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OverUnity Research > General - Free Energy Related > Miscellaneous Discussions (Moderator: Allcanadian) > On the notion of a magnetic motor
2024-11-28, 08:47:20
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On the notion of a magnetic motor « on: 2024-05-02, 18:12:45 »
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Taken from another thread...

Indeed, the whole notion of field lines and loops came from Faraday's observations of the patterns in iron filings. However the theory is wrong and the iron filings only show the results of something called induced magnetism. A bar magnet induces a magnet field in each iron filing causing parallel filings to repel and serial filings to attract. It does not show that the source magnetic field has lines or loops it shows what happens to small stuff induced within a magnetic field.

To be clear, the source magnetic field did not create the lines and loops the individual induced fields in each iron filing did. In fact the lines and loops are what is called "experimental error". It's an error because the thing supposedly measuring the field was biased by the field. Not only is it an experimental error but an amateur error. The whole premise of measurement is that the thing doing the measuring not be biased by the thing it's measuring.

Another proof is that a non-ferromagnetic hall effect sensor does not detect any lines. There are no lines and there are no loops nor is anything flowing in any imaginary lines or loops.

Here is neat video showing more proof.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oxfLNmsvSs&t=50s
Note that whenever the magnet is moved over the hall sensor array we see a break (black line) at the center of the magnetic field. If there is supposedly no transition or neutral point then why is there always a break at the center?.

Another strange aspect to this. In this modern age of science one would think every tom, dick and harry would have mapped every kind of magnetic field with hall effect sensor arrays by now. The internet should be littered with real visualizations not just fake simulations showing imaginary lines and loops. Where are all the real maps and visualizations?, there basically non-existent. It would seem to me confirmation bias is alive and well but real science not so much.

AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #1 on: 2024-05-02, 18:52:44 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-05-02, 18:12:45
Taken from another thread...

Indeed, the whole notion of field lines and loops came from Faraday's observations of the patterns in iron filings. However the theory is wrong and the iron filings only show the results of something called induced magnetism. A bar magnet induces a magnet field in each iron filing causing parallel filings to repel and serial filings to attract. It does not show that the source magnetic field has lines or loops it shows what happens to small stuff induced within a magnetic field.

To be clear, the source magnetic field did not create the lines and loops the individual induced fields in each iron filing did. In fact the lines and loops are what is called "experimental error". It's an error because the thing supposedly measuring the field was biased by the field. Not only is it an experimental error but an amateur error. The whole premise of measurement is that the thing doing the measuring not be biased by the thing it's measuring.

Another proof is that a non-ferromagnetic hall effect sensor does not detect any lines. There are no lines and there are no loops nor is anything flowing in any imaginary lines or loops.

Here is neat video showing more proof.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oxfLNmsvSs&t=50s
Note that whenever the magnet is moved over the hall sensor array we see a break (black line) at the center of the magnetic field. If there is supposedly no transition or neutral point then why is there always a break at the center?.

Another strange aspect to this. In this modern age of science one would think every tom, dick and harry would have mapped every kind of magnetic field with hall effect sensor arrays by now. The internet should be littered with real visualizations not just fake simulations showing imaginary lines and loops. Where are all the real maps and visualizations?, there basically non-existent. It would seem to me confirmation bias is alive and well but real science not so much.

AC

Hello AC,

You ask: "If there is supposedly no transition or neutral point then why is there always a break at the center?"

Because the so called "break" is actually an area where the external magnetic field is parallel to the N-S magnet axis AND also parallel to the Hall sensor. The same reasons that the middle of a magnet's surface causes a white strip on viewing film. The magnetic field is parallel to the plane of the film causing the magnetic particles to align with the plane of the film reflecting light giving a white appearance. All other areas of the film have magnetic field components perpendicular to the film plane causing these particles not to align therefore not to reflect and stay dark. Look it up.

Attached is an excellent graphic from K & J Magnetics. No doubt it was calculated however I am confident that measurement of the external magnetic field with proper instruments would confirm.
bi
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #2 on: 2024-05-02, 18:59:32 »
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Consider the pictures below...

It's easy to visualize each little compass direction forming lines and said lines forming loops, easy peasy. Unfortunately none of this is true and is a psychological defect related to how our mind rationalizes problems. We want to see patterns in everything even if said patterns do not exist. Our brain evolved to do this just like many other animals as a matter of survival.

