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OverUnity Research > General - Free Energy Related > Miscellaneous Discussions (Moderator: Allcanadian) > On the notion of a magnetic motor
2024-11-28, 07:40:50
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Author Topic: On the notion of a magnetic motor  (Read 22812 times)
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #25 on: 2024-05-07, 19:01:06 »
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Citfta
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Okay, I'll go out on a limb here and publically state I don't believe in a actual physical bloch wall.  I don't believe in a physical bloch wall because if you cut a magnet in half at the "bloch wall" you don't get a north half and a south half.  You get two magnets that each have a north end and a south end.  But if visualizing a bloch wall helps someone understand the workiings of a magnet I also don't see a problem with that.

I agree the term bloch wall is often misused but has some merit. A bloch wall is defined as "a transition region between adjacent magnetic domains in a ferromagnetic material". Could we not say, there is an external field transition region between two different magnetic poles similar to an adjacent magnetic domain?. In effect, by separating two different magnetic domains into two separate magnets the transition region changes from internal to external. Ergo, it could be seen as the same principal viewed from a different perspective.

Suppose we had one magnet made of 100 aligned magnetic domains. Science tells us there is in fact a transition region between all the magnetic domains called bloch walls. We then break the one magnet in half so each half has 50 magnetic domains. Where did the transition region go which was between the domains now in two halves?. The transition region ie. bloch wall should still be present it's just spread apart and now external between the two magnet halves where before it was internal to one magnet.

AC



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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #26 on: 2024-05-08, 03:40:52 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-05-07, 19:01:06
Citfta
I agree the term bloch wall is often misused but has some merit. A bloch wall is defined as "a transition region between adjacent magnetic domains in a ferromagnetic material". Could we not say, there is an external field transition region between two different magnetic poles similar to an adjacent magnetic domain?. In effect, by separating two different magnetic domains into two separate magnets the transition region changes from internal to external. Ergo, it could be seen as the same principal viewed from a different perspective.

Suppose we had one magnet made of 100 aligned magnetic domains. Science tells us there is in fact a transition region between all the magnetic domains called bloch walls. We then break the one magnet in half so each half has 50 magnetic domains. Where did the transition region go which was between the domains now in two halves?. The transition region ie. bloch wall should still be present it's just spread apart and now external between the two magnet halves where before it was internal to one magnet.

AC

Hi AC,

Here's a couple of typical definitions of Bloch Wall.

Quote
A Bloch wall is a type of domain wall that forms in magnetic materials. It is a transition region between two regions of the material where the magnetization is oriented in different directions.

In a magnetic material, the atoms have an inherent magnetic moment, which can align with an external magnetic field. When a magnetic field is applied to a ferromagnetic material, the magnetic moments of the atoms tend to align in the direction of the field, creating a magnetic domain with a uniform magnetization. A Bloch wall forms at the boundary between two such domains, where the direction of magnetization gradually changes from one domain to the other.

The magnetization in a Bloch wall rotates continuously within the wall, rather than abruptly changing direction. The direction of magnetization at any point within the wall can be described by a Bloch vector, which varies smoothly across the wall.

The width of a Bloch wall depends on the properties of the material and the strength of the magnetic field. In some materials, the width of the wall can be as small as a few nanometers, while in others it can be several micrometers or more.

The formation and behavior of Bloch walls are important in the study of magnetic materials and have many practical applications. For example, they play a crucial role in the operation of magnetic memories and in the development of magnetic sensors and spintronic devices. Read more about  Bloch function

https://edutinker.com/glossary/bloch-wall/.

________


Bloch wall

"Bloch wall" is one type of the boundary structure of magnetic domains whose magnetization directions are antiparallel or are different by 180°to each other. The magnetic dipoles continuously rotate in planes parallel to the magnetic boundary and finally connect to those at the adjacent magnetic domain with opposite magnetization. This structure is formed in a bulk specimen with a thickness of more than 100 nm. The thickness of the Bloch wall is about 50 nm for iron. In a diffraction pattern formed by two adjacent magnetic domains containing a Bloch wall, a diffuse intensity line appears connecting the diffraction spots from the two domains.

https://www.jeol.com/words/emterms/20121023.093757.php#gsc.tab=0

Note not all domains are said or claimed to have a Bloch Wall associated. In fact, inference is made that adjacent domains having parallel magnetic moments do not qualify since a rotation of moments takes place as a transition in the Bloch Wall. So when the magnet is saturated by an external magnetic field (magnetized) and all the domains align, one might assume there would be no Bloch Walls. Individual domains would undoubtedly still have boundaries, or walls, but being all parallel, no transition from one to another involving rotating moments.

