On the notion of a magnetic motor

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2024-11-28, 08:05:32
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TinMan	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #100 on: 2024-05-13, 09:21:01 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: picowatt on 2024-05-13, 05:28:10 Are you still adhering to the ideas of orbital alignment and domains within the PM? PW Quote You reference "+/- charges", are you referring to electrical charges? As stated a fw times now throughout this thread, no, i am not referring to electrical charges as we know them. If they were electrical charges, we would know what the magnetic field is. In the field that exists around the PM body, and all space, i believe there exists some other form of charges, which are mixed together, so as the field is in a neutral state. But when in the presence of a PM that has been magnetized, these mixed charges are separated, and that separation of charges is what we see as the magnetic field it self. Quote I must admit, your field gradient drawing and the explanation above leaves me more confused than ever as to what it is you envision going on in and around a PM. What changed within the PM material when we magnetized it, causes what changed in the field around the PM body. The two are related, but they are not one in the same. There is no cloud of electrons in space, around the PM body, for it to be the same as that which took place within the PM body when it was magnetized. Cause-the magnetic domains within the PM material were aligned. Effect- A charge separation took place in the local field around the PM body. The thing that is hard for most to do, is get the notion that the electrical charge that we know of, is the only kind of charge, out of their head. We did not know about electrical charge until we discovered it. Quote If you were to draw vectors and field lines around the magnet in the gradient.jpg, what would they look like? I will take some time later on tonight, and draw that up for you. I will also redraw the 3 coil position test, and show you why it does not work using the single field theory, but only with the two field theory. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

Smudge	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #101 on: 2024-05-13, 11:20:38 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1940	If I may chip in on this conversation, Brad's concept of clouds of mixtures of some undefined particles that each has either a + or a - fixed value (like our concept of point charges) occupying space to describe a magnetic field, that concept could be valid for describing the magnetic scalar potential. The scalar potential represents the field's capability of doing work, and maybe that is Brad's definition of what a field really is. It doesn't tell you in which direction the work would take place which is where vector direction comes into play. Take Brad's cloud of his "charges", if the mixture charge-density wrt to any distance through space is uniform there is nothing to define a direction. But if the mixture charge-density is not uniform then the gradient of the density along any line is a vector that has magnitude and direction and we could call that a magnetic field line. So Brad's concept is valid, but he needs to understand that it has two different expressions to be seen visually printed on paper. The standard field image that Brad says is wrong is one view (the mixture charge-density gradient at any point in space). The field image that Brad says is correct is the other view (the mixture charge-density value at any point in space). Both images are correct. Note that the manner in which iron filings arrange themselves to look like field lines for one of the images is fully explainable. Smudge

TinMan	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #102 on: 2024-05-13, 12:32:12 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: picowatt on 2024-05-13, 05:28:10 I must admit, your field gradient drawing and the explanation above leaves me more confused than ever as to what it is you envision going on in and around a PM. Are you still adhering to the ideas of orbital alignment and domains within the PM? You reference "+/- charges", are you referring to electrical charges? If you were to draw vectors and field lines around the magnet in the gradient.jpg, what would they look like? PW Ok, i have drawn up a bit of diagram, and hope it is clear enough to understand. The field gradient, using vector lines, along with varying size arrows to depict the gradient of each field. So, we start from say the negative (south) side of the magnet, and as we get closer to the other side of the magnet(north side), the negative charge decreases in a linear fashion. The same applies for the positive charge( north field) as it gets closer to the !south! end of the magnet. This means at the center, between the two poles of the magnet, the net charge value is 0, and as we move from the center, in either direction toward the poles, the net charge value increases to either positive or negative, depending on which pole you are moving toward. The same applies with my carbon resister example, where the center of the carbon resistor would have a net charge value of 0, and increase to either a negative or positive value as you move from the center, out toward the ends of the carbon resistor. I have also added two more diagrams, along with a description on why the single field theory does not work, and why the two field theory does. Bad ------------------------ On the notion of a magnetic motor single field theory 1.JPG (129.56 kB, 904x777 - viewed 356 times.) On the notion of a magnetic motor Two field theory 1A.JPG (102.05 kB, 850x751 - viewed 303 times.) On the notion of a magnetic motor FIELD GRADIENT 1.bmp (778.49 kB, 626x424 - viewed 258 times.) --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

