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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Theory and Learning Center > Learning Center Miscellaneous > how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom?
2024-11-26, 20:34:33
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Author Topic: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom?  (Read 6866 times)
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img  david
Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #25 on: 2024-08-07, 02:40:51 »
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Quote from: chief kolbacict on 2024-08-06, 19:01:51
But if small colloidal conductive particles, for example copper, moved by Brownian motion,  in a solution in the magnetic field of a permanent magnet.
The entropy of this system will decrease, won't it ?    ;)

Hi,

"colloidal" - that's a new one for me. My setup does fit this description and that this new effect (Brownian motion) plays a role now as well but i didnt think about it in that way. i'm just thinking about the "magnetic fields" of iron atoms and what happens when you manipulate the iron atoms so their magnetic fields "pop in and out" of existence. to answer your question - an undisturbed setup with copper particles in a solution and a permanent magnetic field will just increase its entrophy over time. the particles will just go into a state where everything is evened out (and aligned with the magnetic field). in my mind you need some kind of oscillation and hopefully you pick up energy during those oscillations and with this i go to verpies question

Quote from: verpies on 2024-08-06, 19:46:39
You are making that clear, but what of it?
You will have expended a lot of chemical or electric energy to ionize a few atoms and decrease their unaligned magnetic moments.
How is that supposed to yield free energy ?

the energy is not expended in this setup. you can see this in the latest picture as well. the electrodes make up the capacitor part of the oscillating circuit and then i have drawn a solenoid inside the box as the counter part of the oscillating circuit. so now we have an electric field that changes direction and intensity just for the purpose of ionizing and neutralizing the electric charge of the iron atoms inbetween the electrodes. charged iron atoms also do work on the electrons so i dont think the energy was expended. this is what should turn on and off the magnetic field of the iron atoms and we also have the permanent magnet to solve the problem with the alignment of every atomic magnetic field. this should give us some pulsing magnetic field over the baseline of the permanent magnetic field and this is where i see free energy. we do not "pay" for the emergence of the atomic magnetic field everytime it switches between ionized and neutral - it's purely quantum mechanic. and who the hell knows where quantum mechanics gets its energy from. or i'm completely wrong and someone already calculated that the atomic magnetic field is not free and we do pay some sort of energy price when "deleting" or "creating" it.

i just have this very simple picture of the iron atom where electrons are the "fuel" for the magnetic motor of the atom. take it away and you have no magnetic field. and changing magnetic fields are normally associated with energy output.
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #26 on: 2024-08-07, 12:09:17 »

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I mean when a metal particle moves with Brownian motion in a magnetic field, this field induces vortex currents in particle .
And the forces acting on a particle will be different if it moves along or across the lines of force.
This means that chaotic movement will become more orderly.And only thanks
to the thermal energy of moving molecules.
« Last Edit: 2024-08-07, 16:32:02 by chief kolbacict »
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #27 on: 2024-08-07, 14:38:44 »

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Quote from: chief kolbacict on 2024-08-07, 12:09:17
I mean when a metal particle moves with Brownian motion in a magnetic field, it induces vortex currents in particle .
That is true for macro particles in which eddy current can develop.
It is false for single molecules and non-conductive salts of metals.

The motion of charged particles will still be curved by the Lorentz deflection regardless whether they can support eddy currents or not.
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #28 on: 2024-08-07, 15:21:47 »
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Quote from: chief kolbacict on 2024-08-07, 12:09:17
I mean when a metal particle moves with Brownian motion in a magnetic field, it induces vortex currents in particle .
And the forces acting on a particle will be different if it moves along or across the lines of force.
This means that chaotic movement will become more orderly.And only thanks
to the thermal energy of moving molecules.

hmm - i think when particles become more orderly in a setup like this it actually means that entropy is increasing. for entropy to decrease the system has to create some sort of imbalance but that doesnt happen here. everything just becomes more smooth and less energetic.

i watched another veritasium video on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxL2HoqLbyA

there is a part in the video (11:33) where he actually explains a situation where entropy could decreases but it only happens in low particles systems. the more particles you have the less likey it becomes for entropy to decrease. and because everything is made out of a bajillion particles the chance for entropy to decrease is basically zero.