And I fail to see any transition in the external field. It's a singular field around the magnet, not a north field and a south field. The north and south poles are imaginary constructs to aid teaching students the behavior of magnetism, much like lines of force. No real entity of a magnetic pole exists, only a definition of an area on gaussian surface where the integral of the magnetic field direction is inward (S) or outward (N).
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #27 on: 2024-05-08, 16:29:39 »
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AC and Bi,

The first link below is an experiment where a Neo bar magnet is suspended in a horizontally positioned, vertically wound coil that is energized with 3A DC.  The second link shows a similar experiment done with a single fine wire.  How do we justify these results if the PM flux field is simply parallel to the sides of the magnet?


https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/777duffo31rl8ly8502zh/MAH01008.MP4?rlkey=cwmhwmq0uda5o8nnj8w9u3nuo&st=hybrrrlq&dl=0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2JFDpTE_ls

Pm
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #28 on: 2024-05-08, 16:49:30 »
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This book could be the origin of the bloch wall debate.

It seems to have originated from a book called "Magnetism and Its Effects on the Living System" by Albert Roy and Walter Rawls published in 1974. It's an interesting book and can be downloaded here, http://www.rexresearch.com/davisrawls/davisrawls.htm

They claim to be using a different field mapping technique not dependent on iron filings, compasses ie. induced magnetism or hall effect sensors. Which could explain why there results are different. They also seem to have done decades of work on how magnetic fields affect organic systems.

AC









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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #29 on: 2024-05-08, 18:08:36 »
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Quote from: partzman on 2024-05-08, 16:29:39
AC and Bi,

The first link below is an experiment where a Neo bar magnet is suspended in a horizontally positioned, vertically wound coil that is energized with 3A DC.  The second link shows a similar experiment done with a single fine wire.  How do we justify these results if the PM flux field is simply parallel to the sides of the magnet?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/777duffo31rl8ly8502zh/MAH01008.MP4?rlkey=cwmhwmq0uda5o8nnj8w9u3nuo&st=hybrrrlq&dl=0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2JFDpTE_ls
Pm

Indeed, I have done the same experiments. Also many similar experiments relating to an excellent book by Leonard Crow on a non-ferrous electromagnet which I replicated.
The book can be downloaded here, http://www.rexresearch.com/mrmagnet/mrmagnet.htm

As an inventor I found it's best not to get too wrapped up in what others believe. It's better to do real experiments like you posted then look for an application. To say, okay I discovered an energized wire is attracted to the center of a magnet not the poles. What do more wires do, what does wires around a small core do, what if I used a much longer magnet or magnets in series, how can I apply this?. So we go through this creative process where we learn how far we can take a new idea or phenomena by doing as many real experiments as we can.

In fact, it does not really depend on science because in many cases nobody knows exactly what's going to happen. As well it's best not to do any research at first which could bias our observations or creative process. As an inventor the goal is to live in the present and focus on what we learn from our first hand observations.

AC










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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #30 on: 2024-05-09, 05:14:49 »
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Quote from: partzman on 2024-05-08, 16:29:39
AC and Bi,

The first link below is an experiment where a Neo bar magnet is suspended in a horizontally positioned, vertically wound coil that is energized with 3A DC.  The second link shows a similar experiment done with a single fine wire.  How do we justify these results if the PM flux field is simply parallel to the sides of the magnet?


https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/777duffo31rl8ly8502zh/MAH01008.MP4?rlkey=cwmhwmq0uda5o8nnj8w9u3nuo&st=hybrrrlq&dl=0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2JFDpTE_ls

Pm


Hi PM,
In both experiments, the observed behavior is exactly what is predicted by Lorentz force law and classic magnetic field as shown on the attached graphic. On the FEMM of the magnet, the N S axis is vertical. Draw a perpendicular bisector. That gives a horizontal line at the magnet mid point. Notice the intersection of that horizontal line with the field lines occurs where a tangent would be vertical. So the B vector (magnetic field) at that point is vertical. The current in the wire is horizontal at right angle to that midline (or in or out of the screen). So the cross product of the field vector and the current vector results in the force vector with direction on the midline to the right or to the left. See attached right hand rule diagram.
*
So depending on the direction of the current and orientation of the magnet, the wire will come to rest at the midpoint of the magnet, one side or the other. The point where it comes to rest is called a stable detent. That is a position where the force between the magnet and wire are equal and a deviation from this stable detent will result in a force causing it to return.

