Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!!

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Aking.21

Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #25 on: 2025-02-12, 17:42:23 »

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I have modified my previous post.

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Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KV charge on 1 plate of a capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd plate?

Aking.21	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #26 on: 2025-02-12, 18:19:44 »
Sr. Member Posts: 489	Kapanadze's 1st patent explained: Here we have Kapanadze's three-plate capacitor. Focus on that. I have labeled the three terminals A B and C. 1st Phase: Terminals A and B are pulsed using both a frequency generator and a spark gap. They are pulsed Lagace style. (The third plate receives energy from electrostatic induction and is used in conjunction with plate B to form the feedback circuit.) 2nd Phase: Terminals B and C are used to feed back into the circuit. Safeguard: A safeguard against "runaway" is provided by the spark gap. Have at it. None of this will work in Spice or any other program because the understanding of how a capacitor works is flawed. The voltages are my guestimates based on the available evidence. All the other components in the circuit are to tame the power to comply with modern electronic equipment requirements.- such as 50 hz and 220 volts in Europe. For the US it has to be different. ------------------------ Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! KAPAexplained.jpg (152.09 kB, 1125x737 - viewed 152 times.) --------------------------- Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KV charge on 1 plate of a capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd plate?

Magluvin

Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #27 on: 2025-02-13, 03:34:40 »

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https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/how-does-a-third-plate-affect-capacitance-in-a-3-plate-capacitor.592090/

mags

Magluvin	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #28 on: 2025-02-13, 22:45:22 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 675	you said Kap said he had to make a component, assuming the cap. did he say if it was made of wire, like a bifi or trifi? mags

PhysicsProf

Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #29 on: 2025-02-14, 00:41:27 »

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Quote from: Aking.21 on 2025-02-10, 07:04:21

AAh, well here's the thing. If you charge one plate of a capacitor, the environment charges the other plate for free.
By putting a charge on a plate, you create an imbalance in nature.

Re Lagace. Yes he's getting good results, and I think we should replicate those. But better will come at a higher frequency, but we have to start somewhere.
It also appears that if you ground the uncharged plate it works better. If you think about it, in an on-off situation, you are only ever pulsing one side.
Put it this way, I think it is the best lead we have ever had that gives us a path to figuring out ou.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azDFR5RwVkA
Now if we can turn the grounding on and off cheaply, what do you think will happen?

In the following video I show you what happens when you repeatedly pulse a capacitor bank. In this case, I was using a spark gap as the on-off switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBR2tOTsyfg

I appreciate your sharing with us, Aking.21.
The schematic you provide for the Lagace video is clear - and not complex.

Have you replicated it yet? Anyone? (Im waiting for high-capacitance super-caps to arrive....)

Aking.21	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #30 on: 2025-02-14, 01:39:40 »
Sr. Member Posts: 489	Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2025-02-14, 00:41:27 I appreciate your sharing with us, Aking.21. The schematic you provide for the Lagace video is clear - and not complex. Have you replicated it yet? Anyone? (Im waiting for high-capacitance super-caps to arrive....) I have not started to replicate legace, but I am learning about the induction side, and it's a little weird. For example, when working with mains, nothing on an ne2 shows up until you earth it say to a battery-negative terminal or your body. This means that the electrons from my body were forming the negative part of the electrostatic induction into the circuit I don't want to use mains earth wire as in the UK the neutral is earthed. It's actually very dangerous to the uninitiated, which is another reason to keep it on a private forum. I am already on my third fuse. lol It may explain why Kapandze was hunting for good earthing in one of his early videos. I do have some supercaps at 2600F each, but have not used them yet. As a thought. If you use one of those mains detector screwdrivers, it just has to be a similar situation. --------------------------- Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KV charge on 1 plate of a capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd plate?

PhysicsProf	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #31 on: 2025-02-14, 05:20:01 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3030	Thanks, Aking.21... Another question I have regards the frequency generator. 1- Is it really operating at just 26.2 Hz? also- 2- Does the transistor permit current to pass (thru the transformer), with just the +signal from the freq. generator applied to the Base? as suggested by your intriguing schematic.

