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2025-03-28, 12:12:09
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Author Topic: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!!  (Read 13101 times)

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charge into the earth?
CRC or CLC energy transfer between any two capacitors.
   

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CRC or CLC energy transfer between any two capacitors.

crc, cap resistor cap?
clc, cap inductor cap?


mags
   

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Buy me some coffee


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Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KV charge on 1 plate of a capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd  plate?
   

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CRC, cap resistor cap?
CLC, cap inductor cap?
Yes
   

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Yes


well considering crc, instead of conservation, we are waisting charge, all because we are just letting it go. 50% gone no matter the resistance value. unless you are intentionally wanting to produce heat by way of that transfer.

joel is trying to use that energy transfer from capA to capB.  but i think there can be a better way.  he is 'accepting'the 50% left in capA and B while charging capC.  im thinking we can charge capC and possibly get close to100% to capB from capA.

mags
   
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well considering crc, instead of conservation, we are waisting charge, all because we are just letting it go. 50% gone no matter the resistance value. unless you are intentionally wanting to produce heat by way of that transfer.

joel is trying to use that energy transfer from capA to capB.  but i think there can be a better way.  he is 'accepting'the 50% left in capA and B while charging capC.  im thinking we can charge capC and possibly get close to100% to capB from capA.

mags

Charge is conserved in both the CRC and CLC transfers.  It is the magnitude of reactance vs resistance that dictates the energy loss if the transfer is manipulated properly.  Charge and energy aren't the same.

Dave
   

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Charge is conserved in both the CRC and CLC transfers.  It is the magnitude of reactance vs resistance that dictates the energy loss if the transfer is manipulated properly.  Charge and energy aren't the same.

Dave

well he said crc or clc.

crc is the same as cap to cap.  resistance of .001ohm vs 1meg ohm, the result will be the same other than time it takes to complete. if you are saying that since there is still charge, capA, capAb or both, when all is said and done, that we have conserved charge, then i suppose thats your version of it and the value of that charge, before and after, is of no consequence when considering conservation of charge.

mags
   
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well he said crc or clc.

crc is the same as cap to cap.  resistance of .001ohm vs 1meg ohm, the result will be the same other than time it takes to complete. if you are saying that since there is still charge, capA, capAb or both, when all is said and done, that we have conserved charge, then i suppose thats your version of it and the value of that charge, before and after, is of no consequence when considering conservation of charge.

mags

It's not my version of it.  It is the collectively agreed upon definitions that we should adhere to in order to bring coherence to the ideas of which we speak.  Charge is in Coulombs (Q=C*V) and Energy is in Joules (1/2*C*V^2).  Just run the numbers and see that charge is always conserved in these types of transfers.

Dave
   

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It's not my version of it.  It is the collectively agreed upon definitions that we should adhere to in order to bring coherence to the ideas of which we speak.  Charge is in Coulombs (Q=C*V) and Energy is in Joules (1/2*C*V^2).  Just run the numbers and see that charge is always conserved in these types of transfers.
So what do you get when you run use these formulas in Magluvin's scenario outlined below?:

if you use verpies CLC circuit, and start with 10v, and turn off the switch/transistor when cap1 got down to 7.07v, that inductor will charge cap2 to 7.07v.
Yes, interrupting the CLC energy transfer early can cause both capacitors to become charged to the same voltage.
« Last Edit: 2025-03-25, 21:30:14 by verpies »
   
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So what do you get when you run use these formulas in Magluvin's scenario aoutlined below?:

Then you remove it from the definition of the original question which refers to a CRC or CLC, now you're getting into parametric variations which is what a lot of the mavericks in this field of study consider to be the way forward for 'free energy'.

Dave
   

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Then you remove it from the definition of the original question which refers to a CRC or CLC, now you're getting into parametric variations ...
It is still a CLC energy transfer, albeit not one executed to completion.
Opening the transfer switch a little earlier does not change any parameters (i.e. inductance or capacitance) of the circuit.
   
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It is still a CLC energy transfer, albeit not a complete one.
Opening the transfer switch a little earlier does not change any parameters (i.e. inductance or capacitance) of the circuit.

Please show me a realizable circuit in which you can just open a switch in a circuit with a current carrying inductor where the switch doesn't produce an enormous voltage in phase with the inductor's discharging current which dissipates most of that magnetic energy as heat at the switch with minimal transfer into C2.  The only way to end up with 7.07V in both C1 and C2 is to switch C1 out of the circuit with a high speed SPDT switch that closes the loop for L to discharge into C2 with a very low resistive path.  This effectively varies the capacitance of the inductor discharge circuit.

Dave
   

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Please show me a realizable circuit in which you can just open a switch in a circuit with a current carrying inductor where the switch doesn't produce an enormous voltage in phase with the inductor's discharging current which dissipates most of that magnetic energy as heat at the switch with minimal transfer into C2.  The only way to end up with 7.07V in both C1 and C2 is to switch C1 out of the circuit with a high speed SPDT switch that closes the loop for L to discharge into C2 with a very low resistive path.  This effectively varies the capacitance of the inductor discharge circuit.

Dave

ive done exactly that with the circuit you show above.  i run the sim at a very slow rate and switch it myself.  then disconnect the inductor from c2 when c2 reaches 7.07v AND when the inductors magnetic charge is at 0.

mags
   
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ive done exactly that with the circuit you show above.  i run the sim at a very slow rate and switch it myself.  then disconnect the inductor from c2 when c2 reaches 7.07v AND when the inductors magnetic charge is at 0.

mags

Yes, that circuit works to recover 7.07V in both caps.  However, this circuit is subject to parametric variation which is the key point here.
   

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Please show me a realizable circuit in which you can just open a switch in a circuit with a current carrying inductor
I cannot without providing another path for the inductor's current.