TinMan	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #103 on: 2024-05-13, 12:36:13 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: Smudge on 2024-05-13, 11:20:38 If I may chip in on this conversation, Brad's concept of clouds of mixtures of some undefined particles that each has either a + or a - fixed value (like our concept of point charges) occupying space to describe a magnetic field, that concept could be valid for describing the magnetic scalar potential. The scalar potential represents the field's capability of doing work, and maybe that is Brad's definition of what a field really is. It doesn't tell you in which direction the work would take place which is where vector direction comes into play. Take Brad's cloud of his "charges", if the mixture charge-density wrt to any distance through space is uniform there is nothing to define a direction. But if the mixture charge-density is not uniform then the gradient of the density along any line is a vector that has magnitude and direction and we could call that a magnetic field line. So Brad's concept is valid, but he needs to understand that it has two different expressions to be seen visually printed on paper. The standard field image that Brad says is wrong is one view (the mixture charge-density gradient at any point in space). The field image that Brad says is correct is the other view (the mixture charge-density value at any point in space). Both images are correct. Note that the manner in which iron filings arrange themselves to look like field lines for one of the images is fully explainable. Smudge Hi Smudge. I welcome your input--thank you. Below are two diagrams, which explain as to which direction the work would take place--or the way i think it would anyway. Brad ------------------------ On the notion of a magnetic motor single field theory 1.JPG (129.56 kB, 904x777 - viewed 273 times.) On the notion of a magnetic motor Two field theory 1A.JPG (102.05 kB, 850x751 - viewed 249 times.) --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

bistander	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #104 on: 2024-05-13, 13:09:46 »
Full Member Posts: 143	Tinman, Smudge, Thank you for the explanations you offer. Can you explain the application of Lorentz force equation with the current carrying wire attraction to the midpoint as demonstrated in experiment of which was the start of this discussion? Shown here: https://youtu.be/F2JFDpTE_ls?si=XfJo546MqBvutyVY This phenomenon appears eloquently explained using the classic single field theory and FEMM field maps. I fail to see how Tinman's diagrams of lines and arrows could apply to this case. If I understand Smudge, Tinman's theory may have some validity, but the classic theory which I used is not wrong, as Tinman insist. Regards, bi

partzman	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #105 on: 2024-05-13, 14:10:59 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1808	Quote from: poynt99 on 2024-05-13, 03:50:31 The net induced voltage in the centre coil is nil because the positive-induced and negative-induced voltages are simultaneous, equal in amplitude, but in opposite polarity, and therefore they cancel each other out. The two outside coils however experience an imbalanced positive and negative induced voltage, and therefore the net induced voltage in each case is non-zero, and opposite in polarity to each other. - There is no null zone in the middle of a magnet. - Maximum induced voltage is achieved by aligning the magnet axis and coil core axis end-to-end - Minimum induced voltage is achieved by aligning the magnet and coil core axis as per your middle coil's configuration (perpendicular and in the middle) I would have to agree with Poynt that his explanation fits all the experiments I have performed on this scenario. I too have concluded that the outside coil positions when held in the same plane, are exposed to two opposite vector angles thus producing the opposite mmf's in the outside coils. Therefore, the center coil sees the nulled result from each of the N/S vectors. I also see how the wire centering to the middle of the PM is caused by the Lorentz force from the symmetrical curved flux referenced to the vertical center of the PM. For me, mystery solved. Also, the best view IMO of the activity around a PM would be taken from a flat crt screen. I mean our measurement media in this case would be electrons instead of iron filings or iron oxide in ferro-fluids, correct? If one looks for viewing using crt's, they appear to exhibit the conventional flux patterns commonly accepted. However, there also appears to be other anomalies which I don't understand. Regards, Pm

