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OverUnity Research > Benches > Grumage (Moderator: Grumage) > Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!!
2025-04-01, 01:56:01
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Author Topic: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!!  (Read 14565 times)
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #250 on: 2025-03-08, 23:47:50 »
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Something about the math in the paper doesn't add up to me. The transformer explanation doesn't add up to me either. The primary should react to the secondary no matter what. Displacement current across the capacitor should result in real current in the wire - the transformer should react as it would to any current pulse.

Also the fact that everything he throws together seems to work fine makes me suspicious. If it works then I'm all ears because I'd rather deal with a relatively low voltage, high current system than one with high voltages.

I can't rationalize in my head how the circuit isn't any different than a normal circuit though, where is the gain mechanism, excess energy coming from?
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #251 on: 2025-03-09, 15:16:52 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2025-03-07, 15:21:30

Well, i made sure there is no current flowing in the inductor, see screenshot where SW2 is closed (150ms) when no current through L1 (i L1) is flowing, so IMO it can not be that.

But I just noticed that even with SW2 open, we still have the drain on C2 where it is back to 0V after 5000 seconds (1.38 Hours).

I guess its building time to see what is really  happening.....

Itsu


It turns out that building this circuit (cap to cap via inductor (CLC) using 100uF caps and 1H inductor) is easily said than done.

It's not the caps, but the inductor or better the resistance of that inductor that's the problem.
For this CLC to work, we need a high capacity inductor (like 1H), but at the same time also a low (few Ohms) resistance.

I toke my biggest inductor (1.5mm Sq wire), stuffed it with ferrite rings and measured it only to be 15mH at 2.4 Ohm.
According to the LTspice sim, this was not going to work (only partially).

So i had to lower the used caps also to be 10uF, so i ended up with this diagram:



and this build:



Running 10V input on C1, waiting for the FG pulse to close SW1, i get this screenshot:



The DMM's across both C1 (left) and C2 (right) shows the following values just before the pulse:



and right after the pulse:



So it seems that it works "kind of" here, but IMO due to resistance in the inductor we are not able to fill C2 to the max.
Using super caps will be even harder, as we would need a much higher value inductor with even lower resistance.

Itsu
 
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #252 on: 2025-03-09, 15:51:08 »

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After using some (better?) audio grade bipolar 10uF caps, things improved:



Looking at the purple trace and the A and B cursor data (white circle) we started with 200mV on C2 and ended with -9V on C2.

Itsu
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #253 on: 2025-03-09, 17:58:00 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2025-03-09, 15:16:52
For this CLC to work, we need a high capacity inductor (like 1H), but at the same time also a low (few Ohms) resistance.
Of course.
Also, shortening the transfer time improves the resistive losses.

Quote from: Itsu on 2025-03-09, 15:51:08
After using some (better?) audio grade bipolar 10uF caps, things improved:
The π CLC circuit without a diode (depicted below) is even more efficient (no diode voltage drop), but it requires a bilateral switch (which you are using already anyway).



P1 adjusts the voltage at which the C1 is considered to be empty and at which the switch opens (useful if C1 doesn't get discharged all the way down to 0V).  Sim here.
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #254 on: 2025-03-09, 20:40:03 »

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OK, same components as above without the diode, so slightly modified circuit.

Results are indeed better, and the both caps have the same polarity now:

Itsu
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #255 on: 2025-03-09, 20:48:05 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2025-03-09, 20:40:03
Results are indeed better, and the both caps have the same polarity now:
Unfortunately this CLC π circuit cannot be realized with one MOSFET in lieu of the Reed Relay  :(

Quote from: Itsu on 2025-03-09, 15:16:52
I took my biggest inductor (1.5mm Sq wire), stuffed it with ferrite rings and measured it only to be 15mH at 2.4 Ohm.
If you'd closed the magnetic path of that inductor with high permeability material, its inductance could've reached 1H.
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #256 on: 2025-03-09, 21:41:17 »

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Quote
Unfortunately this CLC π circuit cannot be realized with one MOSFET in lieu of the Reed Relay  :(

OK.

For completeness, i also tried the MOSFET circuit, and it worked too, i only could not put all 4 traces on the scope due to grounding problems.  O0
But switching the MOSFET in the ground path instead of the reed switch works.

Quote
If you'd closed the magnetic path of that inductor with high permeability material, its inductance could've reached 1H.

OK, i can take a shot at that next.