Magluvin	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #32 on: 2025-02-14, 18:06:02 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 675	"Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KW charge on 1 plate of a capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd plate?" with super caps, i dont suggest putting 1kv charge... even 1 plate, may breach the caps very low voltage barrier. suppose that might be a test to initially try to see if it can handle it. i did some work with small 1.2kv neon transformers from older scanners and some Av plug on caps. if we need to produce the hv at a cost either way, wouldnt an av plug be all we need? mags

Magluvin	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #33 on: 2025-02-14, 18:20:00 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 675	i have a bunch of blue dipped caps. im going to put an av plug and the neon trafo and another av plug in reverse on the cap leads and tie that to gnd. will run the 12v input of the neon trafo from a batt pack and see if the cap charges faster. if the neon trafo pulls more input, 1 wire to av plug, then we have to consider capacitance, currents through the air itself. never thought to have the reverse av plug to gnd, so gotta try now. simple to setup. mags

Aking.21	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #34 on: 2025-02-14, 18:51:14 »
Sr. Member Posts: 489	Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2025-02-14, 05:20:01 Thanks, Aking.21... Another question I have regards the frequency generator. 1- Is it really operating at just 26.2 Hz? also- 2- Does the transistor permit current to pass (thru the transformer), with just the +signal from the freq. generator applied to the Base? as suggested by your intriguing schematic' According to Lagace, he tried it by hand and it worked. So after getting tired, he automated it as per my experiment reconstruction. I talked to Grum about the transistor device and his opinion was that transistor switching would lose some power, rather than put a gain into the circuit. Maybe Gyula would like to comment as he is the expert in these matters. I am not sure about the switching device schematic. I looked at the video, and it looked like that. It was certainly not operating a relay. He mentions that he uses a cheap Chinese frequency generator to control a transistor switch. You could trigger the transistor by the frequency generator registering high (square wave) and switch the transistor off by the fg registering low. You would need a 1k ohm resistor for the base of the transistor. It all depends on the type of transistor. I intend to build one next to see what happens. A good simple diagram from someone more experienced in circuit design would help us all. I looked at the video, and it looks like 26.2 Hz. Lagace said he tried a few different frequencies. 2 Yes the current passes through the transformer. Hence the varying magnetic field. It is pulsed DC. I believe. --------------------------- Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KV charge on 1 plate of a capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd plate?

Grumage

Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #35 on: 2025-02-14, 19:40:51 »

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Hi Guys.
I mentioned the fact that there’s inherent resistance losses using semiconductors for switching….

EDIT. As we don’t know how his switch is wired ( is the semiconductor fully isolated? ) There’s always a possibility that the capacitor is getting some energy from the drive circuitry.

Now, to the super caps. May I take you back here. https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4429.msg103940#msg103940

The capacitor bank contains 5x 2.7 V capacitors wired in series and was rated for 13.5 V. @ 40F if you follow on the vendor replaced the faulty bank. Well, today I found the faulty unit and was extremely surprised to find it still had over 11Volts standing and was able to light a 12 volt incandescent bulb until fully discharged.

I’m hoping that my son will be over at the weekend to help me with a couple of simple tests. Putting an ammeter between a fully charged capacitor and an empty one will be an interesting first step.

Cheers Graham.

---------------------------

Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

Magluvin	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #36 on: 2025-02-14, 23:22:42 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 675	car amplifiers use multiple transistors in parallel to reduce the resistance. mags

gyula

Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #37 on: 2025-02-15, 23:21:42 »

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Hi Aking and Graham,

Indeed, using semiconductors for switching involves some loss in power. But the loss can be kept at a relatively low level. Consider the equivalent series DC
resistance of supercapacitors (500 F range), it ranges from about 2 to 5 milliOhm, depending on the make and the manufacturer.

By a random search, this type has 3.1 milliOhm equivalent DC resistance: https://handsontec.com/index.php/product/500f2-7v-super-capacitor-solder-tab-terminal/

When the switch is on, the DC resistances of the two caps in Joel's circuit are added up from the current flow point of view and consider to add the winding resistance of the 2 V transformer coil,
it may be in a similar range.

So roughly speaking, the total DC resistance in the closed circuit may amount to say an average of 10 milliOhms or so, not counting the ON resistance of the switch yet.
Using a power MOSFET like this https://www.mouser.co.uk/datasheet/2/196/Infineon_IRF1324_DataSheet_v01_01_EN-3362809.pdf it has a typical ON resistance of 1.2 milliOhm,
max 1.5 milliOhm. Here for instance it can be purchased: https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Infineon-Technologies/IRF1324PBF?qs=2r01AXMCG3Nmd46Swuw5wA%3D%3D

Now consider the total DC resistance involved in Joel's closed circuit: it is around 11.2 milliOhm and now you know this depends much on the components used.

If you charge up supercapacitor C1 to say 2 VDC and C2 and the other caps are fully empty, the initial peak current at the switch-on moment would be 2 V / 11.2 milliOhm = 178 Amper (peak current).
This warrants the use of the MOSFET type I refer to above with heat sink like Joel used. OF course there are many similarly rated power MOSFETs to choose from.

So from this example, you can see the power loss of the suggested switch is the smallest, compared to the rest of the other circuit elements.

Will draw a circuit schema tomorrow. The cheap frequency generator can be like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/404347009846

A question to you both: In Joel's video https://youtu.be/0c7llvTjlwQ?t=2 there is a black cylinder glued to his board, it looks like for me as a HV module like this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/314779472132
BUT as I can see in the video, the wires of this module are NOT connected to the rest of the circuit, hence no high voltage field
can be present as an additional energy source IF the presence of such field is a must to have the extra high output.