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/20978285/optical-illusion-science-humility-reality-polarization
“Reality” is constructed by your brain. Here’s what that means, and why it matters.

What were actually seeing is many small objects interacting with each other within the larger magnetic field. There are no lines thus there are no loops and no flow of anything. What were actually seeing is many individual polarizations at a single point and our mind is basically making up the rest.

Now if there are no loops then obviously there can be no rule to claim there must be continuous loops and they cannot be broken. That is a false inference relating to something which doesn't exist. No lines or loops no rules relating to lines or loops. As such there is no logical reason an imaginary line or loop could not be broken by a local depolarization within a field. In effect one or more monopoles could be produced. The only problem here is that we have no idea how to do it. Which has nothing to do with a law of nature rather a lack of understanding concerning one or more laws.

This could relate to field displacement but many FE inventors of the past talked about projection or energy at a distance. In fact, were doing this to some extent today. For example, it was thought that a laser could never do noninvasive brain surgery because it would obviously burn though everything on it's way to the problem. So some clever Engineers broke up the laser beam into many smaller less powerful beams which do not burn flesh converging them on one single point inside the brain which does burn. This technology getting pretty close to the notion of a spooky action at a distance or energy projection.

Knowing this could give us some kind of direction as to how it could be possible to depolarize a local space within a magnetic field. In effect, depolarizing or cancelling/neutralizing one part of the larger field. Remember there are no lines, loops or flow it's imaginary. So some form of energy which is not magnetic in nature enters the larger field. This energy from multiple sources converges within the field, said energy then transforms into something which can depolarize the field and that part of the field ceases to exist.

In effect, we project energy into the magnetic field of the picture below disrupting the polarization of the compasses shown in one specific area. In theory it could be possible it's just a matter of working through all the problems involved.

AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  bistander
Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #3 on: 2024-05-02, 19:51:45 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-05-02, 18:59:32
Consider the pictures below...

It's easy to visualize each little compass direction forming lines and said lines forming loops, easy peasy. Unfortunately none of this is true and is a psychological defect related to how our mind rationalizes problems. We want to see patterns in everything even if said patterns do not exist. Our brain evolved to do this just like many other animals as a matter of survival.

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/20978285/optical-illusion-science-humility-reality-polarization
“Reality” is constructed by your brain. Here’s what that means, and why it matters.

What were actually seeing is many small objects interacting with each other within the larger magnetic field. There are no lines thus there are no loops and no flow of anything. What were actually seeing is many individual polarizations at a single point and our mind is basically making up the rest.

Now if there are no loops then obviously there can be no rule to claim there must be continuous loops and they cannot be broken. That is a false inference relating to something which doesn't exist. No lines or loops no rules relating to lines or loops. As such there is no logical reason an imaginary line or loop could not be broken by a local depolarization within a field. In effect one or more monopoles could be produced. The only problem here is that we have no idea how to do it. Which has nothing to do with a law of nature rather a lack of understanding concerning one or more laws.

This could relate to field displacement but many FE inventors of the past talked about projection or energy at a distance. In fact, were doing this to some extent today. For example, it was thought that a laser could never do noninvasive brain surgery because it would obviously burn though everything on it's way to the problem. So some clever Engineers broke up the laser beam into many smaller less powerful beams which do not burn flesh converging them on one single point inside the brain which does burn. This technology getting pretty close to the notion of a spooky action at a distance or energy projection.

Knowing this could give us some kind of direction as to how it could be possible to depolarize a local space within a magnetic field. In effect, depolarizing or cancelling/neutralizing one part of the larger field. Remember there are no lines, loops or flow it's imaginary. So some form of energy which is not magnetic in nature enters the larger field. This energy from multiple sources converges within the field, said energy then transforms into something which can depolarize the field and that part of the field ceases to exist.

In effect, we project energy into the magnetic field of the picture below disrupting the polarization of the compasses shown in one specific area. In theory it could be possible it's just a matter of working through all the problems involved.

AC

AC,
You're the one obsessed with lines and loops and poles. Not me. I know these are just constructs or teaching aids for people not able to comprehend the vector field and relate the value of that field. Like a topological map. The elevation lines aren't real. They just help relate a physical feature.