Itsu
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #257 on: 2025-03-09, 23:28:26 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2025-03-09, 21:41:17
But switching the MOSFET in the ground path instead of the reed switch works.
Not for the π circuit, because C1 and C2 would get both charged up through the MOSFET's body diode.

Quote from: Itsu on 2025-03-09, 21:41:17
OK, i can take a shot at that next.
I doubt you have a ferrite core that is big enough to accommodate that coil.
Anyway, you already confirmed experimentally that CLC transfer is more efficient than CC transfer.  Increasing the CLC efficiency a little is not going to change anything.
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #258 on: 2025-03-10, 02:51:29 »

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what size caps are you using that need 1H coil??

10mh will do for caps below 10,000uf or 10mf

1000uf will work just fine with 10mh.  the effect can be seen with simple stuff you probably have around.  i do simple one shots capA to capB with a push button.  i dont get why this seems so dificult

mags
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #259 on: 2025-03-10, 02:56:11 »

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sorry. 1000uf.  not 10,000

mags
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #260 on: 2025-03-10, 09:29:05 »

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Quote from: Magluvin on 2025-03-10, 02:51:29
what size caps are you using that need 1H coil??

10mh will do for caps below 10,000uf or 10mf

1000uf will work just fine with 10mh.  the effect can be seen with simple stuff you probably have around.  i do simple one shots capA to capB with a push button.  i dont get why this seems so dificult

mags


Hi Mags,

My CLC experiments above show that my present 15mH 2.4 Ohm coil is not enough for 100uF caps as i am not ably to transfer more energy as when using normal C2C transfer (50%).

Only when i lowered the caps to 10uF ones, i was ably to get 95% or so transfer.

So if i want such a high transfer rate on bigger caps (like the 100uF from verpies his diagrams / simulations), i need higher inductance and / or lower resistance in the inductor.

The goal is to use super caps (100F) in this CLC transfer, so therefor the need for inductors in the (many) Henries range (but with low resistance).

Itsu
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #261 on: 2025-03-10, 09:39:32 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2025-03-09, 23:28:26
Not for the π circuit, because C1 and C2 would get both charged up through the MOSFET's body diode.
I doubt you have a ferrite core that is big enough to accommodate that coil.
Anyway, you already confirmed experimentally that CLC transfer is more efficient than CC transfer.  Increasing the CLC efficiency a little is not going to change anything.


I guess you are right, this CLC transfer of energy between caps works, at least at the values we use now.

I was hoping it could explain the effect Joel had with his CLC transfer as that is what it also is IMO where his L is the primary of a transformer.

Itsu

   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #262 on: 2025-03-10, 11:25:29 »
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For those wishing to see further info on some parameters change etc, see this simulation work by member poynt99 from years ago.

Gyula
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #263 on: 2025-03-10, 13:29:54 »

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Quote from: gyula on 2025-03-10, 11:25:29
For those wishing to see further info on some parameters change etc, see this simulation work by member poynt99 from years ago.
Yeah, this is such a common idea that a member of this forum wrote a paper about it a long time ago.
Everything, that he writes in it is true although it is hard to gather from it how the efficiency of the CLC transfer depends on the R/L ratio, so below is my contribution that addresses this relationship:

You can plot the following function (in e.g. MS-Excel) to see how the ratio of the final voltage V2 across C2, to the initial voltage V1 across C1, depends on the resistance (R) or inductance (L) or capacitance (C) in a CLC transfer. 



The same equation written as text:
V2/V1 = (1+e^(((-R*π)/(2*L))/(2/(L*C)-(R^2/(4*L^2)))^(1/2)))/2

This is assuming that C=C1=C2 and the underdamped case.

NOTE: In MS-Excel x^(1/2) works but it can also be written as: SQRT(x).  Also, write EXP(1) instead of e  or EXP(x) instead of e^x  and PI() instead of π.
« Last Edit: 2025-03-10, 14:47:32 by verpies »
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #264 on: 2025-03-10, 14:13:04 »
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Verpies:  Thank you.   O0   

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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #265 on: 2025-03-10, 14:44:50 »

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In kind, below is a graph of the V2/V1 ratio versus resistance in a CLC transfer, for the values of of C and L used by Itsu:


...see the attached MS-Excel file.

This should save Itsu the time needed to cannibalize his locomotive in order to obtain a closed core for his huge coil and beat his own V2/V1 record.