but of course it also made me think of ways how to create unlimited work/energy with this mechanism. the example with the two metal bars that only consist of 8 atoms each and 10 energy packets - it makes you think its totally easy to make an energy siphoning contraption in this scenario. bring the two metal bars together when they are in equilibrium, wait until one bar gets hotter than the other (9 vs 1 energy packets). seperate the bars again and store them. repeat this process simultaneously with a bajillion tiny metal bars and you end up with hot and cold metal dust.

well - i guess its impossible to make tiny machines that can bring together and seperate 8 atom metal bars that also work with less energy that we gain from this process - but it's still free energy we are gaining C.C

p.s. i have another thing that bugs me now but maybe i should put this in another thread? please tell me what i should do with this thought: imagine a macroscopic metal ring - 10cm in diameter - what happens if you remove "one" electron from this ring and then you put that ring in an environment where it can never get the electron back? there is now one atom in this macroscopic metal ring that is emanating a positive charge but where is it? It is not in a fixed postion! there are a bajillion (sorry i love this word too much) other electrons in this ring that still move freely between all the atoms so when one of those electrons fall onto the positive charged atom it will displace the positive charge on the ring. Isn't that correct? What is happening with this positive charge? is it going to zoom around the ring with backbreaking speeds? or is it doing some Brownian motion maybe? what i'm imagining of course is some sort of free energy because there is a charge running around the ring and maybe with some lorenz force we can get some roation of the ring itself going...

i should stop now - this is going way over my head. feels like a fever dream

p.p.s. yay - new posts  :)
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #29 on: 2024-08-07, 15:23:30 »

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Quote from: david on 2024-08-07, 02:40:51
The energy is not expended in this setup. you can see this in the latest picture as well. the electrodes make up the capacitor part of the oscillating circuit and then i have drawn a solenoid inside the box as the counter part of the oscillating circuit. so now we have an electric field that changes direction and intensity just for the purpose of ionizing and neutralizing the electric charge of the iron atoms in between the electrodes. charged iron atoms also do work on the electrons so i dont think the energy was expended. this is what should turn on and off the magnetic field of the iron atoms ...
What you are describing is the Magnetoelectric Effect in which the permeability of the ferrite is modulated by the electric field occurring between two plates of a capacitor (the nonconductive ferrite contains iron atoms and acts as the "dielectric" of this capacitor).

This is nothing new. We have done experiments like this in this forum but the electric field predominantly influences the crystalline lattice and domain structure of the ferrite.  The electron stripping phenomenon is negligible at the achievable voltages.

The diagram below depicts the test-setup for measuring this phenomenon.



It works like this: when the LC tank (which C1 is a part of) is excited by a short pulse from an external loosely coupled coil or by a spark gap (or by other means) - a classic decaying ringdown occurs in the LC tank which frequency is determined by the inductance of L1 and capacitance of C1.  The period & frequency of this ringdown can be observed by a voltage probe or a current probe and measured by an oscilloscope.



The inductance of L1 is determined by the turns of its winding, the properties of the ferrite as well as by its air gap.  While the winding and the gap stay constant, the properties of the ferrite are influenced by the electric field occurring between the copper plates that hug the ferrite from both sides (the larger area of these plates the better...and the closer they hug the ferrite, the better, too). 
Thus, C1 stays constant but the inductance of L1 is altered by the E-field and that can be observed as a varying frequency of the ringdown on the scope.

Alternatively, L1 and C1 can form a TD Oscillator  with a Tunnel Diode and a small battery ...or a Colpitts Oscillator with a transistor and a small battery and if you have an inductance meter then it can be connected directly to L1 and C1 can be deleted.

The photos below show the physical embodiment of this test-setup.





« Last Edit: 2024-08-13, 14:36:29 by verpies »
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #30 on: 2024-08-07, 15:25:05 »

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Quote from: david on 2024-08-07, 15:21:47
hmm - i think when particles become more orderly in a setup like this it actually means that entropy is increasing.
No, entropy is the measure of disorder - not order.

Magnetic field can affect the order of ferromagnetic substances. It is nothing new, for example see this.
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #31 on: 2024-08-07, 16:38:52 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2024-08-07, 15:25:05
No, entropy is the measure of disorder - not order.

