how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom?

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david

how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « on: 2024-07-30, 17:25:44 »

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Posts: 34

well

here i am again. having this itch to talk about magnets and energy and unlimited power. i can't escape it so i might as well get more technical/mathematical about it.

it's all in the same spirit of my original post (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4549.0) but now i'm being more specific - turning single magnetic atoms (i'm looking at you iron) on and off (for proof of concept... for now).

the question i have in the title of this post is - how much (total) energy is in the magnetic field of an iron atom? so now you may ask - david - why do you want to know that? are you planing on liberating the energy in the magnetic field of the iron atom? How do you want to do that?

my answer is: by ripping out electrons (because they are the main cause for the atoms magnetic field) from it's half-filled orbital shells until the atom itself becomes effectively none magnetic (magnetic properties of the atom core can be/should be ignored). in my understanding by undoing a magnetic field you liberate the energy that was stored in the magnetic field. this value is something i can't figure out. i asked chatgpt about this but it always gives me some answer about "potential" energy that the magnatic atom has in an external magnetic field - not the energy that magnetic field itself has. so this would be one value i want to plug into the energy comparison and on the side we already know the energies that are needed for ripping out electrons from atoms - it's called: ionization energy.

here is a neat chart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionization_energies_of_the_elements_(data_page)

when we look down at iron it says

1st	7.9024 eV
2nd	16.1878 eV
3rd	30.652 eV
4th	54.8 eV
5th	75.0 eV
6th	99.1 eV
7th	124.98 eV

and so on

to be perfectly honest - i dont know how many electrons we have to remove until we remove the unpaired electrons from the half-filled shells that contribute the lion share of the magnetic properties of the iron atom but at least we have some kind of ballpark.

thanks for reading and hopefully i hear from you soon
David

chief kolbacict	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #1 on: 2024-07-30, 18:09:22 »
Sr. Member Posts: 275	Quote from: david on 2024-07-30, 17:25:44 the question i have in the title of this post is - how much (total) energy is in the magnetic field of an iron atom? Maybe there is no energy at all? Just like we can't take energy from a permanent magnet until we move it past the coil.

Allcanadian	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #2 on: 2024-07-30, 19:10:08 »
Hero Member Posts: 2735	The forces involved in ordinary matter are almost unimaginable. For example, a 1 cm aluminum cube has around 7.82 x 10^23 electrons total and only 7.7% are free electrons. If we could removed all the free electrons the surface potential would be 1.81 x 10^18 or 1.81 quintillion volts. Now if we only wanted a small surface charge like 10,000 volts we would only need to remove 0.0000000055% of the free electrons. As we can see the energy and forces in ordinary matter are almost beyond our comprehension. So the problem of "ripping out electrons" is problematic. If we moved all the free electrons in the 1 cm aluminum cube 1 meter away the cube would be at 1.81 quintillion volts and the force of attraction 768 trillion tons according to ChatGPT. We could only remove a very small fraction of the free electrons before any insulation would break down and the physical material ripped apart. It's kind of amazing when we think about it. In fact, this concept is how I reproduced Tesla's radiant matter experiments. If a large discharge around 500kV strikes a body in a very small time period the energy does not have time to dissipate. The concentrated energy exceeds the strength of the material and starts ripping it apart on the surface. Since the surface and the ejected material have a like charge the particles of material are ejected at high velocity from the source as radiant matter. It's literally grade school science however as you can imagine there are many dangers involved. A capacitor discharge at 500kV with a striking distance around 7 inches is lethal. In conclusion, I don't think it would be possible to remove enough electrons to effect the magnetic field. We could not even remove any amount of the free electrons to matter before the voltage and forces became excessive. Remove only 1% of the free electrons in a 1 cm aluminum cube and your at 260 trillion volts . AC --------------------------- Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

david	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #3 on: 2024-07-30, 23:24:46 »
Newbie Posts: 34	i'm aware of the incomprehensible forces regarding charged particles and scaling their numbers up to everyday objects. i was thinking about solutions in that regard but for now it's just about the concept - is there energy to be made by removing electrons from magnetic atoms until their magnetic field collapses (and there is some sort of energy release from that collapsed magnetic field) and how much energy do we have to put in?

verpies	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #4 on: 2024-07-31, 21:18:08 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3499	Removing electrons from iron atom is opposed by the electric force, thus iron's ionization energies predominantly represent the energy of the electric field between iron's protons and electrons. To obtain the magnetic energy per unit of space volume we can use the formula B²/2μ₀ Since the intrinsic hyperfine magnetic field inside metallic iron is -33 Tesla, then 1cm³ of iron represents 433.3 Joules.

