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Author Topic: Blackbird and the secrets it holds.  (Read 7456 times)
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Prior to A dozen or so years ago
If you asked most people on the planet if you could go straight into the wind ( even faster than the wind)
Using just the wind ( in a car boat or “whatever “
Most would laugh ( all ?)
And yes ..DWFTTW (down wind faster than the wind)…also made for snickers… until it didn’t ( was also done)

Then a bet was placed
 https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=806&v=yCsgoLc_fzI&feature=youtu.be
One very interesting bit “which broli seems to have built “
Appears at the 13:45-14:0? Mark
Showing the “roll”….friction seems to play ?


Then a young lady shows her design on a treadmill “zipping” or over taking the ground speed of the treadmill
F6 acknowledges there is no limit (“infinite “?) except that created by the environment ( after broli posted his supporting data)

So it takes motion or something in motion to give rise to this opportunity..( the wheel work of nature??)
On a planet that’s spinning a thousand miles an hour .. zipping along in space at 63,000? Miles an hour
Where there is absolutely nothing anywhere that is not also in perpetual motion ( atomically etc)
All is in motion…
I am greatful for broli’s musings ..
Very
And I see he got another member musing
Smudge
Quote
That video showing the little trolley moving faster than the applied force could be the answer to Bessler's wheel.
End quote
He did write a bit more in broli’s friction topic
Post 34
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4616.msg112558;topicseen#msg112558

Wonderful news
broli is learning how to build …( and inspiring others ( me))
*attached images below)

 Empirical evidence always rules the day,
( just ask the professor who lost the bet in above video…
No stone left unturned…

Respectfully ( and with gratitude ( and definitely paying attention!!))
Chet K
   

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Prior to A dozen or so years ago
If you asked most people on the planet if you could go straight into the wind ( even faster than the wind)
Using just the wind ( in a car boat or “whatever “
Most would laugh ( all ?)
And yes ..DWFTTW (down wind faster than the wind)…also made for snickers… until it didn’t ( was also done)

Then a bet was placed
 https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=806&v=yCsgoLc_fzI&feature=youtu.be
One very interesting bit “which broli seems to have built “
Appears at the 13:45-14:0? Mark
Showing the “roll”….friction seems to play ?


Then a young lady shows her design on a treadmill “zipping” or over taking the ground speed of the treadmill
F6 acknowledges there is no limit (“infinite “?) except that created by the environment ( after broli posted his supporting data)

So it takes motion or something in motion to give rise to this opportunity..( the wheel work of nature??)
On a planet that’s spinning a thousand miles an hour .. zipping along in space at 63,000? Miles an hour
Where there is absolutely nothing anywhere that is not also in perpetual motion ( atomically etc)
All is in motion…
I am greatful for broli’s musings ..
Very
And I see he got another member musing
Smudge
Quote
That video showing the little trolley moving faster than the applied force could be the answer to Bessler's wheel.
End quote
He did write a bit more in broli’s friction topic
Post 34
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4616.msg112558;topicseen#msg112558

Wonderful news
broli is learning how to build …( and inspiring others ( me))
*attached images below)

 Empirical evidence always rules the day,
( just ask the professor who lost the bet in above video…
No stone left unturned…

Respectfully ( and with gratitude ( and definitely paying attention!!))
Chet K

Nothing wrong with the story.
It's how the story is being told.


Brad


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Nothing wrong with the story.
It's how the story is being told.


Brad

 Look I sometimes can yap endlessly about stupid things and have too many of my own dumb opinions like everybody else. I am no story teller or "hero".  Ultimately, opinions and stories aside, all I did was share a thing I had with everyone else. If you dont like then you can ban me from your story telling communities.

Anyway I have yapped enough now, this is going to be my last post until "that" post. Take care  O0
   

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Believing in something false doesn't make it true.
Hi Brad,

I don't think your idea of the propeller acting as a pair of sails is correct.  I know they made that comparison in the first video.  But look closely at the video around the 16 and a half minute mark and stop the video or use slow motion to note the angle of the blades.  They are acting like a fan, not a pair of sails.  And proof of this is the model on the treadmill.  There is no wind involved in that at all.  Just the turning of the wheels which is driving the propeller to move the car faster than the treadmill is turning the wheels.