Magnetic field can affect the order of ferromagnetic substances. It is nothing new, for example see this.

i'm not sure what entropy trys to represents then. what matters is that there is an energy gradient where things can happen. there has to be a place of low entropy energy and high entropy energy. cooling something down or making it more orderly and spaced out means you have more high entropy energy.
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #32 on: 2024-08-07, 17:00:46 »

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Quote from: david on 2024-08-07, 15:21:47
...the example with the two metal bars that only consist of 8 atoms each and 10 energy packets - it makes you think its totally easy to make an energy siphoning contraption in this scenario. bring the two metal bars together when they are in equilibrium, wait until one bar gets hotter than the other (9 vs 1 energy packets). separate the bars again and store them. repeat this process simultaneously with a bajillion tiny metal bars and you end up with hot and cold metal dust.
This is the idea behind Maxwell's Demon and the problem with it is that measuring, deciding and separating these bars costs more than you think.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Rotaxane_Crystal_Structure_EurJOrgChem_page2565_year1998.png/440px-Rotaxane_Crystal_Structure_EurJOrgChem_page2565_year1998.png
how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom?
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #33 on: 2024-08-07, 17:18:02 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2024-08-07, 17:00:46
This is the idea behind Maxwell's Demon and the problem with it is that measuring, deciding and separating these bars costs more than you think.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Rotaxane_Crystal_Structure_EurJOrgChem_page2565_year1998.png/440px-Rotaxane_Crystal_Structure_EurJOrgChem_page2565_year1998.png
how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom?


Ok - I can accept that

well… it still makes me think about it. damnit…

why does it cost so much energy?  C.C

I will stress my brain with that later. What i want to talk about now is that Ferroelectric Effect you mentioned
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #34 on: 2024-08-07, 17:32:35 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2024-08-07, 14:38:44
That is true for macro particles in which eddy current can develop.
It is false for single molecules and non-conductive salts of metals.

The motion of charged particles will still be curved by the Lorentz deflection regardless whether they can support eddy currents or not.
No molecules,no charge of my particles.It is simply macro pieces of metal,which is quite little,to moved by impact of warm molecules.  It's a pity that effect will be small. I think. Because size this colloid particle is small,and velocity is small as well. :(
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #35 on: 2024-08-07, 18:55:22 »

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Quote from: chief kolbacict on 2024-08-07, 17:32:35
It is simply macro pieces of metal,which is quite little,to moved by impact of warm molecules.  It's a pity that effect will be small. I think. Because size this colloid particle is small,and velocity is small as well. :(
If the particles are big enough to support eddy currents and if they are conductive and resistive, then they will be slowed down by the magnetic field, however the eddy currents induced in them will be converted to heat according to i2R.

If the particles have zero resistance, then their average speed will NOT be slowed down by the magnetic field.
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #36 on: 2024-08-07, 20:46:16 »
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@verpies

so with the Ferroelectric Effect you are telling me that it is possible to change the permeability of a given substance (ferrit in your example) by applying an electric field to it? do i understand this correctly? this baffles me because if we had just this effect we should already have free energy devices

i made another sketch to show what i mean.

the question would be now - when we close the acceptance coil circuit how would a current create a feedback force that pushes against the electric field change? Do you guys understand what i mean? is there maybe some absence of feedback? that is always something we look for in generators.
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #37 on: 2024-08-08, 00:55:19 »

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Quote from: david on 2024-08-07, 20:46:16
so with the Magnetoelectric Effect you are telling me that it is possible to change the permeability of a given substance (ferrit in your example) by applying an electric field to it?
Yes, but not all ferrites exhibit this phenomenon.
It is also possible to change the permeability of the ferrite by the Villari effect.
...and temperature - for completeness.