It just bugs me people misuse "Bloch Wall".

Below:
A valid explanation/definition of Bloch Wall.
Next a diagram of 2 domains separated by a Bloch Wall.
Last is the earliest misuse of the term where I think the authors of this book, MAGNETISM AND ITS EFFECTS
ON THE LIVING SYSTEM by Albert Roy Davis
Walter C. Rawls, Jr., made the error. Book is available free on line. Look it up. Page 23.
bi
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #4 on: 2024-05-02, 20:18:52 »
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You ask: "If there is supposedly no transition or neutral point then why is there always a break at the center?"

Because the so called "break" is actually an area where the external magnetic field is parallel to the N-S magnet axis AND also parallel to the Hall sensor. The same reasons that the middle of a magnet's surface causes a white strip on viewing film. The magnetic field is parallel to the plane of the film causing the magnetic particles to align with the plane of the film reflecting light giving a white appearance. All other areas of the film have magnetic field components perpendicular to the film plane causing these particles not to align therefore not to reflect and stay dark. Look it up.

I am aware that the magnetic field is said to be parallel to the magnet side wall N-S axis as depicted. However there are no field lines thus nothing to be parallel or perpendicular or not in reality. In reality the hall sensor is detecting the magnetic field polarity at a given point in space. It can be some magnitude of N or S or neither polarity. This video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oxfLNmsvSs&t=50s, shows the field polarity near the poles and a black band having no polarity near the center of the side wall. Nothing else should be inferred and the real data from a real experiment speaks for itself.

Quote
Attached is an excellent graphic from K & J Magnetics. No doubt it was calculated however I am confident that measurement of the external magnetic field with proper instruments would confirm.

The first problem is simulated or calculated versus doing a real experiment generating real data.

For example, the internet is littered with millions of simulated/calculated pictures identical to the ones you posted. However the video I posted where a real person actually scanned the magnetic field with real sensors was the first I had ever seen beyond my own work. In fact, real people actually doing real research in this specific area seems to be non-existent. How is it in this modern day and age only a hand full of people seem to have taken the time to actually try and map a magnetic field with real sensors to see what's actually happening?. It's beyond mind boggling and quite frankly embarrassing.

I'm really curious so when I discovered 99% of the pictures on the internet like yours are simply copy/pasted from textbooks or simulated I had to start doing real experiments for myself. It's the only way to know what's real and what's not in my opinion.

AC



---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  bistander
Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #5 on: 2024-05-02, 22:09:29 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-05-02, 20:18:52
bistander
I am aware that the magnetic field is said to be parallel to the magnet side wall N-S axis as depicted. However there are no field lines thus nothing to be parallel or perpendicular or not in reality. In reality the hall sensor is detecting the magnetic field polarity at a given point in space. It can be some magnitude of N or S or neither polarity. This video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oxfLNmsvSs&t=50s, shows the field polarity near the poles and a black band having no polarity near the center of the side wall. Nothing else should be inferred and the real data from a real experiment speaks for itself.

The first problem is simulated or calculated versus doing a real experiment generating real data.

For example, the internet is littered with millions of simulated/calculated pictures identical to the ones you posted. However the video I posted where a real person actually scanned the magnetic field with real sensors was the first I had ever seen beyond my own work. In fact, real people actually doing real research in this specific area seems to be non-existent. How is it in this modern day and age only a hand full of people seem to have taken the time to actually try and map a magnetic field with real sensors to see what's actually happening?. It's beyond mind boggling and quite frankly embarrassing.

I'm really curious so when I discovered 99% of the pictures on the internet like yours are simply copy/pasted from textbooks or simulated I had to start doing real experiments for myself. It's the only way to know what's real and what's not in my opinion.

AC

I don't seem to have any problem finding videos of demonstrations and experiments of tests confirming the shape of the magnetic field of a bar magnet. Google search for experimental magnetic field map. Here an interesting one using a 3-axis gaussmeter. Most use a simple compass. I have yet to see one disagree with the simulations.

https://youtu.be/jaPAgOkEAko?si=3AjCpW-EWoqpJFv6

bi
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #6 on: 2024-05-03, 16:49:57 »
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Quote from: bistander on 2024-05-02, 22:09:29
I don't seem to have any problem finding videos of demonstrations and experiments of tests confirming the shape of the magnetic field of a bar magnet. Google search for experimental magnetic field map. Here an interesting one using a 3-axis gaussmeter. Most use a simple compass. I have yet to see one disagree with the simulations.

https://youtu.be/jaPAgOkEAko?si=3AjCpW-EWoqpJFv6

bi

I'm not sure one video qualifies as many and the video reminds me of when I was an amateur in this field using linear hall sensors and my DSO. The obvious problem is that simply running along one path and plotting the results tells us very little. It's almost meaningless until we compare many paths and plot them within a three dimensional space.

