Tetra Replication

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bte

Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #150 on: 2025-02-26, 18:36:12 »

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Posts: 308

It doesn't make sense to me to drive a large coil with sharp pulses at high frequencies from a traditional electronics standpoint, seems like they would reflect back. I'm hoping to get the interesting effects and see if what he says is true.

bte	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #151 on: 2025-02-26, 18:43:49 »
Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 308	More information on the effect I'm trying to replicate. ------------------------ Tetra Replication Screenshot_20250226_133954_Samsung Notes.jpg (776.73 kB, 1080x2107 - viewed 152 times.) Tetra Replication Screenshot_20250226_134107_Samsung Notes.jpg (683.83 kB, 1080x1675 - viewed 139 times.) Tetra Replication Screenshot_20250226_134236_Samsung Notes.jpg (183.05 kB, 1080x340 - viewed 147 times.)

verpies

Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #152 on: 2025-02-26, 22:34:30 »

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Posts: 3670

Quote from: bte on 2025-02-26, 18:36:12

It doesn't make sense to me to drive a large coil with sharp pulses at high frequencies from a traditional electronics standpoint, seems like they would reflect back.

I pulsed a 10 turn pancake coil with a picopulse.

See here what happened to that pulse... (read more of that thread to get a full picture).

Quote from: bte on 2025-02-26, 18:36:12

I'm hoping to get the interesting effects and see if what he says is true.

With a 1000s turn solenoidal coil of closely spaced fine wire, the nanopulse will take a radial shortcut through the inter-layer capacitance bypassing most of the copper turns.
That is the classical analysis. I can't predict if something non-classical happens...

verpies	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #153 on: 2025-02-27, 04:40:48 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	Quote from: bte on 2025-02-26, 18:43:49 More information on the effect I'm trying to replicate. This is all very non-classical so I cannot help you optimize the coil's construction. I just don't have sufficient knowledge of the non-classical rules. You will have to try both types of coils - ones with maximal ITC and ILC as well as ones with minimal ITC and ILC (e.g.: basket woven). Anyway, when pondering such phenomena, it is worth to take a look at this video and this video about applying a voltage pulse to a long wire. Quote from: Spherics This is why the rise time needs to be as sharp as possible. The trailing edge needs to be as sharp as possible so that the total pulse width from start of leading edge to end of trailing edge is as short as possible, to minimise the rise in current so only a very small magnetic field is generated. Indeed, pure inductive reactance will severely limit the current caused by a very short voltage pulse. This is the classical behavior of a choke. However, the current flowing through a capacitance will not be so limited. Also, the resistance of a long wire is not necssary to limit the current in pure inductance → the short pulse time is quite sufficient for this. If kilo-volt nanosecond pulses are the best for this purpose then only the DSRD nanopulser can generate them cheaply.

Itsu

Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #154 on: 2025-02-27, 13:29:36 »

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Posts: 4236

Verpies asked be to use my nano-pulser to measure the current through a spool of magnet wire.

I only had a spool of dual bonded magnet wire of 0.5mm diameter each (see picture) which i have put in bifilar mode.

It measures 45 Ohm and 114.5mH at 1kHz (at 10kHz i get no reading and the LCR meter switches over to capacitance (8.9nF)).

The screenshot of the scope shows in yellow the voltage across the spool, and in green the current through it (25A / div.).
Somehow the rise time did not want to registrate.

Itsu

------------------------

Tetra Replication

spool dual bonded wire small.png (566.9 kB, 603x619 - viewed 108 times.)

spool of dual bonded wire bifilar voltage yellow current green.png

Tetra Replication

spool of dual bonded wire bifilar voltage yellow current green.png (27.44 kB, 640x600 - viewed 115 times.)

bte	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #155 on: 2025-02-27, 13:39:54 »
Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 308	That's awesome, looks like a strong pulse. What is the current trace vertical div set to?

