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OverUnity Research > General - Free Energy Related > Miscellaneous Discussions (Moderator: Allcanadian) > What is wrong with science today
2024-11-28, 09:43:01
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Author Topic: What is wrong with science today  (Read 12626 times)
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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #75 on: 2024-04-11, 12:45:26 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-04-11, 00:57:44

So in effect countless physics students have been falsely taught many imaginary things are real. In effect the foundation they are basing many other effects on like closed loops, rotations and vortexes which are also imaginary is also a lie. Could it get any worse?, I'm not sure how.

AC

Show me a reputable source of mainstream science or conventional physics that teaches magnetic lines of force are real physical entities or that a magnetic field rotates on its NS axis.

Thanks,
bi

ps. Physics students are taught about conservative forces, still, I hope, which it seems is a theory to which you don't subscribe. Ref. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_force
   
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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #76 on: 2024-04-11, 14:22:25 »

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Quote from: bistander on 2024-04-11, 12:45:26
Show me a reputable source of mainstream science or conventional physics that teaches magnetic lines of force are real physical entities or that a magnetic field rotates on its NS axis.

Thanks,
bi

ps. Physics students are taught about conservative forces, still, I hope, which it seems is a theory to which you don't subscribe. Ref. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_force

Bi
Do you have any thoughts on what the field actually is around the body of a PM?


Brad


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #77 on: 2024-04-11, 14:37:29 »
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Quote from: TinMan on 2024-04-11, 14:22:25
Bi
Do you have any thoughts on what the field actually is around the body of a PM?


Brad

Hi Brad,
I think it is what is referred to as a force field, similar to gravity. I can't begin to explain what it actually is. Maybe a condition in space caused by electric charges.
Regards,
bi
   
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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #78 on: 2024-04-12, 14:09:24 »
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The magnetic field is a vector field, i.e. characterized by a given norm and direction, defined at any point in space, and whose presence translates into the existence of a force acting on moving electric charges (known as the Lorentz force).

It's nothing more than that, and anything not compatible with this definition is not a magnetic field.
All these notions are pure mathematical definitions used to model observations. It is even remarkable that we can use the concept of potential instead of field, and model electromagnetism as well. We can also use relativity to model the magnetic field from the electric field, and that works too.

To believe that the magnetic field is a real physical entity is to confuse the map with the territory.
That's why redefining it differently, as I often see in the blah blah around the FE, is naive if not stupid, since its "existence" is an intellectual concept, that of those who defined it, and if you have another one, you'll have to call it something other than "magnetic field" and define it yourself.


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #79 on: 2024-04-12, 15:10:46 »
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Quote from: bistander on 2024-04-11, 12:45:26
Show me a reputable source of mainstream science or conventional physics that teaches magnetic lines of force are real physical entities or that a magnetic field rotates on its NS axis.
...

Good point!   ;)


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #80 on: 2024-04-13, 01:48:49 »

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author=F6FLT link=topic=4629.msg111567#msg111567 date=1712927364]




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The magnetic field is a vector field, i.e. characterized by a given norm and direction, defined at any point in space, and whose presence translates into the existence of a force

Great.
But what is this field of force ?

Quote
To believe that the magnetic field is a real physical entity is to confuse the map with the territory.

How can you state that the field is not a real physical entity without knowing what that field is?
If it can apply a real physical force, then it must be a real physical entity.




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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #81 on: 2024-04-13, 06:58:28 »
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I found it helps to understand the history of science from a psychological point of view.

Man used to use words and symbols to describe everything however this does not help with calculating something. Man wanted to build more complicated stuff and teach others how to build so they invented an imaginary system they called numbers and math. Over time some worshiped the number systems in the same way others worshiped gods. They saw imaginary patterns in the numbers and it became something in itself. To the extent they replaced reality with there patterns of numbers.

For example, Einstein was clueless as to what a field was in reality so he changed the patterns of numbers ie. the measures of time and space became variable so the math works. Einstein said, "if the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts". Change the facts?, in other words cheat and make up whatever they need to in order to make the math work because math is everything to them.

In fact we see this psychological defect in every aspect of society. Drug addicts think wasted is normal not sober, business thinks greed is normal not sharing, physicists think patterns of numbers and equations is normal not so much reality. City people think overpopulation, smog, crime and ambulance sirens are normal but there not outside the city. Every group which becomes too immersed in there own beliefs becomes deluded over time to some extent including free energy. This is why it's really important to do real experiments and gather our own facts.