For example, the picture below from a real magnetic field scanner, not a simulation, gives us much more information. However it's still lacking because the scan area is large and the resolution low. As well, the scan still uses primitive lines and loops where it should be singular points having a given field strength and polarity as a gradient of force. For example, the scan below wouldn't tell us that in a 1" x 1" N52 cylinder magnet the field strength along the pole face edge near to the side wall is twice as strong as the pole face center. The field is very concentrated in that specific area as it transitions from the face to the side wall.

The present field scanner I'm working on is pretty neat. It couples a MLX90393 3-axis magnetometer with a MPU-6050 3-axis gyro/accelerometer. We can calculate the present position of the sensor in a 3D space based on the direction, magnitude of acceleration and time from it's last position. There are no primitive wires, tracks, belts, no stepper motors or servos. Like a magic wand we slowly wave around a magnetic field source as it plots all the data within the 3 dimensional space on a laptop. I hope you can appreciate how much better and easier something like this would be versus the primitive video you posted.

AC







---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  CITFTA
Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #7 on: 2024-05-03, 17:46:25 »

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Believing in something false doesn't make it true.


You need to change the title of this thread as there is nothing in this thread about magnet motors.  You two nit-pickers deserve each other.  Have fun while the rest of us continue real research.



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Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #8 on: 2024-05-03, 19:35:22 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-05-03, 16:49:57
I'm not sure one video qualifies as many and the video reminds me of when I was an amateur in this field using linear hall sensors and my DSO. The obvious problem is that simply running along one path and plotting the results tells us very little. It's almost meaningless until we compare many paths and plot them within a three dimensional space.

For example, the picture below from a real magnetic field scanner, not a simulation, gives us much more information. However it's still lacking because the scan area is large and the resolution low. As well, the scan still uses primitive lines and loops where it should be singular points having a given field strength and polarity as a gradient of force. For example, the scan below wouldn't tell us that in a 1" x 1" N52 cylinder magnet the field strength along the pole face edge near to the side wall is twice as strong as the pole face center. The field is very concentrated in that specific area as it transitions from the face to the side wall.

The present field scanner I'm working on is pretty neat. It couples a MLX90393 3-axis magnetometer with a MPU-6050 3-axis gyro/accelerometer. We can calculate the present position of the sensor in a 3D space based on the direction, magnitude of acceleration and time from it's last position. There are no primitive wires, tracks, belts, no stepper motors or servos. Like a magic wand we slowly wave around a magnetic field source as it plots all the data within the 3 dimensional space on a laptop. I hope you can appreciate how much better and easier something like this would be versus the primitive video you posted.

AC

Hi AC,

Quote
picture below from a real magnetic field scanner, not a simulation, gives us much more information

Nice picture. Notice all the lines and loops. Attached below for convenience.

Quote
the scan below wouldn't tell us that in a 1" x 1" N52 cylinder magnet the field strength along the pole face edge near to the side wall is twice as strong as the pole face center.

Yet a simulation such as I posted would give that specific information. Attached again below.

bi
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #9 on: 2024-05-03, 19:44:17 »
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Quote from: CITFTA on 2024-05-03, 17:46:25

You need to change the title of this thread as there is nothing in this thread about magnet motors.  You two nit-pickers deserve each other.  Have fun while the rest of us continue real research.

Hi citfta,

Maybe your researchers and builders would waste less time and effort if they understood fundamentals, which might be what we are really discussing. Should all members be required to read and follow the "masterpiece" written by Mr. Wheeler, Bloch Walls and all?
Give me a break.
bi
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #10 on: 2024-05-03, 20:27:03 »

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Believing in something false doesn't make it true.