The experiment with the magnet suspended in the coil is the same except the Lorentz force occurs 360° around the midpoint with a deviation, as the presenter mentions, due to gravity. The addition of the gravitational force rises the stable detent on the magnet slightly above the midpoint.
Perfect demonstrations. Thanks.
bi

*edit:
When the wire is elsewhere other than on the midline, the field vector (on a tangent to the field line) is non vertical and points in a direction such that the Lorentz force (B × I) will point towards the midpoint causing the wire to move towards the stable detent.
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #31 on: 2024-05-09, 13:35:19 »

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Quote from: bistander on 2024-05-09, 05:14:49


Hi PM,
In both experiments, the observed behavior is exactly what is predicted by Lorentz force law and classic magnetic field as shown on the attached graphic. On the FEMM of the magnet, the N S axis is vertical. Draw a perpendicular bisector. That gives a horizontal line at the magnet mid point. Notice the intersection of that horizontal line with the field lines occurs where a tangent would be vertical. So the B vector (magnetic field) at that point is vertical. The current in the wire is horizontal at right angle to that midline (or in or out of the screen). So the cross product of the field vector and the current vector results in the force vector with direction on the midline to the right or to the left. See attached right hand rule diagram.
*
So depending on the direction of the current and orientation of the magnet, the wire will come to rest at the midpoint of the magnet, one side or the other. The point where it comes to rest is called a stable detent. That is a position where the force between the magnet and wire are equal and a deviation from this stable detent will result in a force causing it to return.

The experiment with the magnet suspended in the coil is the same except the Lorentz force occurs 360° around the midpoint with a deviation, as the presenter mentions, due to gravity. The addition of the gravitational force rises the stable detent on the magnet slightly above the midpoint.
Perfect demonstrations. Thanks.
bi

*edit:
When the wire is elsewhere other than on the midline, the field vector (on a tangent to the field line) is non vertical and points in a direction such that the Lorentz force (B × I) will point towards the midpoint causing the wire to move towards the stable detent.

I disagree.

The below image does not show what a magnetic field is.
The field lines around the magnet are totally wrong, and in no way represent the actual field of a PM.

If the image actually showed what a PMs field is, then any part along the length of that magnet would induce an emf in a coil if it was waved across the face of the coil, but it does not.
Two totally different fields exist along the length of the magnet, which could be seen as a positive and negative charge, where the center along the length see's a neutral point of charges.
But these charges ae not what we know as charges. These fields are made of some other form of charge that we are yet to understand.
Like charges repel, unlike charges attract. This is exactly what we see with PMs, but with fields that dense, no electric fields that we know of today can produce such forces that we find with the PMs fields.

I believe that the PM is separating charges of an extremely dense energy field that is all around us, and of which we are yet to understand.
You are of course free to come up with another explanation or example that would explain this invisible force around the PMs body.

With charged capacitor plates, we can remove that charge, and use it to power loads.
Now, Imagin what we would have once we work out what this charge is around a PM, and how to use it, where the PM continually keeps renewing this charge separation.

The whole problem is, most think we know all about !electrical! charge, and what it is.
We are stuck with this thinking that we know all there is to know when it comes to charges, which is why the field around a PM still remains an unknown--we keep looking for what we know, and disregard looking for the unknown. That is science today--we know what charges are, and it's not charges around a PM, so lets not look any further.

So here are some facts
1- we know that electric charges (as we know them),can exert a small invisible force between like and unlike charges.
2- we know that (what we call poles) of a PM can exert large forces between them--far greater than any electrical charges can.
So, do we know of anything else that can exert an invisible force as such?, other than gravity, which is quite a weak force.