My 2 cents.
Carroll


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Hi Brad,

I don't think your idea of the propeller acting as a pair of sails is correct.  I know they made that comparison in the first video.  But look closely at the video around the 16 and a half minute mark and stop the video or use slow motion to note the angle of the blades.  They are acting like a fan, not a pair of sails.  And proof of this is the model on the treadmill.  There is no wind involved in that at all.  Just the turning of the wheels which is driving the propeller to move the car faster than the treadmill is turning the wheels.

My 2 cents.
Carroll

Hi Carroll

The treadmill buggies work differently, where it is the treadmill motor that is turning the propeller, which pushes the buggy up hill.
In this case, the ground (treadmill bed) is moving, which in turn powers the wheels that turn the propeller.

With the blackbird, the ground supplies no power to the vehicle, as it is stationary.
The vehicle is powered by the wind. You take away the wind, and the vehicle stops, which means that it is not the propeller pushing the wind backwards.
It is hard for most to understand, but the propeller is acting as a sail, which surfaces, in relation to the wind, are going down wind slower than the vehicle, due to their angle and rotation.
The effect can be replicated with a flat sail, where the sail will travel down wind slower than the vehicle.
Every time the blades rotate just a bit, there surfaces are now moving into an area of the wind that has not yet impacted the blades.
The propeller is not pushing air backwards against the oncoming wind.

Those like veritasium and Steve Mould are content creators, and often get things wrong.
Take the !mould effect! for example, where Steve claims that the chain fountain effect is due to the balls of the chain that are laying in the bowl, somehow is pushing the chain up higher and higher.
He even made it to Wikipedia with his claim lol. But the fact is, the chain rises due to inertia-nothing more.


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Brad,

I agreed with you until I stopped the video several times and looked at the angle of the blades.  They are turning the opposite direction from how they would be turning if the wind was turning them.  The wheels are turning the blades, not the wind.  The second video explains it better.

Carroll


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Tinman
Quote
The effect can be replicated with a flat sail, where the sail will travel down wind slower than the vehicle.
Every time the blades rotate just a bit, there surfaces are now moving into an area of the wind that has not yet impacted the blades.
The propeller is not pushing air backwards against the oncoming wind.

Think about what you just said,
"Every time the blades rotate just a bit, there surfaces are now moving into an area of the wind that has not yet impacted the blades".

That is true when the cart is below the wind speed but when the cart speed is equal to the wind speed... there is no wind. Thus there is nothing to impact the blades. Which is the reason why no drag based device can exceed the wind speed.

In fact it relates to a simple experiment anyone can do. Grab a stick and tie a piece of flexible yarn or string on it then jump in your truck and drive directly down wind with the stick out the window. When the yarn falls straight down your speedometer reading is the current wind speed. This proves that when our velocity directly down wind is equal to the wind speed there is in fact no wind.

So you seem to be barking up the wrong tree in my opinion.

AC


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Tinman
Think about what you just said,
"Every time the blades rotate just a bit, there surfaces are now moving into an area of the wind that has not yet impacted the blades".

That is true when the cart is below the wind speed but when the cart speed is equal to the wind speed... there is no wind. Thus there is nothing to impact the blades. Which is the reason why no drag based device can exceed the wind speed.

In fact it relates to a simple experiment anyone can do. Grab a stick and tie a piece of flexible yarn or string on it then jump in your truck and drive directly down wind with the stick out the window. When the yarn falls straight down your speedometer reading is the current wind speed. This proves that when our velocity directly down wind is equal to the wind speed there is in fact no wind.

So you seem to be barking up the wrong tree in my opinion.

AC

As I said, it is hard for most to understand, as they see the blades (sails) as being stationary, when in fact, they are rotating.
The angle and rotation of the blades means they are in effect being continually impacted by an area of the wind not yet stopped by the blades.