TinMan	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #106 on: 2024-05-13, 14:32:52 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote author=partzman link=topic=4661.msg112126#msg112126 date=1715605859 Regards, Pm [/quote] Quote I too have concluded that the outside coil positions when held in the same plane, are exposed to two opposite vector angles thus producing the opposite mmf's in the outside coils. Therefore, the center coil sees the nulled result from each of the N/S vectors. So using the single field theory, and looking at the diagram below, you believe that we should see 0 EMF across all coils, due to the two outside coils now having the same field vector angles as the center coil has? This means that you would also believe that the ferromagnetic material of the coils core, will have no effect on those field vector angles as the magnet gets closer to the core of the coils? I find it hard to believe that anyone would believe that the field vectors would remain the same, when the field is being distorted toward the ferromagnetic material of the coil cores. Brad ------------------------ On the notion of a magnetic motor single field theory 1.JPG (129.56 kB, 904x777 - viewed 108 times.) --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

partzman	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #107 on: 2024-05-13, 14:34:50 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1808	Quote from: TinMan on 2024-05-13, 03:39:52 Hi PM I wonder what would happen if you set up a simple reed switch circuit, where you would have a battery or power supply, an LED, and the reed switch, and moved that reed switch along the length of stacked magnet? Would the reed switch open, causing the LED to go out, when it got to the center of the stacked magnets?, which would indicate no net field at the center of the magnet stack-or single magnet if you have a long bar or rod magnet. I would try it my self, but i am 1000Km from home, on vacation. Do you have a reed switch to carry out such an experiment? Brad Brad, Oops, I missed this post. I know I have reed switches somewhere but I can't seem to find them at the moment. Will keep looking! Regards, Pm

partzman	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #108 on: 2024-05-13, 14:55:37 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1808	Quote from: TinMan on 2024-05-13, 14:32:52 Regards, Pm So using the single field theory, and looking at the diagram below, you believe that we should see 0 EMF across all coils, due to the two outside coils now having the same field vector angles as the center coil has? If the coils in your diagram were parallel to each other rather than their axis being tangent to the field vectors, I would say no. The outside coils would have opposite EMF's. With your configuration, the EMF's would still be opposite but greater in value with the maximum EMF's measured with the coils centered at the pole ends as Poynt stated . In all cases, the center coil would have near zero EMF. Quote This means that you would also believe that the ferromagnetic material of the coils core, will have no effect on those field vector angles as the magnet gets closer to the core of the coils? I find it hard to believe that anyone would believe that the field vectors would remain the same, when the field is being distorted toward the ferromagnetic material of the coil cores. No, I would have to agree that the cores should affect the vector angles simply because the cores provide a lower magnetic resistance than air but have never attempted to test for confirmation. Quote Brad

picowatt	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #109 on: 2024-05-13, 16:16:52 »
Sr. Member Posts: 453	Quote from: TinMan on 2024-05-13, 12:32:12 Ok, i have drawn up a bit of diagram, and hope it is clear enough to understand. The field gradient, using vector lines, along with varying size arrows to depict the gradient of each field. So, we start from say the negative (south) side of the magnet, and as we get closer to the other side of the magnet(north side), the negative charge decreases in a linear fashion. The same applies for the positive charge( north field) as it gets closer to the !south! end of the magnet. In the FIELD GRADIENT 1.BMP, are you suggesting that the magnetic field reverses polarity on each side of the "null" in the middle as depicted by your red and blue arrows? PW « Last Edit: 2024-05-13, 17:18:52 by picowatt »