Brad


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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #32 on: 2024-05-09, 14:24:37 »
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Hi Brad,

You've mentioned this position previously. So I conducted an experiment in my basement lab. Attached are a couple of photos of the set-up. I used a 1×.5×.2 inch neo bar magnet clamped by two .5 inch lexan blocks such that magnetic axis was vertical.

The single wire drew 15-20 A from a single LiMNC cell. It perfectly demonstrated Pm's first test being attracted to the center of the magnet.

Secondly I used a multi turn coil and moved it sharply by hand in the area of the midsection of the magnet. Even at those low speeds, I was able to detect 10-15mV on the analog voltmeter verifying that there is an induced voltage when cutting the magnetic field in that region.

I'm unsure why your results differ. Perhaps you used a smaller coil where induction on two opposite coil sides cancelled.
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #33 on: 2024-05-09, 14:42:42 »

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Quote from: bistander on 2024-05-09, 14:24:37
Hi Brad,

You've mentioned this position previously. So I conducted an experiment in my basement lab. Attached are a couple of photos of the set-up. I used a 1×.5×.2 inch neo bar magnet clamped by two .5 inch lexan blocks such that magnetic axis was vertical.

The single wire drew 15-20 A from a single LiMNC cell. It perfectly demonstrated Pm's first test being attracted to the center of the magnet.

Secondly I used a multi turn coil and moved it sharply by hand in the area of the midsection of the magnet. Even at those low speeds, I was able to detect 10-15mV on the analog voltmeter verifying that there is an induced voltage when cutting the magnetic field in that region.

I'm unsure why your results differ. Perhaps you used a smaller coil where induction on two opposite coil sides cancelled.
bi

Quote
The single wire drew 15-20 A from a single LiMNC cell. It perfectly demonstrated Pm's first test being attracted to the center of the magnet.

But why is it drawn to the center of the magnet, if the field is along the whole length of the magnet?

Quote
Secondly I used a multi turn coil and moved it sharply by hand in the area of the midsection of the magnet. Even at those low speeds, I was able to detect 10-15mV on the analog voltmeter verifying that there is an induced voltage when cutting the magnetic field in that region.

That is because you are moving the coil from one field to the other, where an ac voltage would have appeared.
The fact that you get a voltage is showing you that the field is changing from one end to the other.
If the field was the same along the length of the magnet, then there would be no voltage produced, due to a non changing magnetic field.
If you instead run the center of the magnet across the coil, then no emf will be produced, as there is no net field at the center of the PM body..
See image below.


Brad


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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #34 on: 2024-05-09, 14:51:32 »
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Hi Brad,

I tried my best to explain it to Pm.

That's all I should say to you because I've been told not to argue with you.
Regards,
bi
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #35 on: 2024-05-09, 15:27:25 »

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Quote from: bistander on 2024-05-09, 14:51:32
Hi Brad,

I tried my best to explain it to Pm.

That's all I should say to you because I've been told not to argue with you.
Regards,
bi

So someone is dictating to you what discussions we should and can have?

I must say, that is not very scientific.
I never took you for being someone who could be silenced.
You never were at energetic, amongst the clown squad.

Through simple tests, we can see the field along a rod magnet drop from one end to a 0 value at the center, and then invert from the center, to the other end.
PMs do not have the same field along their length as your diagram depicted.
A PM is more like 2 batteries in series, where you can place one DMM probe at the center of the 2 series connected batteries, and with the other probe, measure a positive voltage at one end, and a negative voltage at the other end, where the center has a value of 0.

I will go back and read what you described to PM.


Brad


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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #36 on: 2024-05-09, 15:52:50 »
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Quote from: TinMan on 2024-05-09, 15:27:25
So someone is dictating to you what discussions we should and can have?

I must say, that is not very scientific.
I never took you for being someone who could be silenced.
You never were at energetic, amongst the clown squad.

Through simple tests, we can see the field along a rod magnet drop from one end to a 0 value at the center, and then invert from the center, to the other end.
PMs do not have the same field along their length as your diagram depicted.
A PM is more like 2 batteries in series, where you can place one DMM probe at the center of the 2 series connected batteries, and with the other probe, measure a positive voltage at one end, and a negative voltage at the other end, where the center has a value of 0.

I will go back and read what you described to PM.