Itsu	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #156 on: 2025-02-27, 14:29:01 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4236	25A / div., see screenshot bottom in green Itsu

verpies	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #157 on: 2025-02-27, 14:38:07 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	Quote from: Itsu on 2025-02-27, 13:29:36 I only had a spool of dual bonded magnet wire of 0.5mm diameter each (see picture) which i have put in bifilar mode. There are 2 ways to connect it bifilarly. Which one did you choose ? Quote from: Itsu on 2025-02-27, 13:29:36 It measures 45 Ohm and 114.5mH at 1kHz (at 10kHz i get no reading and the LCR meter switches over to capacitance (8.9nF)). What is the capacitance between the green and red strand when they are not connected with each other ? What is the inductance of the green strand alone ? Quote from: Itsu on 2025-02-27, 13:29:36 The screenshot of the scope shows in yellow the voltage across the spool, and in green the current through it (25A / div.). Somehow the rise time did not want to registrate. For how long the voltage is high and the current is low in the beginning ? « Last Edit: 2025-02-27, 15:38:56 by verpies »

Itsu	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #158 on: 2025-02-27, 15:07:53 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4236	Quote There are 2 ways to connect it bifilarly. Which one did you choose ? I started with the red wire and connected its end to the start of the green wire and its end back to the red wire at the start Like in your drawing the top one. Quote What is the capacitance between the green and red strand when they are not connected with each other ? 47nF Quote What is the inductance of the green strand alone ? 29mH @ 10kHz Quote For how long the voltage is high and the current is low in the beginning ? Hmmm, not long, see this screenshot: ------------------------ Tetra Replication delay time v i.png (21 kB, 640x600 - viewed 44 times.) « Last Edit: 2025-02-27, 19:55:51 by Itsu »

verpies	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #159 on: 2025-02-27, 15:17:34 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	Quote from: Itsu on 2025-02-27, 15:07:53 Hmmm, not long, see this screenshot: Why is the rise time of the voltage so long ? I remember that your nanopulser could do better than that. Anyway, could we get a zoom between the two red lines ? ...starting as soon as the voltage begins to rise. ------------------------ Tetra Replication spool of dual bonded wire bifilar voltage yellow current green.png (28.08 kB, 640x600 - viewed 42 times.)

Itsu	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #160 on: 2025-02-27, 15:36:42 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4236	The rise time always was longer as the fall time, but it gets worse when using more induction / capacitance in the DUT (50 Ohm induction free resistor is the best). But perhaps i need to do some tuning.... Zoomed in using the yellow lines, see screenshot. I remember the A6302 current probe has a delay of about 24.5ns if i remember correctly (can't find it right now). ------------------------ Tetra Replication delay zoomed.png (28.66 kB, 640x600 - viewed 47 times.)

verpies	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #161 on: 2025-02-27, 15:40:34 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	Quote from: Itsu on 2025-02-27, 15:36:42 I remember the A6302 current probe has a delay of about 24.5ns if i remember correctly (can't find it right now). Oh! ...so it wasn't a CSR

Itsu	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #162 on: 2025-02-27, 15:43:15 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4236	Nope, but i can try one, but then i cannot measure the voltage at the same time, see screenshot (1 Ohm induction free resistor): ------------------------ Tetra Replication 1 Ohm inductionfree csr.png (25.43 kB, 640x600 - viewed 42 times.)

verpies	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #163 on: 2025-02-27, 16:55:04 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	Quote from: Itsu on 2025-02-27, 15:43:15 Nope, but i can try one, but then i cannot measure the voltage at the same time, see screenshot (1 Ohm induction free resistor): Could you move the CSR to the other side of the coil in order to create a common ground point for both the i & v signals ?

Itsu	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #164 on: 2025-02-27, 19:54:26 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4236	Well, the problem is more the fact that i need 2 HV probes, and i only have one which is reliable (tektronix). But i used 2, the Tek (x100) one for voltage (yellow) and the other one (x1000) for current (green). I have the 1 Ohm csr (again / still) on the low side (anode of the diode) with both probes ground leads on the anode. The current probe is then across the 1 Ohm csr and voltage probe across both 1 Ohm csr and spool of wire (so measuring the extra 1 Ohm). Diagram attached. I tuned the pulse driving the pulser to max, but there was not much gain. Screenshot below, green current, yellow Voltage: ------------------------ Tetra Replication V and I with HV probes.png (22.18 kB, 640x600 - viewed 45 times.) Tetra Replication nano pulser.png (63.99 kB, 861x509 - viewed 55 times.)