TinMan	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #110 on: 2024-05-14, 01:57:44 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: picowatt on 2024-05-13, 16:16:52 In the FIELD GRADIENT 1.BMP, are you suggesting that the magnetic field reverses polarity on each side of the "null" in the middle as depicted by your red and blue arrows? PW That is correct. As discussed before, the magnetic field itself, is a result of some form of charge separation taking place around the PM body when the PM body is magnetized. The magnetic field already existed in a neutral state around the PM body- and all space, before the PM material was magnetized. Once the PM was magnetized, a separation of some form took place in this existing field, which gave rise to what we call the magnetic field. It is much the same as a capacitor, where when discharged, the volume of electrons on each plate is the same- in a neutral state. But when we charge the capacitor, and separate the charges on the plates, we then get an electric field between the plates, due to 1 plate having a positive charge, and the other a negative charge. These two plates will now be attracted to each other. Now, if two plates have the same charge, they would be repelled by each other. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

partzman	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #111 on: 2024-05-14, 15:45:23 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1808	The following link is to a video produced by UFOPolitics and I have a question regarding it. I'm especially curious as to what the opinions here are for the effect he shows starting at the 17:40 mark? The deflection of the electron beam is caused by what? https://youtu.be/l7OzMURRU_k Regards, Pm

Allcanadian	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #112 on: 2024-05-14, 16:30:35 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2735	The neutral point concept isn't that difficult to understand and there are many simple experiments to prove it. Find a bar magnet and move a small piece of iron along the side wall but not touching it. The metal is strongly attracted to each end pole but there is no force at the exact center and the iron appears demagnetized. This is because the force is pulling to each end pole equally resulting in zero force. I know this neutral point phenomena well because my magnetic attraction bearing is literally based on it. At the exact center of the field between the poles the forces and polarity neutralize each other. Now break the magnet into two equal halves or use two smaller magnets. Now each half has it's own neutral point and a new one is produced between the two magnets. Now break each half in half so we have quarters. Each quarter magnet has it's own neutral point and there are now three new neutral points in between the four magnets. I find it very strange that such a simple concept could have eluded so many people for so long. In fact it can be found in any grade school textbook under the section called "induced magnetism". AC --------------------------- Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

picowatt	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #113 on: 2024-05-14, 17:02:49 »
Sr. Member Posts: 453	Quote from: TinMan on 2024-05-13, 12:32:12 Ok, i have drawn up a bit of diagram, and hope it is clear enough to understand. The field gradient, using vector lines, along with varying size arrows to depict the gradient of each field. So, we start from say the negative (south) side of the magnet, and as we get closer to the other side of the magnet(north side), the negative charge decreases in a linear fashion. The same applies for the positive charge( north field) as it gets closer to the !south! end of the magnet. This means at the center, between the two poles of the magnet, the net charge value is 0, and as we move from the center, in either direction toward the poles, the net charge value increases to either positive or negative, depending on which pole you are moving toward. The same applies with my carbon resister example, where the center of the carbon resistor would have a net charge value of 0, and increase to either a negative or positive value as you move from the center, out toward the ends of the carbon resistor. I have also added two more diagrams, along with a description on why the single field theory does not work, and why the two field theory does. Bad Brad, I misunderstood your "three coils and a magnet" drawing/experiment. I thought the magnet was being moved left and right. I now understand that you mean that the magnet is to be moved from behind the screen to in front of the screen. If the field around the magnet was as simple as is drawn in your posted "three coil images", and the magnetic field is considered as having only one plane as drawn, no induction would occur in all three coils if the coils could be arranged such that the field vectors/lines intersect the coils perpendicular to the long axis of the coils. However, the depiction of the field in your drawings is too simplistic to reveal why the outer coils produce opposite polarities and why there is minimal induction in the center coil when the proposed three coil experiment is performed. If you overlay your three coils in the field depicted by bistander (reply#30,Screenshot_20240414-155537-234.png"), you will see a more accurate representation of the field around a magnet and its interaction with the coils. With the three coils positioned in that more accurate depiction, place vector arrows wherever a field line intersects the coils. You will see that only in the center coil do the field lines pass thru the coil, for the most part, perpendicular to the coil's long axis, which produces minimal induction. Where the field lines strike the center coil at slightly non-perpendicular angles, the vectors and lines are opposite and symmetrical on either side of the coil, and therefore tend to cancel out. Anywhere you position a coil oriented as in your image between the center of the magnet and its N pole, the vectors impinging upon the coil will be generally pointing toward the face of the coil at varying angles of incidence. Anywhere you position a coil oriented as in your image between the center of the magnet and its S pole, the vectors impinging upon the coil will be generally pointing away from the face of the coil at varying angles of incidence. With the vectors intersecting the face of the coils in opposite directions on either side of center, any induction produced by the two coils on opposite sides of center will have opposite polarities. Keep in mind that the field is actually three dimensional so in a real world experiment, one must also consider that the field strength and the angles at which the vectors impinge on the coils will vary as the magnet approaches and then recedes from the coils. PW ------------------------ single field theory 1.png (27.7 kB, 150x128 - viewed 181 times.) Screenshot_20240414-155537-234.png (38.66 kB, 150x123 - viewed 188 times.) « Last Edit: 2024-05-14, 19:20:40 by picowatt »