Brad

Brad,
I enjoy discussions. And would like to continue. But these folks have the power and will delete my messages. I hate when I spend time and effort composing a reply to have thrown in the bit bucket.
Cheers,
bi
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #37 on: 2024-05-09, 16:17:21 »
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Quote from bistander:
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So depending on the direction of the current and orientation of the magnet, the wire will come to rest at the midpoint of the magnet, one side or the other. The point where it comes to rest is called a stable detent. That is a position where the force between the magnet and wire are equal and a deviation from this stable detent will result in a force causing it to return.

The experiment with the magnet suspended in the coil is the same except the Lorentz force occurs 360° around the midpoint with a deviation, as the presenter mentions, due to gravity. The addition of the gravitational force rises the stable detent on the magnet slightly above the midpoint.
Perfect demonstrations. Thanks.

In my opinion bistander made a few conflicting claims,
1)He claimed there was no "neutral zone" at the field center of a magnet then claimed the center is where the force between the magnet and wire equalize ie. neutralize.

2)He claimes the imaginary field lines along the side of the magnet are parallel and uniform with no center. Then claims the center is where the force between the magnet and wire are equal ie. neutral.

Which begs the question, if there is no neutral zone or center then why do all the forces balance at the center?. Obviously something must be happening at the center otherwise the forces in the system wouldn't always be moving to the center.

So we have experimental proof that there is a neutral zone or field center where the forces balance. The next step is to determine what's going on at the center and how to utilize this phenomena.

AC



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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #38 on: 2024-05-09, 17:00:24 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-05-09, 16:17:21
Quote from bistander:
In my opinion bistander made a few conflicting claims,
1)He claimed there was no "neutral zone" at the field center of a magnet then claimed the center is where the force between the magnet and wire equalize ie. neutralize.

2)He claimes the imaginary field lines along the side of the magnet are parallel and uniform with no center. Then claims the center is where the force between the magnet and wire are equal ie. neutral.

Which begs the question, if there is no neutral zone or center then why do all the forces balance at the center?. Obviously something must be happening at the center otherwise the forces in the system wouldn't always be moving to the center.

So we have experimental proof that there is a neutral zone or field center where the forces balance. The next step is to determine what's going on at the center and how to utilize this phenomena.

AC

AC,
I never made such claims.

1.)
The Lorentz force is pushing the wire against the surface on the magnet in the middle of the vertical surface. According to Sir Newton, opposite and equal force from the magnet to the wire. Stable detent or equilibrium point, not neutral and not devoid of flux or force.

2.)
Where did I say lines are parallel? Where did I say uniform? Where did I say no center? I talk about a horizontal midline (perpendicular bisector).
bi
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #39 on: 2024-05-09, 18:25:00 »
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1.)
The Lorentz force is pushing the wire against the surface on the magnet in the middle of the vertical surface. According to Sir Newton, opposite and equal force from the magnet to the wire. Stable detent or equilibrium point, not neutral and not devoid of flux or force.

Now were simply talking semantics aren't we?. You say stable detent or equilibrium point and others say neutral point or bloch wall. The outcome would seem to be the same in my opinion. The forces move towards a center point between the two poles.

Quote
2.)
Where did I say lines are parallel? Where did I say uniform? Where did I say no center? I talk about a horizontal midline (perpendicular bisector).

Again were talking semantics. You posted a picture of a standard magnetic field with parallel mostly uniform lines along the side and implied this is what a magnetic field looks like. You implied there is no center and yet we have proof the forces always move to a center.

My question is simple, if there is no center then why is there ample proof the forces always move towards a center between the poles. I'm not sure how one can claim others are misguided when they imply the same thing using slightly different terms. Is there a center between the poles the forces move towards or not?.

AC



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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #40 on: 2024-05-09, 20:31:17 »

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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-05-09, 16:17:21
So we have experimental proof that there is a neutral zone or field center where the forces balance. The next step is to determine what's going on at the center and how to utilize this phenomena.

AC
Maybe because although magnetic force in Bloch wall equal zero,but length of blochwall equal null as well.
So your work which is  done in order 2 Newton's law also equal zero.
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #41 on: 2024-05-09, 21:01:11 »
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Bi,

I'm sorry to be so late in responding but I had some issues come up unexpectedly!