Note that changing the permeability is not synonymous with changing the magnetic flux. This is especially important in complex magnetic circuits which consist of many alternative magnetic flux paths.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-07, 20:46:16
do i understand this correctly?
Yes

Quote from: david on 2024-08-07, 20:46:16
i made another sketch to show what i mean.
Your sketch has three major flaws:
1) The magnetic flux path is not closed.
2) The majority of the PM's flux will penetrate the coil even if the ferrite is absent.
3) In this configuration of the magnetic circuit, the change of the ferrite's permeability does not maximize the changes of magnetic flux, which penetrates the coil.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-07, 20:46:16
this baffles me because if we had just this effect we should already have free energy devices
Maybe we do. See this.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-07, 20:46:16
the question would be now - when we close the acceptance coil circuit how would a current create a feedback force that pushes against the electric field change?
The electric current flowing in that coil opposes the change of magnetic flux which penetrates that coil.  If that current encounters no resistance than this opposition is total and the flux remains constant.
This affects the magnetic moments of electrons and nuclei, effectively freezing them in space.
The question whether that opposition pushes back on the electric field as it attempts to move these electrons and domains can only be answered by an experiment.
« Last Edit: 2024-08-12, 15:15:55 by verpies »
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #38 on: 2024-08-08, 03:30:07 »
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hmm,

i dont understand why permeability is not synonymous for magnetic flux and why a majority of the PM's flux will penetrate the coil even if the ferrite is absent. ferrit has high permeability so it should bundle magnetic flux through the coil much better than air. the ferrit will definitely snap onto the magnet which means that there is good flux path through the coil but we could also close the flux path with a common iron horseshoe if that helps.

we didnt talk about how the electric field actually changes the permeability of the ferrit core - will it go up or down and how big is the change that we can achieve?

those other methods of changing permeability are not recoverable. the electric field is the only thing that can retain its energy.
 
Quote
from wiki:

The inverse magnetostrictive effect, magnetoelastic effect or Villari effect, after its discoverer Emilio Villari, is the change of the magnetic susceptibility of a material when subjected to a mechanical stress

temperature is always a loss so electric field is the only thing that seems plausible
« Last Edit: 2024-08-08, 12:49:57 by david »
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #39 on: 2024-08-08, 09:36:15 »

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Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 03:30:07
I don't understand why permeability is not synonymous for magnetic flux
Because it is only a factor in the Hopkinson's law and that law applies to all flux paths - not only the one you consider.  If air was a magnetic insulator than things would be different ...but it isn't.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 03:30:07
...and why a majority of the PM's flux will penetrate the coil even if the ferrite is absent.
Because of field geometry and coil's placement. Draw the magnetic flux lines in your sketch and see for yourself.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 03:30:07
ferrite has high permeability so it should bundle magnetic flux through the coil much better than air.
First of all, the word "bundling" implies spatial concentration of the magnetic flux - not the magnitude of the flux.
Such concentration affects magnetic flux density (measured in Teslas or Gauss, symbolized by "B") - not the magnitude of the flux (measured in Webers, symbolized by "Φ").   Coils "care" only about the latter.

For example all the flux distributions below make no difference for the coil and alternation between these distributions does not cause any current induction in the coil.



Secondly, the flux in your sketch has no incentive to take paths outside of the space occupied by the coil.

The Hopkinson's law still applies and the magnetic flux through the coil will decrease a little in the absence of the ferrite, but not down to zero.  It just has no incentive to go outside of the coil.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 03:30:07
the ferrite will definitely snap onto the magnet which means that there is good flux path through the coil
The force of attraction is determined by the spatial flux density gradient (dB/ds), not by the density of the flux (B) nor the flux magnitude (Φ) itself.  Coils don't "care" about dB/ds nor B.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 03:30:07
but we could also close the flux path with a common iron horseshoe if that helps.
That will minimize alternative flux paths.



A toroidal core is the optimal shape for magnetic flux.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 03:30:07
we didnt talk about how the electric field actually changes the permeability of the ferrit core - will it go up or down
Down

Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 03:30:07
and how big is the change that we can achieve?
For an answer to this question you will have to measure it.  It will depend on many factors, especially the substance. No gap in the core with a permanent magnet is necessary to measure the permeability of a ferrite.  One winding is enough.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 03:30:07
those other methods of changing permeability are not recoverable. the electric field is the only thing that can retain its energy.
You are wrong about the acoustic method.
 
Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 03:30:07
temperature is always a loss
Usually yes, unless the heat comes from the environment.  See this thread.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 03:30:07
...so electric field is the only thing that seems plausible
No
« Last Edit: 2024-08-08, 19:15:56 by verpies »
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #40 on: 2024-08-08, 13:30:08 »
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i have drawn the magnetic flux how i think it should be.

the conditions are given for induction to happen in my mind even without the iron horseshoe
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #41 on: 2024-08-08, 13:46:40 »

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That is how the flux looks like in an air gap of a closed magnetic circuit:



Notice that only few lines bulge out of the gap and complete their circuit outside of the core (leak out).
If the air gap becomes filled with high permeability ferrite then only these few fringing flux lines get pulled closer to the gap and slightly fewer lines leak out of the core.
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #42 on: 2024-08-08, 16:00:21 »
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Okay. I see what you mean. What happens if you make two air gaps? PM - airgap - ferrit - airgap - PM
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #43 on: 2024-08-08, 17:17:34 »

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Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 16:00:21
Okay. I see what you mean. What happens if you make two air gaps? PM - airgap - ferrit - airgap - PM
If you alternate the permeability of the substance in the airgaps then the flux becomes proportionally diverted to that gap which has the lower reluctance and the flux amplitude (ΔΦ) is maximized in the arms and the system approaches optimal operating conditions. 

The magnetic circuit can be practically realized with an E-core and with only one PM in the middle leg in lieu of the winding appearing in this patent but without the yoke denoted by 404 and PMs denoted by 402 and without any actual air gaps.

« Last Edit: 2024-09-17, 00:36:57 by verpies »
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #44 on: 2024-08-08, 23:10:48 »
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good evening

i can see the idea behind the E shape core now as well. it has the same idea as my quick sketch but it's more optimized to control max magnetic flow. you have like 4 states in which the system can be by charging the two capacitors

00
01
10
11

i illustrated it in another picture.

charging one capacitor makes this side of the EƎ core weaker for magnetic flux so it gets diverts to the other side creating the condition for induction in the acceptance coil. or two coils? there are two acceptance coils or not? more optimization i guess - but now comes the more sobering part of this. i guess people build it and it didnt work. so there is some kind of feedback - something that weakens the electric field when pulling energy out of acceptance coils. it seems like the magnetic flux and the electric field pulling on the same thing. you either have alignment for a strong electric field and a weak magnetic flow or you have alignment for a strong magnetic flow and a weak electric field. i think this is the problem here.


let me bring back my idea where you actually "remove" magnetic alignment from iron atoms while it's electric field stays intact. imagine we replace the ferrit part with this colloidal iron atom mixture. it will have a much worse permeability but in this setup you can actually bring down the permeability to basically zero. or that of air. i mean i hope there is some measurable difference in permeability.

what do you think of this verpies?
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #45 on: 2024-08-09, 00:56:25 »

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Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 23:10:48
I can see the idea behind the E shape core now as well. it has the same idea as my quick sketch but it's more optimized to control max magnetic flow. you have like 4 states in which the system can be by charging the two capacitors

00
01
10
11
Yes but you could just alternate between states 01 and 10.

Also, notice that although this magnetic path arrangement approaches the optimal one and is very simple, there is still room for improvement by making the coil experience a bidirectional flux with an H-bridge arrangement like in the patent.

Below are the switching waveforms for an electric H-bridge (an analogy):


Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 23:10:48
charging one capacitor makes this side of the EƎ core weaker for magnetic flux so it gets diverted to the other side creating the condition for induction in the acceptance coil. or two coils?  there are two acceptance coils or not?
Yes, two coils for symmetry. One would perform the same function, too.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 23:10:48
but now comes the more sobering part of this. i guess people build it and it didnt work.
Actually, nobody had ever built this exact embodiment of your idea, as far as I know.  The patent uses a different method of flux diversion.

Quote from: Patent US20090096219A1
Pg.12 (1), Paragraph [0011]:

"Another electrical means of implementing a reluctance switch is the placement within the primary magnetic path of certain classes of materials that change (typically increase) their reluctance upon the application of electricity.

Another electrical means of implementing a reluctance switch is to saturate a sub-region of a primary magnetic path by inserting conducting electrical wires into the material comprising the primary magnetic path."