How you can see this I wonder. I pose this question because I do not know whether to include the HV module in the schematic and where to connect its wires?

Gyula

Aking.21	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #38 on: 2025-02-16, 03:20:59 »
Sr. Member Posts: 489	I am having difficulty responding. I can't send the diagram. I keep getting an error message. It's this one: https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4757.msg114600#msg114600 Quote from: gyula on 2025-02-15, 23:21:42 Hi Aking and Graham, A question to you both: In Joel's video https://youtu.be/0c7llvTjlwQ?t=2 there is a black cylinder glued to his board, it looks like for me as a HV module like this https://www.ebay.com/itm/314779472132 BUT as I can see in the video, the wires of this module are NOT connected to the rest of the circuit, hence no high voltage field can be present as an additional energy source IF the presence of such field is a must to have the extra high output. How you can see this I wonder. I pose this question because I do not know whether to include the HV module in the schematic and where to connect its wires? Gyula Hi Gyula, We don't need the HV module as it is not used in the demonstration by Lagace. I have the same cheap function generator as in the video. I have a pretty good idea of how to wire it but don't want to destroy it, hence my request. Here's the diagram. Thanks for getting involved, Howerd. --------------------------- Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KV charge on 1 plate of a capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd plate?

Magluvin	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #39 on: 2025-02-16, 04:56:18 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 675	IRLB3034 is also low on resistance. 1.4mohm mags

Magluvin	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #40 on: 2025-02-16, 05:01:32 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 675	i have the same sig gen also.. the irlb3034 hits its lowest on resistance at about 4v on the gate. so i rin the sig at 4 to 5v and a separate supply for the circuit the transistor drives. common gnd of course. 3034 is max 40v. mags

Magluvin	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #41 on: 2025-02-16, 05:03:10 »
Group: Mad Scientist Hero Member Posts: 675	also the sig gen can run on input up to 30v mags

gyula	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #42 on: 2025-02-16, 11:08:38 »
Group: Tech Wizard Hero Member Posts: 1250	Hi Howerd and all, Your schematic here https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4757.msg114600#msg114600 is ok, I drew the same (and attached below) but used GND symbols for the common negative connections. (No need for real ground or earth connection, I do not mean that.) Regarding the PWM oscillator connections, I also attached an explanation, please tell if you have further questions. Note to Graham: use only a clamp-on Ampermeter to avoid burning the internal circuits of a normal Amper meter (DMM or Analog) due to the huge peak currents involved with a super capacitor discharging to another one. I mean in case you really wish to measure the current, IMHO no need for such test. I understand curiosity of course but be aware of possible consequences. Addition: regarding the diode bridge, the requirement for current rating would be several Ampers, at least 4-5 A. Gyula ------------------------ Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! Joel possible energy recycling schema 1.jpg (148.07 kB, 1074x591 - viewed 280 times.) Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! PWM oscillator connection.jpg (159.46 kB, 921x654 - viewed 92 times.)

gyula	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #43 on: 2025-02-16, 12:17:54 »
Group: Tech Wizard Hero Member Posts: 1250	Hi Mags, I agree with the IRLB3034, its 40 V max drain source voltage rating is more favorable, so I would suggest it for our UK friends: https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Infineon-Technologies/IRLB3034PBF?qs=9%252BKlkBgLFf0jZeWnRhawEQ%3D%3D Pin connections are in the same order like for the IRF1324. Thanks, Gyula Quote from: Magluvin on 2025-02-16, 05:01:32 i have the same sig gen also.. the irlb3034 hits its lowest on resistance at about 4v on the gate. so i rin the sig at 4 to 5v and a separate supply for the circuit the transistor drives. common gnd of course. 3034 is max 40v. mags

Grumage	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #44 on: 2025-02-16, 13:52:15 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2782	Dear Gyula. Many thanks for your technical assistance. As my son was working away this weekend I am unable to do any serious damage…. 😂 On a more serious note is there any possibility of the MOSFET drive energy being transferred into the receiving side? Cheers Graham. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

gyula	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #45 on: 2025-02-16, 15:15:03 »
Group: Tech Wizard Hero Member Posts: 1250	Hi Graham, Yes, there is possibility for the drive power leaking through the switch, mainly via the gate - drain capacitance of the MOSFET (in the data sheet it is Crss, reverse transfer capacitance. For the IRF1324, at 2 V drain-to-source voltage Crss is around 4 nF and for the IRLB3034 it is around 2 nF, from their data sheet. At the switching frequency of around 27 Hz, the 4 nF reverse transfer capacitance represents about 1.4 MegaOhm, and the 2 nF represents 2.9 MegaOhm reactance. These reactances are very high to let meaningful driving power pass through to the rest of the circuit, so IMHO the high COP value Joel claimed cannot come from the function generator. (Here I assume his switching device is not faulty.) Addition: at near zero drain-to source voltages this switch starts to operate, the Crss of the MOSFETs is higher, data sheet specifies it from 1 V. So even 6-7 nF reverse capacitances can be present. For a 7 nF capacitor the reactance is around 840 kOhm, still high enough to block significant drive power appear across the drain-source. Consider also that when there is driving power present across the gate-source, the drain-source, the drain-source points are shorted, the MOSFET conducts the charge current from C1 to C2. Gyula