The only way to end up with 7.07V in both C1 and C2...
The cap voltages in my CLC circuit cross at 5V when the inductor's current is at its maximum.
   

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Yes, that circuit works to recover 7.07V in both caps.  However, this circuit is subject to parametric variation which is the key point here.

dont really get why you call what is left in capA as 'recovered', where it is more like what is left in capA after this particular transfer. capA went from 10v to 7.07v. capA lost charge and thats all. you can use the word recovered i suppose for 7.07v capB received from the charged inductor. but to combine end result charge in both capA and capB as recovered doesnt work for me..

mags
   

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If we take instead of inductance an ideal lossless electric motor with a flywheel mounted on a shaft.  :)
   

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If we take instead of inductance an ideal lossless electric motor with a flywheel mounted on a shaft.  :)

that would work also.

but, imagine a ferrite bead used for noise reduction on a computer monitor cable. wind wire on the bead as if you were winding a toroid.
if you bring a magnet close to the bead, it will be attracted to it.  but the more current you apply to the winding, the magmet will be less attracted. if enough current is applied to the winding till the core is saturated with flux, the magnet will no longer be attracted to the bead.  this was the concept of the second version of the orbo motor by steorn. magnets on the rotor are attracted to the core. when the magnet is pulled in to tdc of the core, we pulse the winding on the core, and the magnet passes by.  but that wasnt all.  in all that, the winding on the toroid core is not affected by the magnet passing by. no voltage generation, no lenz.

so back to the ferite bead...  if we insert a cylinder magnet in the bead that is almost as long as the bead, a lot of that magnets flux will be attracted to the bead as the bead creates a shorter path for the N and S flux. so some, most, or close to all of the magnets flux being in the bead, when we pulse the toroid winding, what happens to that flux in the core?  it expands outward. when we disconnect the input to the winding, the magnets flux is again attracted to the core and collapses inward.

so now we wind a second wire around the bead as if it were just a rod core around the circumference. this winding will be very close to 90deg of the toroid winding.  if we pulse the toroid winding, there will be virtually no output on the second winding.  so, what happens when we pulse the toroid winding with the magnet inserted? ;)  lenzless generator.

so for a single pulse of the toroid winding we get output on the second winding in one polarity when the field expands outward and cuts the second winding and another output from the second winding after the pulse when the magnets field collapses back to the core, cutting the second winding again with output of opposite polarity.  1 pulse input, 2 individual outputs

now, if we have a large enough bead where we can wind a toroid winding with enough inductance to convert the charge from capA 10v to 0v capB, and even just get close to 10v on capB, then we also have the output of the second winding that charges capC using the orbo effect to let the magnets flux expand and cut the second winding to charge capC.  and hopefully capC contains enough energy to cover for the small loss inherited by capB plus some, repeat.

back at ou.com we had a thread where we all were coming up with a way to make the orbo motor effect happen solidstate. this was my version.

i wind the second winding first though then the toroid winding.  seems the closer the output circumference winding is to the core, the better the output. tried both ways.

mags
   

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but, imagine a ferrite bead used for noise reduction on a computer monitor cable. wind wire on the bead as if you were winding a toroid.
if you bring a magnet close to the bead, it will be attracted to it.  but the more current you apply to the winding, the magmet will be less attracted.
What if it will be an iron bead ?
   

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What if it will be an iron bead ?

can work.  some of my cores measure continuity of near 50kohm.  iron may heat up a lot more with all the flux shifting.
one reason i suggest these cores is that most anyone in this field should or could be able to easily get one.  the magnets that i use can be found at homedepot hardware section. neo 4pac.  i use 8 stacked. but get more to experiment with the length of the stack. 8 is just 1 magnet short of being as long as the core which seems to be best so far for output.

and this is not a refined setup. once you get how it is working, it can inspire ideas to improve upon.  this is the basic concept and works quite well.
for the output you can use a bridge rectifier to capture both pos and neg from the output winding to 1 cap. about 1.5v drop that way. so we can use just 2 diodes and 2 caps, where on cap gets the pos and the other cap gets the neg and only .7v drop for each.  then also schotky diode down around .2v.  and finally can ay with a mosfet as a rectifier to bring that drop closer to 0v drop.  eliminating those drops should be important in any case that eff is important. if running low voltage especially. i run it anywhere from 5v to 30v pulses and output responds.

in an earlier post i think i was incorrect on wire and winding layer numbers. is what radioshack had in a 3pack of magnet wire. the green i believe is 27awg and the red was 30awg.  in the pics is the green and is 3 layers on the circumference output winding.  i though it was 2 as it was a while ago, 10yrs or so.  but the leads ar at opposit ends so it is not 2 layers as the leads would be at the same end of the core.  some of these cores range in size a bit. the magnets need to fit with the windings of the toroid winding.

 but if you build it with iron core im sure you will see what is going on.  high freq will heat up the iron.

mags
 
 
   

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mags
   

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...if enough current is applied to the winding till the core is saturated with flux, the magnet will no longer be attracted to the bead.  this was the concept of the second version of the Orbo motor by Steorn.
Yes, the attraction of a PM to a soft core indeed can be diminished in that manner.
   

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Yes, the attraction of a PM to a soft core indeed can be diminished in that manner.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FrtGzxOKpwQ


mags
   

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  but that wasnt all.  in all that, the winding on the toroid core is not affected by the magnet passing by. no voltage generation, no lenz.



There is one ferrite ring drossel from me. I connect it to oscilloscope. And move PM nearby. And I see voltage changes on the screen. And you say there shouldn't be anything...  Then I supply current to its winding. The oscillations from the movement of the magnet are smaller, but they still exist.
Magnet attract to ring as before.
   
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