I will try and explain in a way that is easily understood.
Take a big long tub of butter (our wind). Now, you get a propeller, say from a boat engine.
You move the tub of butter down the road at say 10mph. You then rotate the propeller when submerged in the butter, so as it moves forward in the same direction the tub of butter is going down the road.
The propeller will now move forward down the road at a higher rate of speed than the tub of butter is going, due to the fact that the blades of the propeller are cutting into a new portion of the moving butter as it rotates. As every action has an equal and opposite reaction, the new portion of butter that continuously impacts the blades surface, is pushing on the blades just as much as the blades are pushing on the butter.

So, the wind is just a less dense fluid than the butter, but it still has the same working principle.
It does not matter that the wind is going slower than the vehicle, as the propeller blades will be continuously impacting a new portion of the wind that will push against the propeller blades.

To sum up
1- the vehicle is stationary
2-the wind pushes against the blades of the propeller
3-the vehicle starts to move
4- the moving vehicle then causes the propeller to rotate
5- the rotating propeller ensures that the blades are continually impaction a new portion of the wind
6- the wind is always pushing against the propeller, regardless of the fact that the vehicle itself is going faster than the wind, due to the angle of the blades, and their rotation into the new portion of the wind.
In effect, the blades surfaces (sails) are moving down wind slower than the wind, regardless of the fact that the vehicle is moving down wind faster than the wind.

The simple fact is, if the wind stops, so does the vehicle.
The vehicle does not make it's own wind to push against.


Brad


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Tinman
Think about what you just said,
"Every time the blades rotate just a bit, there surfaces are now moving into an area of the wind that has not yet impacted the blades".

That is true when the cart is below the wind speed but when the cart speed is equal to the wind speed... there is no wind. Thus there is nothing to impact the blades. Which is the reason why no drag based device can exceed the wind speed.

In fact it relates to a simple experiment anyone can do. Grab a stick and tie a piece of flexible yarn or string on it then jump in your truck and drive directly down wind with the stick out the window. When the yarn falls straight down your speedometer reading is the current wind speed. This proves that when our velocity directly down wind is equal to the wind speed there is in fact no wind.

So you seem to be barking up the wrong tree in my opinion.

AC

Hope the picture below explains it a little clearer.

Brad


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Tinman
Quote
To sum up
1- the vehicle is stationary
2-the wind pushes against the blades of the propeller
3-the vehicle starts to move
4- the moving vehicle then causes the propeller to rotate
5- the rotating propeller ensures that the blades are continually impaction a new portion of the wind
6- the wind is always pushing against the propeller, regardless of the fact that the vehicle itself is going faster than the wind, due to the angle of the blades, and their rotation into the new portion of the wind.
In effect, the blades surfaces (sails) are moving down wind slower than the wind, regardless of the fact that the vehicle is moving down wind faster than the wind.

I understand what your saying but think most would agree you have only explained something we already know.

When you say,
Quote
5- the rotating propeller ensures that the blades are continually impaction a new portion of the wind

This is no different than saying the wind does not flow through the propeller blades like a wind turbine and acts like an airplane prop. It's always cutting into new air ahead of the craft and moving it rearward just like an airplane.

This is confirmed by the next statement,
Quote
6- the wind is always pushing against the propeller, regardless of the fact that the vehicle itself is going faster than the wind, due to the angle of the blades, and their rotation into the new portion of the wind.
Yes, the propeller is pushing air rearward against the wind just like an airplane would flying down wind like so Wind>>> <<<Prop--vehicle.

In my mind what you just explained is obvious and was never in question. Within minutes of first seeing the DWFTTW setup it was obvious to me the prop must move air rearward against the wind to go faster than the wind.

The real question people want an answer to is...
1)It's obvious the extra energy which allows the craft to go faster than the wind comes from the wind. The wind is literally the only place the energy could come from. The question is how does this setup convert energy from the wind to make the craft go faster than the wind?.

2)So we have already established that the propeller cuts into new air ahead of the craft and moves it rearward just like an airplane. Thus the propeller cannot act like a sail any more than an airplane prop acts like a sail. Simply put, moving air acts on a sail while a propeller acts on moving air and they are not the same thing. The question is why do people claim the prop acts like a sail when we have already established the fact it cannot?.

AC


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Quote
author=Allcanadian link=topic=4672.msg112592#msg112592 date=1717254966

Quote
The question is why do people claim the prop acts like a sail when we have already established the fact it cannot?.