Consider this.  If you are standing behind a fan turning slowly and you see it is turning clockwise when you go around to the front of the fan you will see it is turning counterclockwise.  Now if you are standing directly at 90 degrees to the fan blades which way is it turning?



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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #11 on: 2024-05-03, 20:53:00 »
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Quote from: CITFTA on 2024-05-03, 20:27:03

Consider this.  If you are standing behind a fan turning slowly and you see it is turning clockwise when you go around to the front of the fan you will see it is turning counterclockwise.  Now if you are standing directly at 90 degrees to the fan blades which way is it turning?

Hi citfta,
I don't know.
Please explain the relevance. Do you equate the fan blades to a Bloch Wall? To the midpoint of a magnet? Do you think the magnetic field rotates?
bi
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #12 on: 2024-05-04, 09:49:07 »
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Quote from: CITFTA on 2024-05-03, 20:27:03

Consider this.  If you are standing behind a fan turning slowly and you see it is turning clockwise when you go around to the front of the fan you will see it is turning counterclockwise.  Now if you are standing directly at 90 degrees to the fan blades which way is it turning?

Depends on which side you are standing. It is a point of view situation, yes?
thay
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #13 on: 2024-05-04, 11:16:08 »

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Quote from: Thaelin on 2024-05-04, 09:49:07
Depends on which side you are standing. It is a point of view situation, yes?
thay

YES!! And the problem is most people refuse to accept that there may be another way of looking at things.

Carroll


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Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #14 on: 2024-05-04, 11:25:03 »
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The magnetic field rotates, but we see it as stationary. We look at a lake or a calm sea and the ship is not moving, so we can say that the sea is not moving, but everyone knows that there are currents under the surface. The same as we look at the sky. We don't see the wind until we see, for example, a bird or flying garbage.

That's how I see it. Maybe it's completely wrong, but looking at galaxies and atoms, for example, everything is in motion.
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #15 on: 2024-05-04, 13:41:33 »
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Quote from: CITFTA on 2024-05-04, 11:16:08
YES!! And the problem is most people refuse to accept that there may be another way of looking at things.

Carroll

citfta,

There are some interpretations, theories, beliefs, or 'ways of looking at things' which are either right or wrong.

That is my way of looking at it.

With the existing conventional scientific theories and knowledge base, engineers have designed electric machinery which powers civilization as we know it. All the electric motors and generators which operate extremely efficiently and whose magnetic characteristics are so well understood that they can be designed from scratch by those skilled engineers, all of whom know there is no Bloch Wall in the middle of a magnet. Show me one useful real device or system designed using a crackpot theory which has a Bloch Wall in the middle of a magnet and torsion magnetic field.

We both have seen individuals 'teaching' on these forums generator designs who don't even know electric circuit analysis let alone magnetic circuits. They follow the fantasy displayed with colorful graphics by some crackpot with a strong personality. If you required life saving surgery, would you choose a skilled surgeon or the artist who draws beautiful depictions of what he imagines your internal organs appear?

Right way / wrong way. Want results? One doesn't have to know what they're doing to experiment with magnets, but it would be beneficial if they did. How many consider the permeance coefficient when choosing a magnet for their magnet motor? But nonetheless, carry on.
bi
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #16 on: 2024-05-04, 23:32:34 »
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With the existing conventional scientific theories and knowledge base, engineers have designed electric machinery which powers civilization as we know it. All the electric motors and generators which operate extremely efficiently and whose magnetic characteristics are so well understood that they can be designed from scratch by those skilled engineers, all of whom know there is no Bloch Wall in the middle of a magnet. Show me one useful real device or system designed using a crackpot theory which has a Bloch Wall in the middle of a magnet and torsion magnetic field.

To my knowledge none of these highly trained people using existing conventional scientific theories ever invented a working magnetic motor.

Quote
Show me one useful real device or system designed using a crackpot theory which has a Bloch Wall in the middle of a magnet and torsion magnetic field

Funny you should ask, I invented a magnetic bearing based on the neutral zone theory years ago. Everyone was building magnetic bearings based on repulsion and they claimed a bearing using attraction was impossible. I was replicating the Wesley Gary magnetic motor at the time and was thinking about his neutral zone. Then it occurred to me that a three element system using two neutral zones could offset each other. In effect, if one attraction zone is pulling one way and another attraction zone pulling the opposite way then the two forces should balance producing zero force, a third neutral zone in the center.