AC

« Last Edit: 2024-04-13, 18:51:12 by Allcanadian »


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #82 on: 2024-04-13, 18:24:58 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-04-13, 06:58:28
...Einstein said, "if the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts"
...

Which of his writings are you talking about? Source, reference?


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #83 on: 2024-04-13, 18:28:51 »
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Quote from: TinMan on 2024-04-13, 01:48:49
...
But what is this field of force ?
...

We've just said that these concepts are not physical realities but tools for describing what we observe, and you're back to asking the question of existence using the word "is", which of course can have no answer other than the one already given.

Before talking about the limits of science, or even asserting that it is wrong, the first thing is to reflect on the limits of one's own knowledge.
When I was getting back into the swing of things, having given up physics a long time ago, it took me ten years or so to get to grips with relativity, even though I'd studied the subject in university. The concept became a simple, common-sense way of explaining so much of what we observe, even though I know very little about calculating in GR.
Do you think it's possible to understand this kind of thing, or even the question you asked, without ever working hard to understand the basics of physics, without spending time taking courses, without doing practical equation-solving exercises?!

And if we don't understand it, how can we say it's wrong or incomplete? Certainly, if science is reduced to what those who have never studied it understand, a mediocre popularization, it is false. I think that's why it's so decried in the FE movement.
We're all ignorant to one degree or another, but there are two kinds of ignorant: those who understand that they have limits and that those smarter than they are can guide them, so they can learn before they fly on their own, and those who judge from the height of their ignorance that what seems too complicated to them is wrong, so they'll never progress since their prejudices are enough for them.


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #84 on: 2024-04-13, 20:05:54 »
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The majority of physicists seem to believe the magnetic field is "virtual particles popping in and out of existence",  possibly from other universes.

Quote
A virtual particle is a theoretical transient particle that exhibits some of the characteristics of an ordinary particle, while having its existence limited by the uncertainty principle, which allows the virtual particles to spontaneously emerge from vacuum at short time and space ranges.

The contradiction is that they also believe a particle is just a moving wave or ripple in a field where a virtual particle is a disturbance in a field. The key concept is that your reality is supposedly imaginary and matter is just some silly moving waves and fields jiggling waves magically existing in something they call "the vacuum". The vacuum an imaginary fabric, think Aether, where the moving and jiggling waves sometimes exist.

Sounds familiar doesn't it?, the new physics is basically the old Aether physics with new terms, new math and a few new twists.

In effect, they solved the Michelson–Morley problem by creating an imaginary fabric/medium called the vacuum and fudging the math by making time and distance variable. So in reality the new physics is just a different flavor of the old physics and nobody has a clue what's really going on.

AC


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #85 on: 2024-04-13, 22:47:56 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-04-13, 20:05:54
The majority of physicists seem to believe the magnetic field is "virtual particles popping in and out of existence",  possibly from other universes.

AC

I don't believe that is a true statement. So I asked elsewhere:

Quote
Do the majority of physicists seem to believe the magnetic field is "virtual particles popping in and out of existence",  possibly from other universes?

ChatGPT
No, that's not a commonly accepted explanation for the magnetic field among physicists. The magnetic field is typically described by classical electromagnetism or quantum field theory, which doesn't involve virtual particles from other universes. It's more about the interaction of charged particles and their fields.

I think the answer from chatgpt is far more likely to be the truth.
bi
   
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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #86 on: 2024-04-13, 23:20:05 »
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Quote from: TinMan on 2024-04-13, 01:48:49

Great.
But what is this field of force ?

How can you state that the field is not a real physical entity without knowing what that field is?
If it can apply a real physical force, then it must be a real physical entity.

Hi Brad,

I tend to agree with you that since it applies real forces, then it is something real. Gravity is certainly real. But with real things or real effects, when invisible, we will devise constructs or visualizations to aid in understanding and communication about the subject. That is what magnetic lines of force are. Nobody I know thinks the lines of force are the real "thing" which applies the force on a charge.