Aking.21	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #46 on: 2025-02-16, 19:42:02 »
Sr. Member Posts: 489	Thank you Gyula for your technical assistance. Lagace says that his supercaps seem to have a memory effect and the voltage bounces back up. My view is that this is dielectric absorption on "steroids" as a result of repeat pulsing. A fact Graham and I have established. As a reminder - here is the video that shows the "memory" effect which is super dielectric absorption. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBR2tOTsyfg This leads to a second point: optimum conditions for the capacitor siting. ie you can't just have the capacitor hanging around anywhere on the circuit board. We are looking at electrostatic induction, and proximity to other devices is going to affect the behavior of the static field around the supercap. To add a humorous anecdote: Graham was once experimenting with high voltage and his hair stood on end! Clearly a highly charged field! However humour aside, this answers a very important fact our group encountered in Tbilisi, Georgia all those years ago. The team was in Kapanadze's home in the morning and he refused to turn the device on because of a thunderstorm. He explained that the charged atmosphere could attract lightning. Kapanadze waited until the afternoon to turn the device on, and that is when the Aquarium 2 was turned on. You can hear Mike Taylor saying "It's working now". That is why he made that comment because the team had to wait for the air to clear. I asked Mike how Kapanadze turned the device on and he said it was the usual method of using a 9-volt battery to inject power into the circuit. I hope these comments give us a clearer understanding of the technology we are dealing with. Regards, Howerd. « Last Edit: 2025-02-18, 01:07:08 by Aking.21 » --------------------------- Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KV charge on 1 plate of a capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd plate?

Itsu

Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #47 on: 2025-02-16, 19:58:51 »

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Quote from: gyula on 2025-02-16, 11:08:38

Hi Howerd and all,

Your schematic here https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4757.msg114600#msg114600 is ok, I drew the same (and attached below) but used GND symbols for the common negative connections. (No need for real ground or earth connection, I do not mean that.)

Regarding the PWM oscillator connections, I also attached an explanation, please tell if you have further questions.

Note to Graham: use only a clamp-on Ampermeter to avoid burning the internal circuits of a normal Amper meter (DMM or Analog) due to the huge peak currents involved with a super capacitor discharging to another one. I mean in case you really wish to measure the current, IMHO no need for such test. I understand curiosity of course but be aware of possible consequences.

Addition: regarding the diode bridge, the requirement for current rating would be several Ampers, at least 4-5 A.

Gyula

Hi Gyula,

are you sure your drawing is the same as the one from Aking.21?

See his and yours below.

In Joel his video and in the drawing from Aking.21 there is a direct connection between the POSITIVE poles of C1 and C2 (500F) and the MOSFET is in series with the secondary of the transformer on the NEGATIVE poles of C1 and C2.

EDITTED the direct connection between C1 and C2 to be on the POSITIVE poles!

Itsu

« Last Edit: 2025-02-17, 09:24:55 by Itsu »

gyula	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #48 on: 2025-02-16, 20:11:02 »
Group: Tech Wizard Hero Member Posts: 1250	Hi Itsu, thanks for your mail, I will revise my drawing, probably later tonight or tomorrow. I apologize from everyone. Gyula

gyula	Re: Checking out Joel Lagace - Hang on I'M SERIOUS!! « Reply #49 on: 2025-02-16, 21:43:15 »
Group: Tech Wizard Hero Member Posts: 1250	dear Itsu, No time for a drawing tonight. Watching Joel's video, as I see it, the positive poles of C1 and C2 seem to be directly connected by a thick (yellow and green colored) wire and the negative poles are connected by the switch via the 2V transformer coil. Can you check this again? My understanding is that the single, vertical, white and wide stripes on the sides of the caps indicate the negative poles. (Regardless, my drawing does not give back the circuit shown in the video, no doubt.) Aking has not indicated the poles of the capacitor, otherwise his drawing seems correct. Gyula Quote from: Itsu on 2025-02-16, 19:58:51 ... In Joel his video and in the drawing from Aking.21 there is a direct connection between the negative poles of C1 and C2 (500F) and the MOSFET is in series with the secondary of the transformer on the positive poles of C1 and C2.