david	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #5 on: 2024-08-01, 02:02:59 »
Newbie Posts: 34	oh my... thank you for your contribution verpies "intrinsic hyperfine magnetic field inside metallic iron" - that is a mouthful but with the numbers you have given i can calculate the magnetic field energy of one iron atom. Density of iron is 7.874 g/cm3 so 1cm³ of iron weighs 7.874g iron has 55.845 g/mol 7.874 / 55.845 = 0.140997 ~ 0,141 1 mole = 6.022x10^23 particles 6.022x10^23 x 0,141 = 8.49086x10^22 and now i divide 433.3 Joules by 8.49086x10^22 433.3 / 8.49086x10^22 = 5.10313x10^-21 Joule 1 Joule [J] = 6.241506363094x10^18 Electronenvolt [eV] 5.10313x10^-21 x 6.241506363094x10^18 = 0,0318512324 eV ...so the intrinsic hyperfine magnetic field energy of 1 iron atom is 0,0318512324 eV? that is grossly underwhelming

verpies	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #6 on: 2024-08-01, 13:43:39 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: david on 2024-08-01, 02:02:59 "intrinsic hyperfine magnetic field inside metallic iron" - that is a mouthful That data comes from this paper. Quote from: david on 2024-08-01, 02:02:59 ...so the intrinsic hyperfine magnetic field energy of 1 iron atom is 0,0318512324 eV? that is grossly underwhelming ...what if it does not become depleted? Anyway, that energy is comparable to the kinetic energy of a bullet from a pistol. If you are looking to get more energy out of iron then aim to destabilize its nucleus. See this thread.

chief kolbacict	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #7 on: 2024-08-01, 15:21:16 »
Sr. Member Posts: 275	How many electrons fly per second in an electron beam in a picture tube? And how many electrons fly in the beam of electron beam welding?

verpies	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #8 on: 2024-08-01, 19:58:39 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3499	6.242 × 10¹⁸ electrons per second for each Ampere of current.

chief kolbacict	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #9 on: 2024-08-02, 07:39:27 »
Sr. Member Posts: 275	Quote from: verpies on 2024-08-01, 19:58:39 6.242 × 10¹⁸ electrons per second for each Ampere of current. Then we could add zaryad to your aluminum cube,with help of stream of electrons. Or cancel ones by stream pluses particle. But we need energy source .

david	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #10 on: 2024-08-04, 04:27:36 »
Newbie Posts: 34	well - all my research now shows me, that the energy of the tiny atomic magnet is magnitudes underneath the ionizing energy of the atom and this almost took the wind out of my sails... but i can't just stop. I made a small illustration to bring home the idea and to show the two states of the iron atom i want to emphasize on. does this not look significant? ah tiny magnetic field that can be flipped... and we dont have to "pay" energy to create this tiny magnetic field. the atom just has to switch between being ionized and not being ionized. i'm not sure how much energy is wasted in this process and if you could brake into positive energy gain somehow. one thing i want to mention now is the problem that was brought up quite fast - the volatility of such atom. you can never have a solid where individual particles are all having ++++ electric charge. such object would just explode. my idea is to have some kind of chemical bonds or whats refered to as "doping" in semiconductor technology that divert electrons away from the half-filled shells of the iron atom. in my mind when the electrons are not in the exact position to interfere constructively you will also have no magnetic field. i can try to make a picture about that later. but now you may ask - how do i plan on reverting this artificially caused gridlock? my answer would be by sending a current through that material in hopes that the flowing electrons do occupy the orbitals of the iron atom again so the tiny magnetic fields reemerge again... for just a moment. maybe that's all we need to get use out of the temporay activation of the atomic magnetic fields. i'm tired. i have to sleep now ------------------------ how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? Unbenannt.png (80.49 kB, 1030x520 - viewed 209 times.)

verpies	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #11 on: 2024-08-04, 21:13:08 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: david on 2024-08-04, 04:27:36 I made a small illustration to bring home the idea and to show the two states of the iron atom i want to emphasize on. It does not account for the Nucleon Magnetic Moment.

david	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #12 on: 2024-08-05, 13:00:29 »
Newbie Posts: 34	Quote from: verpies on 2024-08-04, 21:13:08 It does not account for the Nucleon Magnetic Moment. I know but the nucleon magnetic moment is also magnitudes smaller than that of the undisturbed iron atom with it’s unpaired electrons orbiting it. I read somewhere that a single electron has a greater magnetic moment than its atomic core that it is bound to. In most atoms the magnetic fields of the orbiting electrons cancel each other out. But not in iron (and some other elements). That’s why i like the idea of manipulating the iron atom so much.

verpies	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #13 on: 2024-08-05, 14:02:53 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3499	Making iron non-ferromagnetic on demand is one issue - twisting its magnetic moments in one direction is another.

david	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #14 on: 2024-08-05, 19:12:41 »
Newbie Posts: 34	Quote from: verpies on 2024-08-05, 14:02:53 Making iron non-ferromagnetic on demand is one issue - twisting its magnetic moments in one direction is another. a regular, permanent magnet could do that. here are some more sketches ------------------------ how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? Unbenannt2.png (20.54 kB, 858x478 - viewed 165 times.)

verpies	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #15 on: 2024-08-06, 00:16:40 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3499	How are you going to remove electrons from Iron without quintillions of Volts and huge electric forces ? Alas, two spheres spaced 1 meter apart and charged to 1 Coulomb each will electrically repel with a force equivalent to the weight of over 91.5 thousand metric tons. ( see this ).