lfarrand	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #114 on: 2024-05-14, 18:47:45 »
Sr. Member Posts: 271	Quote from: picowatt on 2024-05-11, 23:53:45 (I really like the color changing viewing film. It clears itself instantly when the magnet is removed, without leaving remnant smudges as often happens with the green stuff. The ones I have came laminated in fairly rigid plastic with a nice case to boot...) Thanks for the pointer. I ordered some MX-Film (manufactured by Nanobrick Co., Ltd in Korea) and it just arrived today. The difference in fidelity compared to the standard green magnetic viewing film is night & day.

Allcanadian	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #115 on: 2024-05-14, 19:27:10 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2735	picowatt Quote If the field around the magnet was as simple as is drawn in your posted "three coil images", and the magnetic field is considered as having only one plane as drawn, no induction would occur in all three coils if the coils could be arranged such that the field vectors/lines intersect the coils perpendicular to the long axis of the coils. However, the depiction of the field in your drawings is to simplistic to reveal why the outer coils produce opposite polarities and why there is minimal induction in the center coil when the proposed three coil experiment is performed. We could also use the basic laws of induced magnetism which I believe is taught around grade 7 in most schools. I drew the picture below to show how a bar magnet always induces a magnetic field of equal and opposite polarity in any nearby iron cores. As we can see we do not need any arrows, lines or loops to determine what is happening and why. We can also see how easy and intuitive the concept of induced magnetism is. The bar magnet always induces an equal and opposite field polarity in any iron cores external to it and everything else can be deduced from this. So of course, it becomes obvious why the center iron core in Tinman's model does not produce an electric current. It's because the induced field polarity in the center core is horizontal to the core. Where in order to produce electro-magnetic induction in the core coil it would have to be polarized vertical to the core. Now that we understand how induced magnetism works we can move on to one of the many anomalies present. As we can plainly see the center core is polarized equal and opposite to the bar magnet as expected. As such most would assume the core should be attracted to the bar magnet but in reality it is not. An iron core is attracted to every other area of the bar magnet but there is no attraction force at the exact center of the bar magnet. As a general rule any iron core having a width under 1/8 the width of the magnet is not attracted where cores over 1/4 the width have some attraction. In every other case the iron core is polarized equal and opposite to the bar magnet causing an attractive force but not at the center or neutral plane. At the center the iron core can become demagnetized which should not be the case. Of course, you and many others would never know this because a person would have to do a real experiment to detect the anomaly. You see, this is the reason why most FE inventors like Wesley Gary or Howard Johnson were able to do what they did. Everything was hands on doing countless hours of real experiments to determine what the real facts are. AC ------------------------ On the notion of a magnetic motor induced magnetism.jpg (40.5 kB, 1016x543 - viewed 112 times.) --------------------------- Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