The right hand diagram you show also demonstrates the attraction or repulsion of the magnetic field in the perpendicular and the resultant force direction.  I would agree that as a result we should see the wire move towards or away form the PM field.  What I question is the reason why the wire seeks the center or the PM when in the attraction mode?  In my way of looking at it, the wire would seem to want to be unstable in the attraction mode and would seek the opposite pole instead of locking in the center.  The only way IMO the wire would attract to the center would be as a result of a reduction in the opposite PM field at that physical point.

Regards,
Pm
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #42 on: 2024-05-09, 21:08:41 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-05-09, 18:25:00
Bistander
Now were simply talking semantics aren't we?. You say stable detent or equilibrium point and others say neutral point or bloch wall. The outcome would seem to be the same in my opinion. The forces move towards a center point between the two poles.

Again were talking semantics. You posted a picture of a standard magnetic field with parallel mostly uniform lines along the side and implied this is what a magnetic field looks like. You implied there is no center and yet we have proof the forces always move to a center.

My question is simple, if there is no center then why is there ample proof the forces always move towards a center between the poles. I'm not sure how one can claim others are misguided when they imply the same thing using slightly different terms. Is there a center between the poles the forces move towards or not?.

AC

No, there is a center between what you call poles, but actually there are no real poles, just a magnetic field. Or B vector field. And the Lorentz force direction results from the cross product of that B vector and current (qv). For the geometry of a bar magnet the resulting Lorentz F happens to point towards the midline, but nothing is peculiar or special about the center of the magnet.

This is what is taught. Because you fail to understand it, don't claim it is wrong, or something else. This "neutral" point on the outside of a bar magnet is pretty useless anyway. Where in useful applications to you see it? I've never seen a magnetic circuit built to accommodate it. Look at how PMs are applied in motors and generators. Even refrigerator magnets leave the sides free.

I'd appreciate if you'd stop claiming I mean or imply something other than what I say (type). And please read what I post as you repeated my reply #3 in your reply #28. Why?
bi
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #43 on: 2024-05-09, 21:39:58 »
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Perhaps this may help-

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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #44 on: 2024-05-09, 21:51:29 »
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #45 on: 2024-05-09, 21:59:50 »
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Quote from: partzman on 2024-05-09, 21:01:11
Bi,

I'm sorry to be so late in responding but I had some issues come up unexpectedly!

The right hand diagram you show also demonstrates the attraction or repulsion of the magnetic field in the perpendicular and the resultant force direction.  I would agree that as a result we should see the wire move towards or away form the PM field.  What I question is the reason why the wire seeks the center or the PM when in the attraction mode?  In my way of looking at it, the wire would seem to want to be unstable in the attraction mode and would seek the opposite pole instead of locking in the center.  The only way IMO the wire would attract to the center would be as a result of a reduction in the opposite PM field at that physical point.

Regards,
Pm

Hi Pm,

I've tried my best to explain it. Please reread. And look up some other Lorentz force tutorials. I'll say more and hope to help.

You say
Quote
reduction in the opposite PM field at that physical point.
There is only one magnetic field in the space around the magnet due to the magnet. At every physical point in that field (space) there is a single B vector. That B vector represents the magnitude (tesla or webers/meter2) and direction of the magnetic field at that point. If there is a moving charge at that point in the field (as in the current in the wire), a reaction occurs called Lorentz F which has a direction and magnitude (B×qv). The wire will move until it encounters an obstacle. In this case, the obstacle is the body of the magnet. The location where it comes to rest against the body of the magnet is call a stable detent. If the current carrying wire is in the bar magnet's magnetic field, it is attracted towards the magnet. That's why when you reverse the current, the wire doesn't repel away from the magnet, but moves to the magnet's opposite side to the new stable detent.

Stable detent implies that any deviation from that position will result is a force to return it to the stable detent. Whereas an unstable detent is an equilibrium point where any deviation in position results in a force separating it further. In this case, I think such unstable detent would be at a corner. Theoretically the current carrying wire could be placed there and stay there until the slightest deviation, which makes it practically impossible.

And, the stable detent, middle of the magnet side, is not a neutral point. It has a B vector, a current and a Lorentz F. That force holds the wire tight against the magnet surface. When you run the demonstration, try to pull the away from the magnet. You'll see it is stuck there requiring substantial pull to separate. Not what I would call a neutral zone.