Who established this fact?
It is clear that the faces of the propeller are moving forward slower than the vehicle, in relation to the wind speed.

Quote
)So we have already established that the propeller cuts into new air ahead of the craft and moves it rearward just like an airplane.

No air is being pushed backward by the propeller.
That is the one mistake most make.
You can of course show me any evidence that the air is being pushed backward by the propeller.

Quote
So we have already established that the propeller cuts into new air ahead of the craft and moves it rearward just like an airplane. Thus the propeller cannot act like a sail any more than an airplane prop acts like a sail. Simply put, moving air acts on a sail while a propeller acts on moving air and they are not the same thing.

The fact is no that at all. The propeller on a plane is driven by an engine-the source of energy turning it.
The propeller on the blackbird is powered by the wind pushing on it, not by the propeller pushing wind back against the wind that created the energy in the first place.
You are basically saying that we can send 12 volts from a battery, through some kind of circuit, and then that circuit can send say 15 volts back into the battery continually. Not going to happen.
The blades on the propeller can never push back against the wind harder than the wind pushing on the blades.

Quote
The question is how does this setup convert energy from the wind to make the craft go faster than the wind?.

I have answered that question.
The faces of the blades are moving down wind slower than the vehicle.
How can your foot pushing a pedal on a bike go slower than the road passing under it?
All to do with gearing and blade pitch angle

I have shown you exactly how the surface of the blades move slower down wind than the vehicle, and that is exactly how it works.


Brad


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Tinman
Quote
No air is being pushed backward by the propeller.
That is the one mistake most make.
You can of course show me any evidence that the air is being pushed backward by the propeller.

ChatGPT
Question: is the propeller of the DWFTTW craft blowing air rearward against the wind?.

Answer: Yes, that's correct. In a DWFTTW craft, the propeller or turbine is indeed blowing air rearward against the wind. This might seem paradoxical at first, but it's a crucial aspect of how these vehicles operate.

Confirmation question: is the wind blowing through the propeller of the DWFTTW craft.

Answer: No, in a Downwind Faster Than the Wind (DWFTTW) craft, the wind is not blowing through the propeller. Instead, the propeller is driven by the airspeed generated by the motion of the craft relative to the wind.

https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/ApMech_p056/mechanical-engineering/impossible-wind-powered-car
Quote
However, the behavior is actually the opposite: the drag force from the wind on the body of the car pushes it forward, spinning the wheels. The wheels are connected to the propeller with gears and chains, causing it to spin and act like a fan: it blows air backwards and pushes the car forward (due to Newton's third law of motion).

Quote
You are basically saying that we can send 12 volts from a battery, through some kind of circuit, and then that circuit can send say 15 volts back into the battery continually. Not going to happen.
The blades on the propeller can never push back against the wind harder than the wind pushing on the blades.

You just fell into the same logic trap as everyone else assuming this must violate the COE which we know is not true. As ChatGPT said, This might seem paradoxical at first and it does which is why literally everyone came to the wrong conclusion. In fact the false assumption you just made is why DWFTTW generated so much controversy and went viral in the first place. The website article below touches on this subject...

https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/ApMech_p056/mechanical-engineering/impossible-wind-powered-car
Quote
Either way, you might expect it to be impossible for this vehicle to go faster than the wind. Wouldn't that violate the law of conservation of energy? YouTube is full of bogus claims about perpetual motion machines—is this just another hoax? Or, could there be some fundamental errors in the experiment and data collection that just made it seem like Blackbird was traveling faster than the wind?

So all the controversy came about because right of the bat everyone made a number of false assumptions ...
1)They falsely assumed the wind must be blowing through the propeller like a sail. It does not, the propeller is blowing air rearward against the wind in the opposite direction everyone assumed.

2) They falsely assumed that because the cart is moving faster than the wind it must be a perpetual motion machine and violate the conservation of energy. Apparently everything, no matter how simple, people don't understand must violate the COE, lol.

Simply put, congratulations your normal and you made all the same mistakes 99% of other people did.

AC














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“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Tinman
ChatGPT
Question: is the propeller of the DWFTTW craft blowing air rearward against the wind?.