bistander	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #116 on: 2024-05-14, 19:37:57 »
Full Member Posts: 143	Quote from: partzman on 2024-05-14, 15:45:23 The following link is to a video produced by UFOPolitics and I have a question regarding it. I'm especially curious as to what the opinions here are for the effect he shows starting at the 17:40 mark? The deflection of the electron beam is caused by what? https://youtu.be/l7OzMURRU_k Regards, Pm Hi Pm, See attached diagram. It is a view from above. The green arrows represent moving charges from the electron gun, which, without the magnet, would sweep back and forth in the plane of the screen. The red arrows represent the magnetic field, B vectors intersecting the charge. The charge's velocity vector is in the direction of the green arrows. So the cross product, B×qv=F, Lorentz force vector. Applying the right hand rule will show the charge deflection direction, up left side of the CRT and down right side, as per video. Just an application of Lorentz force law. bi ------------------------ On the notion of a magnetic motor Polish_20240514_134837823.jpg (318.37 kB, 1892x1152 - viewed 106 times.) On the notion of a magnetic motor Screenshot_20240415-141124-155.png (16.84 kB, 246x218 - viewed 90 times.)

picowatt	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #117 on: 2024-05-14, 19:44:05 »
Sr. Member Posts: 453	AC, What is it with you and Brad drawing straight angular/diagonal lines through the body of a magnet to depict something about the magnet's magnetization? Surely this is not to be taken literally. Personally I find such drawings to be confusing and unlike anything I would imagine going on inside a magnet. It just doesn't seem "natural"... Is this some recently accepted drawing convention related to a PM I have never seen before? PW

Allcanadian	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #118 on: 2024-05-14, 22:39:09 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2735	picowatt Quote What is it with you and Brad drawing straight angular/diagonal lines through the body of a magnet to depict something about the magnet's magnetization? Surely this is not to be taken literally. Personally I find such drawings to be confusing and unlike anything I would imagine going on inside a magnet. It just doesn't seem "natural"... Unlike some myself and Brad are not simply copying and pasting someone else's work. Were drawing the pictures ourselves to convey a thought or concept from our own perspective like any true artisan would. As a creative and open minded person I find it very confusing that you find the pictures confusing. So in my last post I had a choice to simply copy and paste or do it myself. I chose to draw it myself because I'm obviously not like you nor should I be. Consider my picture below, I thought it was obvious I'm only looking at the most basic magnetic polarization through the material and little else. Like a binary view of the polarization focusing on what's important ie. the polarization. We should always focus on what is important and discard what is not. Quote Is this some recently accepted drawing convention related to a PM I have never seen before? Ah, the argument for conformity. I developed my own forms of notation because I thought the present forms were primitive and ambiguous. It begs the question, why wouldn't we?. So if what were doing does not yield the results we want why wouldn't we try to change it?. I mean, if conformity leads to failure then I want no part of it my friend. AC ------------------------ On the notion of a magnetic motor induced magnetism.jpg (40.5 kB, 1016x543 - viewed 87 times.) --------------------------- Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

picowatt	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #119 on: 2024-05-14, 23:09:52 »
Sr. Member Posts: 453	Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-05-14, 22:39:09 picowatt Unlike some myself and Brad are not simply copying and pasting someone else's work. ... I wasn't being flippant, my questions were sincere... So, the short answer is, the drawings are not to be taken literally, and no, they are not some new drawing convention regarding the internal structure of a PM. Thanks... PW

