new.

I know that a strong positive corona will cool a metal plate that is heated, sucking off electrons.

Can't wait to test this out.

Here is something a little different, but also might be of interest.

http://sparkbangbuzz.com/corona-osc/corona-osc.htm


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #14 on: 2010-12-20, 22:04:23 »
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Well i can't wait to see your results.

Pherhaps i did switch in some diodes somewhere.
I performed these tests long time ago and i did many.
I remember there was "Something" there.
 
Also note that the flow is conductive.
When it comes close to the terminals of a charged cap it will discharge violently using the plasma as pathway..
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #15 on: 2010-12-20, 22:42:34 »

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Quote from: ION on 2010-12-20, 21:29:49
...

Here is something a little different, but also might be of interest.

http://sparkbangbuzz.com/corona-osc/corona-osc.htm



Yes, it is quite interesting.  An unusual relaxation oscillator
configuration.

There is an "RC" time constant which affects the frequency
of the "discharge" pulses developed across the 1.0 K
resistor.  Can you see "it?" 


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #16 on: 2010-12-21, 05:02:54 »

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Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010-12-20, 22:04:23

...
Also note that the flow is conductive.

When it comes close to the terminals of a charged cap it will discharge violently using the plasma as pathway..




This presents very interesting potential possibilities.

Could this be used as a "trigger" for the discharge of a capacitor
into a "Plasma Ignition System" type of spark plug for the
internal combustion engine?

Experimentation will be necessary to determine the time delay
characteristics and also to design an appropriate spark plug
with two insulated terminals:  one for the initiating high voltage
"trigger" input

 and

a second for the 400 Volt (or greater) capacitive discharge
"plasma" input.

Perhaps this technique has already been tested and evaluated?



---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #17 on: 2010-12-21, 05:20:47 »
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Yes i believe this is what happens in the so called water spark plug.
The loud explosive noise comes from the sudden discharge of the remaining energy from the cap into the spark.

But this is all on a side road.

Another and very important note is that the ion wind flow happens in open air and that it is not bound to any metal conductor like in classic circuitry with wires as the energy guiding pathway.
This is important for several reasons like speed and resistance and it is a big difference with what most guy's are used to.
I will try to continue with small posts covering one what i call "element" at a time.

 :)
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #18 on: 2010-12-21, 06:14:40 »

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Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010-12-21, 05:20:47
...

Another and very important note is that the ion wind flow happens in open air and that it is not bound to any metal conductor like in classic circuitry with wires as the energy guiding pathway.
This is important for several reasons like speed and resistance and it is a big difference with what most guy's are used to.
I will try to continue with small posts covering one what i call "element" at a time.

 :)


Very true!  The "ion wind" is capable of carrying charge
some considerable distance from the "emitter."


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #19 on: 2010-12-23, 03:40:54 »

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tExB=qr
electric field in motion

you can call it displacement current if it makes it more palatable

put another force field perpendicular and increase induced current.

« Last Edit: 2010-12-27, 00:23:44 by poynt99 »
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #20 on: 2010-12-23, 05:35:13 »
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Didn't someone on this forum, earlier this year, post about a small company that etched metal from a short distance using directed charge?

The process information said no connection to the workpiece was required, like a ground cable on a welding machine hookup.

This info was related to a mercury vapor vacuum tube (really small) used as a single element NRO.

If I remember correctly, no air was required. There was no Ion wind for that process.
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #21 on: 2010-12-23, 19:18:51 »
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So how can it be that the magnetic responce in space is always the same?
Well it turns out it is the design of the emitting electrode that is responsible for this effect.
The Ion Wind is always moving in the same direction when it leaves the electrode.

This ties into the work of T.H Moray back in 1920.
If you turn this into a circuit ,it does not matter what you put in all the energy that's available will be accellerated in one direction every tiny bit of it will add to the total sum and this methode allows you to extract or rectify randomness or chaos and so on.

Normally the total sum is zero because A cancels out B in the most simple example.
In our case here we neutralize A so we are only left with B
And that energy is forced through the circuit before it can return.

 :)

Edit: Removed some noise.
« Last Edit: 2010-12-25, 05:29:59 by Microcontroller »
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #22 on: 2010-12-23, 20:09:15 »

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Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010-12-20, 18:03:21
That's not where i'm heading here.

This is just about a sharp tip that is connected to a high voltage source.
It will spew out ion wind and there will be a magnetic response in free space.
That alone say's alot about the orgin of the magnetic field but i leave it up to you to draw those conclusions.

Anyway this paticular ion wind setup generates the same magnetic field regardless of the polarity of the power supply.
Simpel said this means the magnetic field is always the same no matter what you put in.
If you put in DC and switch polarity the magnetic field stays the same.
If you put in high frequency AC the magnetic field stays the same.

 :)

How did you determine that the magnetic field is always the same?
   
img  Microcontroller
Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #23 on: 2010-12-23, 21:02:09 »
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that is not important Grumpy.

If you want to ask questions, ask good ones.
I used a magnet on a string as well as the o'l compass.
While feeding the thing 35.000 Hertz if your intrested in some detailes.

 :)
   
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Re: Ionic Wind « Reply #24 on: 2010-12-24, 01:24:16 »

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Quote from: Microcontroller on 2010-12-23, 21:02:09
that is not important Grumpy.

If you want to ask questions, ask good ones.
I used a magnet on a string as well as the o'l compass.
While feeding the thing 35.000 Hertz if your intrested in some detailes.

 :)

It is a very good question, and leads to another one, equally as important.

What is the orientation of the detected field?
   
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