Answer: Yes, that's correct. In a DWFTTW craft, the propeller or turbine is indeed blowing air rearward against the wind. This might seem paradoxical at first, but it's a crucial aspect of how these vehicles operate.

Confirmation question: is the wind blowing through the propeller of the DWFTTW craft.

Answer: No, in a Downwind Faster Than the Wind (DWFTTW) craft, the wind is not blowing through the propeller. Instead, the propeller is driven by the airspeed generated by the motion of the craft relative to the wind.

https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/ApMech_p056/mechanical-engineering/impossible-wind-powered-car
You just fell into the same logic trap as everyone else assuming this must violate the COE which we know is not true. As ChatGPT said, This might seem paradoxical at first and it does which is why literally everyone came to the wrong conclusion. In fact the false assumption you just made is why DWFTTW generated so much controversy and went viral in the first place. The website article below touches on this subject...

https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/ApMech_p056/mechanical-engineering/impossible-wind-powered-car
So all the controversy came about because right of the bat everyone made a number of false assumptions ...
1)They falsely assumed the wind must be blowing through the propeller like a sail. It does not, the propeller is blowing air rearward against the wind in the opposite direction everyone assumed.

2) They falsely assumed that because the cart is moving faster than the wind it must be a perpetual motion machine and violate the conservation of energy. Apparently everything, no matter how simple, people don't understand must violate the COE, lol.

Simply put, congratulations your normal and you made all the same mistakes 99% of other people did.

AC

Congratulation on waking up. There is nothing inheritably special about blackbird or the air that pushes it forward if you understand that anything that has a "soft" and "hard" medium can do this. Its a rotational lever that produces relative motion only based on rigid body dynamics which we perceive as "kinetic" energy or "potential" energy but reduces to just circles and lines interacting at their tangent points :).

However all the system needs is a "kick", a "big bang", a lightning strike, an initial heart beat or the proverbial "touch of god" to get things rolling.
   

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Tinman
ChatGPT
Question: is the propeller of the DWFTTW craft blowing air rearward against the wind?.

Answer: Yes, that's correct. In a DWFTTW craft, the propeller or turbine is indeed blowing air rearward against the wind. This might seem paradoxical at first, but it's a crucial aspect of how these vehicles operate.

Confirmation question: is the wind blowing through the propeller of the DWFTTW craft.

Answer: No, in a Downwind Faster Than the Wind (DWFTTW) craft, the wind is not blowing through the propeller. Instead, the propeller is driven by the airspeed generated by the motion of the craft relative to the wind.

https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/ApMech_p056/mechanical-engineering/impossible-wind-powered-car
You just fell into the same logic trap as everyone else assuming this must violate the COE which we know is not true. As ChatGPT said, This might seem paradoxical at first and it does which is why literally everyone came to the wrong conclusion. In fact the false assumption you just made is why DWFTTW generated so much controversy and went viral in the first place. The website article below touches on this subject...

https://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project-ideas/ApMech_p056/mechanical-engineering/impossible-wind-powered-car
So all the controversy came about because right of the bat everyone made a number of false assumptions ...
1)They falsely assumed the wind must be blowing through the propeller like a sail. It does not, the propeller is blowing air rearward against the wind in the opposite direction everyone assumed.

2) They falsely assumed that because the cart is moving faster than the wind it must be a perpetual motion machine and violate the conservation of energy. Apparently everything, no matter how simple, people don't understand must violate the COE, lol.

Simply put, congratulations your normal and you made all the same mistakes 99% of other people did.

AC

The last thing i would be doing, is asking chatGPT for anything.
It will give you any answer you seek.
It is great at repeating the same mistakes others make.

Example--


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Tinman

I want to tell you more and explain exactly how the DWFTTW tech works but cannot at the moment. I'm presently designing wind turbines based on the concept, plan on making some video's and writing a science paper.

It's not rocket science, when few if any can understand a technology and think it is impossible the greater it's value. There is actually a ratio where the inherent worth of a technology rises exponentially faster than it's difficulty to understand. Similar to why FE is considered priceless because nobody can seem to understand it.

Wind power is a no brainier in my opinion and where a FE device could get us killed a revolutionary new wind turbine could make us wealthy.