If you want to compare the influence of the resistance on the inductorless CC/CRC transfer, then read the footnote in this post.
Of course, even a straight piece of wire exhibits inductance, so pure CC/CRC transfers are only theoretical.
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #266 on: 2025-03-10, 16:03:45 »

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Thanks verpies,

i did some quick playing around with it, and it shows that with my present 15mH / 2.4 Ohm inductor and 10uF caps i can reach an efficiency of 0.966 (very to close to what i have now).
If increasing the Inductance to 1H (still with 2.4 Ohm resistance), efficiency can be increased to 0.995 (still with the 10uF caps).


If i swap to 100uF caps with the same 1H / 2.4 Ohm inductor i can reach a max. efficiency of 0.986.
With my present 15mH / 2.4 Ohm inductor and with 100uF caps i only get a max. efficiency of 0.901 which i did not came close to   yet..

Etc.   O0


Itsu
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #267 on: 2025-03-10, 16:38:44 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2025-03-10, 16:03:45
I did some quick playing around with it, and it shows that with my present 15mH / 2.4 Ohm inductor and 10uF caps i can reach an efficiency of 0.966 (very to close to what i have now).
This model does not account for the hysteresis loss of the core and for the EM radiation.

Quote from: Itsu on 2025-03-10, 16:03:45
With my present 15mH / 2.4 Ohm inductor and with 100uF caps I only get a max. efficiency of 0.901 which I did not came close to yet.
The quality of these 100µF caps could be the issue ...or the reed switch opens too early and arcs.
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #268 on: 2025-03-10, 17:40:04 »

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Just a thought for you, a bifilar wound inductor connected like tesla showed is four times the inductance with the same resistance.


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"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #269 on: 2025-03-10, 18:05:39 »

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Quote from: Room3327 on 2025-03-10, 17:40:04
Just a thought for you, a bifilar wound inductor connected like tesla showed is four times the inductance with the same resistance.
...and that means connected how?
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #270 on: 2025-03-10, 20:04:13 »

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Top picture.


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #271 on: 2025-03-10, 20:48:29 »

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OK before you ask I'll clarify how it works, I have already somewhere on this forum but here goes.

If you wind a bifilar coil and  and leave it unconnected and measure each of the two coils individually they will read whatever, lets say 10 mH's each you would think connecting them in series would give you 20 mH's but connected as Tesla 's patent, you will measure 40 mH's.

So if you want a 200 turn inductor and a normal wind it is 100 mH, you wind 100 turns bifilar giving you 200 turns total then connect them tesla style, separately each winding would read 50 mH but with the bifilar connection you would have 200 mH with the same length of wire same resistance.

Yes it only doubles the overall inductance in the end but with the same amount of resistance.
Hope I explained it well enough for people to understand how it works, but don't ask me why it does this, I don't know.

It's easy enough to try on on your work bench.


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"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #272 on: 2025-03-10, 21:08:00 »

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Quote from: Room3327 on 2025-03-10, 17:40:04
Just a thought for you, a bifilar wound inductor connected like tesla showed is four times the inductance with the same resistance.
Quote from: Room3327 on 2025-03-10, 20:48:29
It's easy enough to try on on your work bench.

It's been tried on the workbench already - take a look at the dialog below:

Quote from: Itsu on 2025-02-27, 13:29:36
I only had a spool of dual bonded magnet wire of 0.5mm diameter each (see picture) which i have put in bifilar mode.
It measures 45 Ohm and 114.5mH at 1kHz
Quote from: verpies on 2025-02-27, 14:38:07
What is the inductance of the green strand alone ?
Quote from: Itsu on 2025-02-27, 15:07:53
29mH @ 10kHz

Indeed the inductance quadruples but the resistance does not stay the same.

You can click on the "Quote from:" links above to see the details of the conversation and photos.
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #273 on: 2025-03-11, 09:49:23 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2025-03-09, 20:48:05
Unfortunately this CLC π circuit cannot be realized with one MOSFET in lieu of the Reed Relay  :(
If you'd closed the magnetic path of that inductor with high permeability material, its inductance could've reached 1H.


I did some very rudimentary tests on cored coils how they behave when closing the magnetic path of that inductor with high permeability material

It seems the inductance increases anywhere between 5 and 7 times when doing so, with the latter being a yoke where the halves are put back together  (considered by me to be a good magnetic path).


This means that my present 15mH coil could be increased to about 105mH IMO.

Itsu
   
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Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #274 on: 2025-03-11, 10:27:57 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2025-03-11, 09:49:23
It seems the inductance increases anywhere between 5 and 7 times when doing so, with the latter being a yoke where the halves are put back together  (considered by me to be a good magnetic path).
Without air gaps ?
   
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