david	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #16 on: 2024-08-06, 02:35:18 »
Newbie Posts: 34	Quote from: verpies on 2024-08-06, 00:16:40 How are you going to remove electrons from Iron without quintillions of Volts and huge electric forces ? Alas, two spheres spaced 1 meter apart and charged to 1 Coulomb each will electrically repel with a force equivalent to the weight of over 91.5 thousand metric tons. ( see this ). how did we come from single atoms with maybe 4-5 electrons removed to an object thats is charged with 1 Coulomb? we are talking in complete different ballparks regarding the charges we are working with. we have one iron atom where we remove 4 electrons for example - that is 4x elementary charge which is 1.602176634E−19 which is 6,408706536E-19 and now we multiply by a number of iron atoms that we can spread out in a sensible way without electric forces becoming too high. that's what i meant with suspended iron atoms in the sketch. we have this list with electron volts which are needed to remove electrons from iron atoms. 1st 7.9024 eV 2nd 16.1878 eV 3rd 30.652 eV 4th 54.8 eV 5th 75.0 eV 6th 99.1 eV 7th 124.98 eV can we put an electric field to this number or an actual Voltage number for our electrodes? i dont know how to calculate that. and then we have to calculate somehow how many electrons we can seperate in a real scenario. the electrons rush to the positive electrode but there is also a barrier that prevents the electrons from reaching the electrode while the iron atoms are stuck in place. this is where the charges start to accumulate and where we have a real limit how many charges we can actually seperate. hopefully it's enough so that the "magnetic field" switching of the iron atoms is actually measureable and for all intense and purpose does some work. like a flicker in magnetic flux that can be transformed into work.

verpies	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #17 on: 2024-08-06, 12:14:10 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: david on 2024-08-06, 02:35:18 how did we come from single atoms with maybe 4-5 electrons removed to an object thats is charged with 1 Coulomb? Because 1 gram of Iron consists of ≈10²² iron atoms. Quote from: david on 2024-08-06, 02:35:18 we have one iron atom where we remove 4 electrons for example... So you have ≈4×10²² electrons to be removed, which collectively carry a charge of ≈4×10²²e in 1g of iron.. Converting that collective charge of ≈4×10²²e to Coulombs yields ≈6408C. since 1 Coulomb = 6.241509×10¹⁸e, ...and the elementary charge, e = 1.602176634×10⁻¹⁹ S.

david	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #18 on: 2024-08-06, 13:00:24 »
Newbie Posts: 34	but i never mention 1 gram of iron. i know 1 gram of iron has a bajillion atoms in it. think about it this way - how many charges can we reliably seperate with technology we have nowadays? now divide this number by 4 and we have the amount of iron atoms we can work with. that wont be one gram of iron. that's a few nano or micro grams of iron. we have machines that can put on single layers of atoms right? this is the scope i'm talking about. maybe i can get some math going with this. there are some convenient formulas for counting charges, voltage, capacitance and so on - thank god no differential equations required

verpies	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #19 on: 2024-08-06, 13:13:38 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: david on 2024-08-06, 13:00:24 ...that's a few nano or micro grams of iron. we have machines that can put on single layers of atoms right? this is the scope i'm talking about. So what can you do with 1 microgram of ionized Iron ? Anyway, 1 microgram of Iron with 4 electrons per atom removed still has a charge of 0.006408 Coulombs and two such specks will electrically repel with a force equivalent to the weight of 37.6 metric tons.

david	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #20 on: 2024-08-06, 13:43:09 »
Newbie Posts: 34	you still thinking about it the wrong way - we are not talking about a solid. we are talking about individual iron atoms floating in some kind of medium. 1 microgram of individual floating atoms in a given space so when the electric field gets applied all the iron atoms get +4 positively charged and the medium doesn't get teared to shreads.

verpies	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #21 on: 2024-08-06, 15:26:29 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3499	Why? What difference will the ionization of that microgram of Iron make ? Physical or chemical...

david	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #22 on: 2024-08-06, 16:09:03 »
Newbie Posts: 34	Quote from: verpies on 2024-08-06, 15:26:29 Why? What difference will the ionization of that microgram of Iron make ? Physical or chemical... the difference is the magnetic field/magnetic moment of the iron atoms being "off" when they are ionized and "on" when they are neutral. i'm sorry if i'm not making this clear enough.

chief kolbacict	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #23 on: 2024-08-06, 19:01:51 »
Sr. Member Posts: 275	But if small colloidal conductive particles, for example copper, moved by Brownian motion, in a solution in the magnetic field of a permanent magnet. The entropy of this system will decrease, won't it ?

verpies	Re: how much energy is in the magnetic field of one iron atom? « Reply #24 on: 2024-08-06, 19:46:39 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: david on 2024-08-06, 16:09:03 the difference is the magnetic field/magnetic moment of the iron atoms being "off" when they are ionized and "on" when they are neutral. i'm sorry if i'm not making this clear enough. You are making that clear, but what of it? You will have expended a lot of chemical or electric energy to ionize a few atoms and decrease their unaligned magnetic moments. How is that supposed to yield free energy ?