AC


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   Good point, Chet!
" Empirical evidence always rules the day,"

I totally agree!
Steve
   
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I just want to ask a question to help me see and understand different perspectives.

QUESTION-  In the image below-  it is not harvesting from the wind, it is using the drive belt.  The wheels are turning counter-clockwise as the drive belt turns clockwise.  When the car is traveling forward, the wheels are assisting the belt, thus taking load off the driving motor.

If there was no losses from friction and we took off the propeller, the wheels match the speed of the belt, so there will be no movement of the car. Similar to AC's example of hanging string out the car window.

Now we add the propeller.  Now the belt now must exert extra energy to move the propeller.  Now the propeller is oriented in a way which pushes the car forward. 

As I see it, just considering the belt and propeller, we have a 1:1 balance (assuming no losses).  We are drawing enough power from the belt to create  "work" of turning a propeller. 

Now the propeller pulls the car forward.  But the wheels on the car are rotating in the direction which returns the energy it took to move the car back to the belt.  The wheels rotating in that direction actually push the rotating belt in the same direction it is going in the first place, thus taking load off the treadmill.

So it seems to me-  we pay for the power to drive the fan to push the car- and the car draws energy from the fan to move.  All 1:1 so far.  But then the amazing part happens.  The car is designed to transfer the equal and opposite reaction back to the treadmill drive belt through the wheels (that takes some load off the drive motor) which is equal to the energy the car imparted onto the fan to create the motion.

Since the car takes energy from the fan, then returns the energy to the drivebelt-  we spend money driving a fan with input power. We get the movement of air equal to the input BUT the movement of the car comes free. The very energy that was taken from the fan to move the car gets returned to the belt to alleviate the extra load from the input of moving the car.

of course I understand real-world builds have losses. This is all assuming a setup with no losses for ease of evaluation
   
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Another way to say it:

Fans need a base that can withstand the force of the moving air so the fan does not fall over from the force.  So power of the moving air creates a torque equally strong that gets transferred to the fan's base. (newtons 3rd law)

This system leverages that wasted torque on the fan's base by converting it to rotational energy to assist driving the fan.
   

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This system leverages that wasted torque on the fan's base by converting it to rotational energy to assist driving the fan.
How is this different from if the propeller were fixed to the ground ?   ( wind generator)
   
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How is this different from if the propeller were fixed to the ground ?   ( wind generator)

Windmill harvests wind energy. Equal amount of energy is exerted onto the windmill mast or Mount. The torque applied to the mount gets wasted.

This setup harvests that energy to create motion. It causes some sacrifice to the propeller speed at first. But then the wheels give the sacrifice back because the wheels are turning quicker than the treadmill in the direction that takes strain off the treadmill source.

Action- equal and opposite reaction

Two opposite actions - two opposite equal and opposite reactions.

Equal and opposite reaction will benefit opposite action.

Because the opposite of the opposite is the same.


   

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I just want to ask a question to help me see and understand different perspectives.

QUESTION-  In the image below-  it is not harvesting from the wind, it is using the drive belt.  The wheels are turning counter-clockwise as the drive belt turns clockwise.  When the car is traveling forward, the wheels are assisting the belt, thus taking load off the driving motor.

If there was no losses from friction and we took off the propeller, the wheels match the speed of the belt, so there will be no movement of the car. Similar to AC's example of hanging string out the car window.

Now we add the propeller.  Now the belt now must exert extra energy to move the propeller.  Now the propeller is oriented in a way which pushes the car forward. 

As I see it, just considering the belt and propeller, we have a 1:1 balance (assuming no losses).  We are drawing enough power from the belt to create  "work" of turning a propeller. 

Now the propeller pulls the car forward.  But the wheels on the car are rotating in the direction which returns the energy it took to move the car back to the belt.  The wheels rotating in that direction actually push the rotating belt in the same direction it is going in the first place, thus taking load off the treadmill.

So it seems to me-  we pay for the power to drive the fan to push the car- and the car draws energy from the fan to move.  All 1:1 so far.  But then the amazing part happens.  The car is designed to transfer the equal and opposite reaction back to the treadmill drive belt through the wheels (that takes some load off the drive motor) which is equal to the energy the car imparted onto the fan to create the motion.