And BTW, in the diagram, the pink lines are not magnetic lines of force nor do they represent B-field, flux density. They are a depiction of the A-field, magnetic vector potential. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_vector_potential

I think both diagrams are correct.
bi
   
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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #87 on: 2024-04-14, 03:16:11 »

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Quote from: bistander on 2024-04-13, 23:20:05
Hi Brad,

I tend to agree with you that since it applies real forces, then it is something real. Gravity is certainly real. But with real things or real effects, when invisible, we will devise constructs or visualizations to aid in understanding and communication about the subject. That is what magnetic lines of force are. Nobody I know thinks the lines of force are the real "thing" which applies the force on a charge.

And BTW, in the diagram, the pink lines are not magnetic lines of force nor do they represent B-field, flux density. They are a depiction of the A-field, magnetic vector potential. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_vector_potential

I think both diagrams are correct.
bi

The diagrams were to show the fields and their gradients, not to indicate some lines of force.

As i have always said, what ever this separation is around the PM body, it is in a 3 dimensional figure 8--like an hour glass.
The lines depicting the B field are incorrect, as there is no field, and so no flux density at the center point between the two ends of a PM.

Example--Quote: A magnetic field is an invisible force field created by a magnet which exists all around it

That is incorrect.
The field does not exist all around a PM.
It exists only at each end, and becomes neutral at the center between these two opposite fields.

What ever this field is, it is the anti field to that which man creates.
Example--If we flow a current through a wire, and create a magnetic field around that wire, the field of a PM will reject that man made magnetic field around the wire.
The wire with current flowing through it, will always only stick to the center of the PM body, as it is rejected by both fields at each end of the PM body.
The rotation of the field around the wire determines as to which way the wire will travel to the center of the PM body.
The current carrying wire sticks to the center of the PM body, as there is no field at the center to reject it.


Brad


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #88 on: 2024-04-15, 04:57:34 »

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Quote from: TinMan on 2024-04-14, 03:16:11

What ever this field is, it is the anti field to that which man creates.
Example--If we flow a current through a wire, and create a magnetic field around that wire, the field of a PM will reject that man made magnetic field around the wire.
The wire with current flowing through it, will always only stick to the center of the PM body, as it is rejected by both fields at each end of the PM body.
The rotation of the field around the wire determines as to which way the wire will travel to the center of the PM body.
The current carrying wire sticks to the center of the PM body, as there is no field at the center to reject it.


Brad

Ok, so obvious question, as I haven't thought from this angle before: why is the wire with the generated field even attracted to the PM?

Couple of thoughts, if it is spin that determines polarity at either end of the magnet, that alludes to a field rotating - as in the case of your wire being repelled in determineable direcitons. If the PM were freely suspended, could you run two wires with generated fields like skipping ropes in opposite directions around it?

If spin determines polarity, is it possible that the angle of spin is at its most 'optimum' to become dominant at each end of the PM - however that optimum only exists for a short period within its cyclical field path before passing back through a zero zone where angle is changing, resulting in a changed spin direction and re-appearing at the opposite pole to repeat the process?

   
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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #89 on: 2024-04-15, 14:49:02 »
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Quote from: TinMan on 2024-04-14, 03:16:11
...
The current carrying wire sticks to the center of the PM body, as there is no field at the center to reject it.
...

The current carrying wire sticks to the center of the PM body, because the moving charges on the wire feel the electric field of the moving charges in the PM as the fields are no longer seen to be isotropic around the charges due to their relative motion. So the electric field of the positive charges of the atomic nuclei is no longer cancelled out by that of the electrons (the "motion" of the charges in the PM being mainly due to spins).

Elementary phenomena between charges easily explain all this. It's the same explanation as the attraction between wires carrying a current, see this course extract.




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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #90 on: 2024-04-15, 16:43:28 »
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It is really not all that complicated.  Sorry for the poor quality sketch below but it simply is the result of attracting or repelling magnetic fields as to how the inducing wire is positioned on the PM depending on polarity.

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Pm
   
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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #91 on: 2024-04-16, 15:38:20 »
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The magnetic field is merely a mathematical artifice of Maxwell's classical electromagnetism.

It's much simpler to think in terms of a single field, the electric field, and a single force: the electric force F=q.E.

When charges move (currents in wires, or spins in PMs), then the electric field is E=VxB and we always have F=q.E, which in this case is called the Laplace force.