TinMan	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #120 on: 2024-05-15, 02:27:39 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: picowatt on 2024-05-14, 17:02:49 Brad, I misunderstood your "three coils and a magnet" drawing/experiment. I thought the magnet was being moved left and right. I now understand that you mean that the magnet is to be moved from behind the screen to in front of the screen. If the field around the magnet was as simple as is drawn in your posted "three coil images", and the magnetic field is considered as having only one plane as drawn, no induction would occur in all three coils if the coils could be arranged such that the field vectors/lines intersect the coils perpendicular to the long axis of the coils. However, the depiction of the field in your drawings is too simplistic to reveal why the outer coils produce opposite polarities and why there is minimal induction in the center coil when the proposed three coil experiment is performed. If you overlay your three coils in the field depicted by bistander (reply#30,Screenshot_20240414-155537-234.png"), you will see a more accurate representation of the field around a magnet and its interaction with the coils. With the three coils positioned in that more accurate depiction, place vector arrows wherever a field line intersects the coils. You will see that only in the center coil do the field lines pass thru the coil, for the most part, perpendicular to the coil's long axis, which produces minimal induction. Where the field lines strike the center coil at slightly non-perpendicular angles, the vectors and lines are opposite and symmetrical on either side of the coil, and therefore tend to cancel out. Anywhere you position a coil oriented as in your image between the center of the magnet and its N pole, the vectors impinging upon the coil will be generally pointing toward the face of the coil at varying angles of incidence. Anywhere you position a coil oriented as in your image between the center of the magnet and its S pole, the vectors impinging upon the coil will be generally pointing away from the face of the coil at varying angles of incidence. With the vectors intersecting the face of the coils in opposite directions on either side of center, any induction produced by the two coils on opposite sides of center will have opposite polarities. Keep in mind that the field is actually three dimensional so in a real world experiment, one must also consider that the field strength and the angles at which the vectors impinge on the coils will vary as the magnet approaches and then recedes from the coils. PW The fields cutting the coils them self have very little to do with the EMF produced across the coil. It is the fields interaction with the core of the coil that produces most of the EMF across the coil. If you remove the core from the coil, the EMF across that coil will drop drastically. I see no difference between the fields of my drawing, to that of which Bistander provided, other than the fact that his picture shows the field compression of a short magnet, while mine shows the field of that of a long magnet. As stated before, the fields will be distorted by the ferromagnetic core material, which will tend to align the fields with the core material, so as to induce the ferromagnetic core. There is simply no reason why this would not take place in any point in the field along the magnet, using the single field theory--but it does not. Using the two field theory, we get exactly what we should get. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

picowatt	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #121 on: 2024-05-15, 03:03:30 »
Sr. Member Posts: 453	Quote from: TinMan on 2024-05-15, 02:27:39 The fields cutting the coils them self have very little to do with the EMF produced across the coil. It is the fields interaction with the core of the coil that produces most of the EMF across the coil. If you remove the core from the coil, the EMF across that coil will drop drastically. I performed your experiment with various coil types. Your experiment performs the same regardless of whether the coils are air core or ferrous cored. Quote I see no difference between the fields of my drawing, to that of which Bistander provided, other than the fact that his picture shows the field compression of a short magnet, while mine shows the field of that of a long magnet. There is a tremendous difference. Note the field lines that extend outward from the sides of the magnet at almost right angles to the magnetization axis. These lines erupting from the sides of the core at sharp angles are particularly prevalent with stronger magnets (neo's, etc). Again, if you place your three cores in bistander's posted field, and draw vector arrows where the field lines contact the coils, you will see that the north side coils have vector arrows pointing at that coil's face, and the south side coils have the vector arrows pointing away from that coil's face. This will be true regardless of whether the coils are air core or if they have a core that distorts the field. Quote As stated before, the fields will be distorted by the ferromagnetic core material, which will tend to align the fields with the core material, so as to induce the ferromagnetic core. There is simply no reason why this would not take place in any point in the field along the magnet, using the single field theory--but it does not. Again, if you redraw your three coils in the more realistic field bistander posted, regardless of whether there is a core or not, the preponderance of vectors on the north side of center will be pointing toward the coil face and the vectors on the south side of center will be pointing away from the coil face. Quote Using the two field theory, we get exactly what we should get. Using the single field theory, we also get exactly what we should get... PW