Since the car takes energy from the fan, then returns the energy to the drivebelt-  we spend money driving a fan with input power. We get the movement of air equal to the input BUT the movement of the car comes free. The very energy that was taken from the fan to move the car gets returned to the belt to alleviate the extra load from the input of moving the car.

of course I understand real-world builds have losses. This is all assuming a setup with no losses for ease of evaluation

And this is where most make their mistake.
The example of the tread mill vehicles.
The propeller is not pushing wind faster out the back than the speed the belt on the tread mill is traveling in the same direction.
The propeller is pushing against a static collum of air, and is shifting just enough air to overcome the force of gravity, and small amount of friction, so as the vehicle moves up the incline.

So in relation, the propeller is moving through the area of air at a much slower rate than the vehicles/ground speed relationship.
The very same happens with the DWFTTW vehicle, where the propellers surfaces are going down wind at a much slower rate than the vehicle is going down wind.
This is a hard concept for most to understand, as we have seen, and even some of those !experts! have made the same wrong conclusion on how the DWFTTW vehicle works.

They are telling us that the wind that pushes against the blades of the propeller (which is what powers the vehicle), is no longer needed once the vehicle starts moving at a certain speed.
They see the propeller moving down wind faster than the wind, and come to a false conclusion-as we have seen many times.
They are basically saying we could power a circuit with a constant 12 volts from a battery, and once that circuit is up and running, it can push a constant 15 volts back into the battery. I would love to see that  :D
They get confused between the propeller as a whole, traveling down wind faster than the wind, and what speed the rotating faces of the blades are actually traveling at in relation to the wind speed.
Angular velocity completely eludes them in this case.


Brad


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Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

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Buy me some coffee
Below is a diagram showing the working principles of the DWFTTW vehicle.
It is exactly the same as a sail boat or sail board tacking across the wind, and traveling faster than the wind.
But rather than the sail moving in a linear fashion at an angle across the wind, the sail is rotated, so as it can move at an angle across the wind, going straight down wind.
As the blades cut into the wind at an angle, pressure builds up on the back surface of the blade, and decreases on the front surface of the blade.
This pressure differential applies the force that pushes the vehicle down wind faster than the wind, which is exactly how it works with sail boats and the likes.
The propeller does not push wind backwards faster than the wind speed powering the vehicle.
In order for wind to be pushed backwards, it would have to exceed the forward wind speed.
We would then not need the wind at all, and could have self propelled vehicles.

Brad


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Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   
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Below is a diagram showing the working principles of the DWFTTW vehicle.
It is exactly the same as a sail boat or sail board tacking across the wind, and traveling faster than the wind.
But rather than the sail moving in a linear fashion at an angle across the wind, the sail is rotated, so as it can move at an angle across the wind, going straight down wind.
As the blades cut into the wind at an angle, pressure builds up on the back surface of the blade, and decreases on the front surface of the blade.
This pressure differential applies the force that pushes the vehicle down wind faster than the wind, which is exactly how it works with sail boats and the likes.
The propeller does not push wind backwards faster than the wind speed powering the vehicle.
In order for wind to be pushed backwards, it would have to exceed the forward wind speed.
We would then not need the wind at all, and could have self propelled vehicles.

Brad

You fell in the same mind trap as the "physicists" you battle against. If you dont understand blackbird you will keep chasing dragons even in your own work. 
   
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"The propeller is not pushing wind faster out the back than the speed the belt on the tread mill is traveling in the same direction."

Although I disagree with your theory, I do not disagree with this statement.

I would say it is not pushing it out "Faster", but is pushing a larger volume of air. 

Think of a windmill.  We can design it for Torque or Speed.  The larger area the windmill blades cover, the more power it can harvest.  On both the small scale model and the read prototype, the propeller is pretty large in comparison to the car. Speed (voltage) is only one aspect of power. We also have Volume (current).

The DWFTTW can can reach speeds in excess of Double the wind speed.
   
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Posts: 143
...
 Speed (voltage) is only one aspect of power. We also have Volume (current).
...

A correct analogy would be (power, pressure, volume flow rate) to (power, voltage, current) to (power, force, velocity).
bi
   
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