verpies	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #165 on: 2025-02-27, 22:01:29 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	Quote from: Itsu on 2025-02-27, 19:54:26 Well, the problem is more the fact that i need 2 HV probes, and i only have one which is reliable (tektronix). Yes, you need a HV probe to acquire the voltage signal but why do you need a HV probe across the CSR ? Quote from: Itsu on 2025-02-27, 19:54:26 I have the 1 Ohm csr (again / still) on the low side (anode of the diode) with both probes ground leads on the anode. Why not connect the ground leads of the two probes to the junction of the spool and CSR and the green probe tip to the anode of the DSRD and the yellow probe tip to cathode ? Quote from: Itsu on 2025-02-27, 19:54:26 The current probe is then across the 1 Ohm csr and voltage probe across both 1 Ohm csr and spool of wire (so measuring the extra 1 Ohm). Yeah that creates an error because the voltage drop across the CSR is added to the voltage signal but the CSR signal has relatively small amplitude. Quote from: Itsu on 2025-02-27, 19:54:26 Screenshot below, green current, yellow Voltage: The rise time of this pulse is too slow, but even with that flaw and the thick wire of the windings and their bifilar topology, it can be seen that the voltage rises ~30% before any current flows. I expected immediate current flow through the ~47nF ITC & ILC. This should make BTE happy.

bte	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #166 on: 2025-02-27, 22:14:18 »
Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 308	Very interesting. A few ns gap between voltage and current rise. BTW, do you think what Spherics calls the ether could be the Higgs field?

verpies	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #167 on: 2025-02-27, 22:30:58 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	Quote from: bte on 2025-02-27, 22:14:18 BTW, do you think what Spherics calls the ether could be the Higgs field? I would rather not discuss my take on theoretical physics here.

bte	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #168 on: 2025-02-27, 22:38:20 »
Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 308	Looks like a 10 ns delay between voltage/current rise. That's really interesting. Wonder if a magnetic field alters this timing at all?

verpies	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #169 on: 2025-02-27, 22:40:22 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	Quote from: bte on 2025-02-27, 22:38:20 Looks like a 10 ns delay between voltage/current rise. That's really interesting. Supposedly, with a shorter rise time of the voltage, larger copper mass and with a thinner wire and a different winding scheme that gap would be longer. Quote from: bte on 2025-02-27, 22:38:20 Wonder if a magnetic field alters this timing at all? You can talk to Itsu directly and ask him to check. He has large ceramic magnets and loves to experiment ...especially if it is usable.

bte	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #170 on: 2025-02-27, 22:48:11 »
Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 308	Hopefully once general parameters are established we can have multiple people researching different avenues in regards to the effects. It'll be a couple weeks due to China shipping delays until I can operate my device.

verpies	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #171 on: 2025-02-27, 22:55:31 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	Are you going to connect the programming inputs of the DS1023 together in a data bus ? What computer will you use to generate the programming pulses for the data bus and chip selects/latch enables?

bte	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #172 on: 2025-02-27, 23:14:00 »
Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 308	This initial unit is going to be manually controlled. When I go for automated testing I'll probably use an demux and latch like how cpu peripherals work. So dip switches for now. I'll replace with a latch when transitioning to automatic computer controlled testing/data logging. Probably gonna use a raspberry pi to leverage my Linux knowledge but back in high school we had these fancy dedicated data logging boxes that plugged in via USB. Seemed way easier than messing with adc scaling, quantization, sampling rate nyquist artifacts, etc...

verpies	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #173 on: 2025-02-28, 02:09:14 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3670	Quote from: bte on 2025-02-27, 23:14:00 So dip switches for now. I'll replace with a latch when transitioning to automatic computer controlled testing/data logging. So you will need to go with the parallel programming mode. If you connect all the P0-P7 inputs together (which I recommend), you will need 8 DIP switches (or better yet: 2 rotary 4-bit switches) and 8 pull-up resistors and 1 momentary switch (or push-down knob) and 1 pull-up resistor for each LE input of the DS1023 chip (no multiplexers necessary). These chips have built-in latches so you don't need anything else. I have a RS-232C port in my PC so I would use that to program the DS1023 chips in serial mode. If I did not have that port, I would use an Arduino with rotary encoders because it does not require kernel mode drivers for bitwise access to the digital I/O ports/pins. « Last Edit: 2025-02-28, 09:40:49 by verpies »

bte	Re: Tetra Replication « Reply #174 on: 2025-02-28, 02:25:27 »
Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 308	Good call on the rotary switch. Yeah parallel mode. They're going to be on a common bus w chip select. Raspberry pi has gpio exposed to userspace also. I built a cpu that runs forth, maybe I'll hook that badboy up