bistander	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #122 on: 2024-05-15, 03:16:14 »
Full Member Posts: 143	Hi Brad, As I understand your theory, there is a neutral zone outside the middle of the magnet where no induction or force occurs due to the magnetic field. Yet when I move a conductor or coil side (conductors in series bundled tightly together) along there, in the direction of the green arrow, I measure an induced voltage. Also, a moving charge through the green arrow line moving perpendicular to the green arrow and perpendicular to the magnetic axis, experiences a Lorentz force along the line of the green arrow. These observed phenomena are consistent with Faraday's Law and Lorentz's Law, respectfully, and with conventional magnetic flux field theory. bi ------------------------ On the notion of a magnetic motor Polish_20240514_213927998.jpg (182.1 kB, 1080x731 - viewed 90 times.)

TinMan	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #123 on: 2024-05-15, 03:19:27 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: picowatt on 2024-05-14, 19:44:05 AC, What is it with you and Brad drawing straight angular/diagonal lines through the body of a magnet to depict something about the magnet's magnetization? Surely this is not to be taken literally. Personally I find such drawings to be confusing and unlike anything I would imagine going on inside a magnet. It just doesn't seem "natural"... Is this some recently accepted drawing convention related to a PM I have never seen before? PW I don't recall drawing any such thing, regarding the internal workings of the PMs body. All the diagrams i use, are of your conventional drawings taken from the internet. I only add or change things on those drawings to show what i believe to be correct. If we are to stick to !convention!, then the forum might as well be shut down. This forum exists to find errors and mistakes in know science, so as we can find that !over unity! device-is it not? We are not here to stick with convention. We are here to find the unknown. Your convention cannot explain what the magnetic field is, or how it can produce these invisible forces, whereas the two-field theory explains it quite well. Knowing and understanding what we can do with the magnetic field, in no way shows or tells us what it actually is--unless you know what it is? Everything we have that provides some form of energy, is a flow from a high energy state, to a low energy state. Would you agree that it takes energy to align the magnetic domains within a ferromagnetic material? If so, when we bring the fields of a PM close to say a piece of steel, where did the energy come from to align those magnetic domains within that piece of steel? I will tell you where it came from--it came from the energy field that surrounds the PM. The negative field at one end of the PM will cause electron spin alignment in one direction within the piece of steel, and the positive field at the other end of the PM, will cause electron spin alignment in the opposite direction in the piece of steel. There is your Lorentz force being applied to the electrons within the steel. One thing i would like to ask you PW. You stated in another post that you do not believe that the magnetic field is fixed in space, but rotates with the PM. We can provide examples that shows the magnetic field is fixed in space, like the homopolar generator and motor. Can you provide examples that show the field to be rotating with the PM ? I only ask, as i am not aware of any such examples, but if they exist, i would like to see them, as this would add to us understanding what the magnetic field is. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

TinMan	Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #124 on: 2024-05-15, 03:38:01 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4728	Quote from: bistander on 2024-05-15, 03:16:14 Hi Brad, As I understand your theory, there is a neutral zone outside the middle of the magnet where no induction or force occurs due to the magnetic field. Yet when I move a conductor or coil side (conductors in series bundled tightly together) along there, in the direction of the green arrow, I measure an induced voltage. Also, a moving charge through the green arrow line moving perpendicular to the green arrow and perpendicular to the magnetic axis, experiences a Lorentz force along the line of the green arrow. These observed phenomena are consistent with Faraday's Law and Lorentz's Law, respectfully, and with conventional magnetic flux field theory. bi I am not sure what you mean by ( Yet when I move a conductor or coil side along there, in the direction of the green arrow)? If you have a coil/inductor laying on it's side, where one end of the core is toward the north end of the magnet, and the other end is toward the south end of the magnet, then of course you will get an induced voltage. If the coil core is at right angles to the length of the magnet, then no induced voltage will be seen across the coil when the core is passed across the center position of the magnet. Brad --------------------------- Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.

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