I posted/open sourced this years ago and found almost everyone still couldn't figure it out even after I drew a picture. This is when I realized people can't see things there not looking for. It's like a blind spot and something can be staring them in the face yet they still cannot see it, it's strange. You see I can open source stuff that has some tangible value, you should try it.

AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  bistander
Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #17 on: 2024-05-05, 02:27:53 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-05-04, 23:32:34
bistander
To my knowledge none of these highly trained people using existing conventional scientific theories ever invented a working magnetic motor.

Funny you should ask, I invented a magnetic bearing based on the neutral zone theory years ago. Everyone was building magnetic bearings based on repulsion and they claimed a bearing using attraction was impossible. I was replicating the Wesley Gary magnetic motor at the time and was thinking about his neutral zone. Then it occurred to me that a three element system using two neutral zones could offset each other. In effect, if one attraction zone is pulling one way and another attraction zone pulling the opposite way then the two forces should balance producing zero force, a third neutral zone in the center.

I posted/open sourced this years ago and found almost everyone still couldn't figure it out even after I drew a picture. This is when I realized people can't see things there not looking for. It's like a blind spot and something can be staring them in the face yet they still cannot see it, it's strange. You see I can open source stuff that has some tangible value, you should try it.

AC

AC,

Nobody has designed a purely magnetic motor which works outputting power with no input power. What's your point?

Your magnetic bearing appears be a balanced force system. Where is the Bloch Wall design dependence? Is your invention patented? Is it being used to do useful work? Please post a proof of claim. A video of the 5 krpm 15kg rotor would be interesting. Then show the tangible value.

I copied and pasted the text from your diagram.

Quote
Theory of operation:

The attraction bearing is based on the fact that if one or more magnets is perfectly centered between two outer magnets the outer forces neutralize to become zero. That is the center load shaft is pulled neither right or left and almost no force is required to hold the load shaft at center. In one instance a 15 kilogram load rotating at 5000 rpm was fully supported and only 3 grams of force required to keep the load shaft centered. Thus the bearing is considered to be over 99% passive in it's nature.

What makes this bearing unique is that the load is only supported by magnetic shear forces within a neutral zone. That is, each magnet pair neutral zone in attraction is attracted from every direction inward. The load shaft is supported by this perfectly balanced force inward which also includes an upward force. Thus the load weight will attempt to shear the magnetic fields in attraction but produces no torce to the right or left.

The Neutral Zone concept is based on the fact that when two polar magnetic fields (N and S) merge the center between said fields in neither N or S in nature but neutral. This is true because one field cannot merge or interact with another field without a transition.

I say that your reasoning expressed in the last sentence is flawed.
bi
   
img  chief kolbacict
Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #18 on: 2024-05-05, 10:06:46 »

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Why does my magnet not wish to hang in the centre ? :(
I've tried a  bulk of magnets. Sticks to the wall. And so wanted miracul. >:(
« Last Edit: 2024-05-05, 11:15:01 by chief kolbacict »
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #19 on: 2024-05-05, 10:12:32 »
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Hello AC,
I spent some time on the K & J Magnetics website. Here are some articles and graphics from there which I think explain well the theory to which I subscribe.

https://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=magnetic-forces

Includes Magnetic Forces both normal and lateral to the pole surface graph.

________

https://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=shear-force

_______

https://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=there-are-no-poles

_________

https://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=fluxlines

_______
bi
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #20 on: 2024-05-05, 12:47:26 »

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Quote from: maxmalone on 2024-05-04, 11:25:03
That's how I see it. Maybe it's completely wrong, but looking at galaxies and atoms, for example, everything is in motion.
IMO everything is motion.  Motion is a ratio between space and time.
See this.
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #21 on: 2024-05-05, 13:15:37 »
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Quote from: chief kolbacict on 2024-05-05, 10:06:46
Why does my magnet not wish to hang in the centre ? :(
I've tried a  bulk of magnets. Sticks to the wall. And so wanted miracul. >:(

Just insert the stick into the center of the magnets :D O0
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #22 on: 2024-05-05, 13:37:04 »

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Believing in something false doesn't make it true.