The embodiment described in the patent uses the 2nd method and you are proposing the 1st method.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 23:10:48
so there is some kind of feedback - something that weakens the electric field when pulling energy out of acceptance coils. it seems like the magnetic flux and the electric field pulling on the same thing. you either have alignment for a strong electric field and a weak magnetic flow or you have alignment for a strong magnetic flow and a weak electric field. i think this is the problem here.
Maybe. This needs to be verified empirically.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-08, 23:10:48
let me bring back my idea where you actually "remove" magnetic alignment from iron atoms while it's electric field stays intact. imagine we replace the ferrit part with this colloidal iron atom mixture. it will have a much worse permeability but in this setup you can actually bring down the permeability to basically zero. or that of air. i mean i hope there is some measurable difference in permeability. What do you think of this verpies?
I don't see how that would be feasible.
« Last Edit: 2024-08-09, 07:46:53 by verpies »
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #46 on: 2024-08-09, 08:22:13 »

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https://youtu.be/uJ_NpWnCXzM
Yes, It's my friend,Weslik.  :)

Only this ferrite is conduction of current quite good from me...
How do you try to applied high voltage to it ?
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #47 on: 2024-08-09, 08:34:52 »

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Quote from: chief kolbacict on 2024-08-09, 08:22:13
https://youtu.be/uJ_NpWnCXzM
Yes, It's my friend,Weslik.  :)

Only this ferrite is conduction of current quite good from me...
Except that he uses gadolinium - not ferrite.
   
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Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #48 on: 2024-08-09, 13:21:59 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2024-08-09, 00:56:25
Actually, nobody had ever built this exact embodiment of your idea, as far as I know.  The patent uses a different method of flux diversion.

my idea or your idea? the setup we looking at now is your idea or not? or maybe you derived this design from the patent? the patent design was build or not? also i prefer simpler designs with less effectiveness so its easier to understand and explain.

so... if we actually want to build our current design with the two magnetic paths... do you know where to get all the components and what ferrit material we would need?

and how would we measure energy in and out of this system? hmm... for me the easiest way to measure energy would be capacitors. we have a starting capacitor with an initial amount of energy and then we do one "pulse" of energy transfer by connecting the starting capacitor with C1 or C2 and then put a capacitor on the acceptance coil with a diode so the capacitor cant oscillate with the acceptance coil and dispers all it's energy.

then we measure starting capacitor, C1/C2 capacitor and acceptance capacitor for final amount of energy.

hmm - i still have no good feeling about his. it just feels like that this ferrit substance has magnetic and electric dipols bound to its physical alignment. it can't appease both. we have to get rid of one of the dipols.
   
img  verpies
Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #49 on: 2024-08-09, 16:59:51 »

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Quote from: david on 2024-08-09, 13:21:59
my idea or your idea?  the setup we looking at now is your idea or not? or maybe you derived this design from the patent?
Your idea to affect the magnetic properties of iron-containing materials with electricity. The magnetic circuit optimization is mine and I derived it from the patent.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-09, 13:21:59
the patent design was build or not?
I have never built it and don't know of anyone who has completed it.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-09, 13:21:59
also i prefer simpler designs with less effectiveness so its easier to understand and explain.
The test for the magnitude of electric field's influence on a ferrite's magnetic properties is as easy as can be.  Only one magnetic path and one winding needs to be wound on one of the commercially available ferrite cores and HV DC applied to two plates across the ferrite, while an inductance meter measures the inductance of the winding.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-09, 13:21:59
do you know where to get all the components
Yes, except for the ferrite.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-09, 13:21:59
...and what ferrit material we would need?
No, I will not narrow down the specific type of material for you. I will only remark that some ferrites are conductive and some are not.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-09, 13:21:59
and how would we measure energy in and out of this system? hmm... for me the easiest way to measure energy would be capacitors. we have a starting capacitor with an initial amount of energy and then we do one "pulse" of energy transfer by connecting the starting capacitor with C1 or C2 and then put a capacitor on the acceptance coil with a diode so the capacitor cant oscillate with the acceptance coil and dispers all it's energy. then we measure starting capacitor, C1/C2 capacitor and acceptance capacitor for final amount of energy.
That would work.

Quote from: david on 2024-08-09, 13:21:59
hmm - i still have no good feeling about his. it just feels like that this ferrit substance has magnetic and electric dipols bound to its physical alignment. it can't appease both. we have to get rid of one of the dipols.
If you don't verify it empirically, you will never be sure.
   
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