I suggest you do the experiment yourself. I think you'd better understand what I'm talking about.
bi
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #46 on: 2024-05-10, 02:02:12 »

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Quote from: bistander on 2024-05-09, 15:52:50
Brad,
I enjoy discussions. And would like to continue. But these folks have the power and will delete my messages. I hate when I spend time and effort composing a reply to have thrown in the bit bucket.
Cheers,
bi

I find it hard to believe that those here who run the forum, would delete any of your posts.
I would hope this is not the case.

Brad


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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #47 on: 2024-05-10, 03:22:27 »

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Quote
author=bistander link=topic=4661.msg112047#msg112047 date=1715288390


Quote
There is only one magnetic field in the space around the magnet due to the magnet.

I would disagree with that.
There are two fields around the body of a PM, where one field has a positive charge (so to speak), and the other a negative charge (so to speak)

Quote
At every physical point in that field (space) there is a single B vector.

Once again, i disagree.
The image below is incorrect, and does not show what a magnetic field around a PM body is.

Quote
That B vector represents the magnitude (tesla or webers/meter2) and direction of the magnetic field at that point.

Once again, i disagree.
The diagram below does not show the !direction! of the magnetic field.
What we call the magnetic field, is a field of two separate !charges!, which are pinned in space, and not to the PMs body.
This is why the homopolar generator sees no charge separation across the disk when the magnet is spun, but sees a charge separation across the disk when the disk is spun.

Quote
If there is a moving charge at that point in the field (as in the current in the wire), a reaction occurs called Lorentz F which has a direction and magnitude (B×qv). The wire will move until it encounters an obstacle.

If there is only one magnetic field around the body of a PM, and if at every point in that field there is a single B vector, then what is this obstacle?

Quote
And, the stable detent, middle of the magnet side, is not a neutral point.

But it is, as that center point of the magnet cannot induce an emf in a coil, like each end of the magnet can.
The field at the center of a PMs body, is a mix of both fields that exist around the PMs body, and has a net field value of 0, which is why it cannot induce an emf into a coil when passed across a coil.

Quote
It has a B vector, a current and a Lorentz F. That force holds the wire tight against the magnet surface.

The wire sticks there as there is no net field, just the same as the wire would stick to any unmagnetized ferromagnetic material.
The current carrying wire is repelled by the magnetic field around each end of the magnet, and is attracted to the PMs ferromagnetic body where the net field is 0, which is at the center point of the magnets body. With the current flowing in one direction through the wire, the wire may rotate CW to the center of the PMs body. If the current is flowing in the opposite direction through the wire, the wire may rotate CCW to the center of the PMs body.

Quote
That's why when you reverse the current, the wire doesn't repel away from the magnet, but moves to the magnet's opposite side to the new stable detent.

Actually, the wire is repelled away from the magnets fields, regardless of which field the current carrying wire is in, or which direction the current is flowing through the wire, and is attracted to the point where the net field value is 0- at the center of the two fields.

Quote
If the current carrying wire is in the bar magnet's magnetic field, it is attracted towards the magnet.

Actually, PMs experiment shows it being repelled by the magnets field, and coming to rest where the field has a net value of 0--at the center between the two fields.

Quote
I suggest you do the experiment yourself. I think you'd better understand what I'm talking about.

I have done many experiments, which confirm everything i say, where there is a field net value of 0 at the center of the two fields around a PM.

The PM is separating some form of charge that exists all around us, and the fact that PMs exhibit the same forces in space, also tells us that this !charge! exists in all space in the universe.
Or are we to believe that the PM it self is spewing out a continual stream of something?, where oddly enough, that something that is being continually spewed out at one end of the magnet is opposite to that at the other end of the magnet? We need like !charges! to repel, and unlike !charges! to attract-do we not? So, the field around a PM cannot be the same all around the PM as you state. Everything has an equal and opposite, so how can the field around the PM body be the same all around the PM body?


Brad


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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #48 on: 2024-05-10, 04:00:16 »
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Sorry Brad,
No comment.
bi
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #49 on: 2024-05-10, 04:02:51 »
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Quote from: TinMan on 2024-05-10, 02:02:12
I find it hard to believe that those here who run the forum, would delete any of your posts.
I would hope this is not the case.

Brad

Sucks, doesn't it.
bi
   
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