Okay, I'll go out on a limb here and publically state I don't believe in a actual physical bloch wall.  I don't believe in a physical bloch wall because if you cut a magnet in half at the "bloch wall" you don't get a north half and a south half.  You get two magnets that each have a north end and a south end.  But if visualizing  a bloch wall helps someone understand the workiings of a magnet I also don't see a problem with that.

Bi keeps insisting we have to use the proper terminology when discussing technical things.  IF we were working with other engineers that would of course be necessary.  But since most of us are just experimenters as long as we understand each other the proper terminology is not strictly necessary.

I also don't believe in the nonsense being posted over and over again that we have to ignore what has already been discovered.  That is nonsense.  But we also need to consider that we still don't know a lot about some things.  Can anyone really explain how a magnet can create a field outside it's self that can be observed by like poles repelling and opposite poles attracting?  What is that field actually made up of?

My 2 cents,
Carroll


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Just because it is on YouTube does not make it real.
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #23 on: 2024-05-05, 16:24:33 »
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Quote from: CITFTA on 2024-05-05, 13:37:04
Okay, I'll go out on a limb here and publically state I don't believe in a actual physical bloch wall.  I don't believe in a physical bloch wall because if you cut a magnet in half at the "bloch wall" you don't get a north half and a south half.  You get two magnets that each have a north end and a south end.  But if visualizing  a bloch wall helps someone understand the workiings of a magnet I also don't see a problem with that.

Bi keeps insisting we have to use the proper terminology when discussing technical things.  IF we were working with other engineers that would of course be necessary.  But since most of us are just experimenters as long as we understand each other the proper terminology is not strictly necessary.

I also don't believe in the nonsense being posted over and over again that we have to ignore what has already been discovered.  That is nonsense.  But we also need to consider that we still don't know a lot about some things.  Can anyone really explain how a magnet can create a field outside it's self that can be observed by like poles repelling and opposite poles attracting?  What is that field actually made up of?

My 2 cents,
Carroll

Hi citfta,
Thanks for your 2¢.


"if visualizing  a bloch wall helps someone understand the workiings of a magnet I also don't see a problem with that."

The problem with that school of thought is that visualization leads to belief. And believing there is a wall, or division in the middle and that there's substantial differences on opposite sides, then it's interfering with true understanding. How can a magnet be truly efficiently applied in a magnetic circuit when the designer thinks "magnetism" enters the body of the magnet at the Bloch Wall. IMO, it's also an insult to Dr. Felix Bloch. At very least, these crackpots could use a different name for their fantasy barrier.

"What is that field actually made up of?"

What is gravity, or gravitational field made up of? I don't know. But that lack of the true nature doesn't prevent detailed characterization of the phenomenon and intelligent applications. No doubt we could do better if we knew the answer to your question. And I'm sure many smart people strive to find the answer for us.
bi
   
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Re: On the notion of a magnetic motor « Reply #24 on: 2024-05-05, 16:42:57 »
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bistander
Quote
Nobody has designed a purely magnetic motor which works outputting power with no input power. What's your point?

Your magnetic bearing appears be a balanced force system. Where is the Bloch Wall design dependence? Is your invention patented? Is it being used to do useful work? Please post a proof of claim. A video of the 5 krpm 15kg rotor would be interesting. Then show the tangible value.

The point was that my device is based on the idea of a neutral point or what some call a bloch wall which I agree is not a technically correct term. You asked for a useful device based on a supposed crackpot theory and I showed you one. In fact, I have many other useful devices based on this same crackpot theory. The bearing shown works well and when I gave it a half spin by hand two days later the rotor was still turning. Because 100% of the load is levitated it has very close to zero friction which is remarkable.

It also shows that everyone who claimed a magnetic bearing based on attraction is impossible were misguided. They were using flawed logic supposing that because a simple system cannot work then no system can work which is wrong. I simply added another magnet pair to balance the total force in the system and used the sliding/shear force to support the load. It shows that what everyone thought was impossible can actually be so simple even a child could understand it.

However I will concede that I could not build a 100% passive magnetic bearing. I could reduce it to 99.99% passive but never could break the 100% mark. In any case, it was fun building and testing this technology and it's open source so anyone can use it.

Which ultimately begs the question, if everyone was completely wrong about something this simple then what else could they be wrong about?. I mean literally everyone claimed a magnetic bearing based on attraction is impossible yet here it is.

AC


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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