If you imagine the magnetic field as a "reality", apart from the fact that it's not what physics says, you've chosen the worst field of all, since it's only a relativistic effect of the much more fundamental electric field. If there is a reality (a reality that depends on the observer), the reality of the magnetic field is only that of the electric field.


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #92 on: 2024-04-16, 23:42:31 »
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The magnetic field is merely a mathematical artifice of Maxwell's classical electromagnetism.

This is illogical because the magnetic field will always exist and doesn't require people or math.
You make it sound as if science was a religion and Maxwell created magnetism, lol. Nature has limits while mans ego and stupidity have none. 

Quote
If you imagine the magnetic field as a "reality", apart from the fact that it's not what physics says, you've chosen the worst field of all, since it's only a relativistic effect of the much more fundamental electric field. If there is a reality (a reality that depends on the observer), the reality of the magnetic field is only that of the electric field.

The easy explanation is that a changing electric field produces a changing magnetic field. A changing magnetic field produces a changing electric field.

In effect, a changing electric field produces a changing magnetic field, which produces a changing electric field, which produces a changing magnetic field and so on. So it's easier to simply call the phenomena Electro-Magnetism.

For example, if we shake a magnet in our hand it produces very weak low frequency Electro-Magnetic waves in the surrounding space. Shake the magnet very fast and modulate the shaking and we have a radio wave transmitter. You see no fancy words, math or equations are required and it's pretty easy to understand.

AC




« Last Edit: 2024-04-17, 16:47:32 by Allcanadian »


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #93 on: 2024-04-17, 02:47:15 »

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Quote from: TinMan on 2024-03-28, 03:57:14
Just a general chat about science today, and the flaws that surround it.

Along the same theme,
a long-time physicist laments how the dreams she pursued in physics slowly crumbled as the field turned out to be more focused on chasing the next round of grant money than seeking truth and making real scientific progress.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKiBlGDfRU8


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #94 on: 2024-04-17, 12:55:31 »

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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-04-16, 23:42:31
F6FLT
This is illogical because the magnetic field will always exist and doesn't require people or math.
You make it sound as if science was a religion and Maxwell created magnetism, lol. Nature has limits while mans ego and stupidity have none. 

The easy explanation is that a changing electric field produces a changing magnetic field. A changing magnetic field produces a changing electric field.

In effect, a changing electric field produces a changing magnetic field, which produces a changing electric field, which produces a changing magnetic field and so on. So it's easier to simply call the phenomena Electro-Magnetism.

For example, if we shake a magnet in our hand it produces very weak low frequency Electro-Magnetic waves in the surrounding space. Shake the magnet very fast and modulate the shaking and we have a radio wave transmitter. You seen no fancy words, math or equations are required and it's pretty easy to understand.

AC

Actually, moving a PM around, does not produce an electric field.
The electric field comes from the conductor the PM field is changing in relation to.


Brad


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #95 on: 2024-04-17, 15:06:07 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-04-16, 23:42:31
...
In effect, a changing electric field produces a changing magnetic field, which produces a changing electric field, which produces a changing magnetic field and so on. So it's easier to simply call the phenomena Electro-Magnetism.
...

Typical example of a lack of scientific knowledge replaced by misunderstood popularization, linking phenomena with no relation of cause and effect.

If electrical devices influence each other at a distance, it's because the charges are subject to an electrical force. This force is the cause of the effect.

The only known electric force is F=q.E. When there's a magnetic field, E=E1+E2 with E1 the coulombic electric field and E2 the vector product VxB, the electric field resulting from the movement of charges, which is the deformation of an electric field by the relativistic effect of length contraction (see Bikerstaff's course cited above).


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #96 on: 2024-04-17, 15:30:37 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-04-16, 23:42:31
F6FLT
...the magnetic field will always exist and doesn't require people or math.
...

Wrong.

Observers co-moving with charges don't see a magnetic field.

The reason is obvious : as the speed is relative and the magnetic field is an effect of the speed of the charges, it can't be absolute.



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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #97 on: 2024-04-17, 19:33:19 »
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Quote from: TinMan on 2024-04-17, 12:55:31
Actually, moving a PM around, does not produce an electric field.
The electric field comes from the conductor the PM field is changing in relation to.

I think it's problematic because if a changing magnetic field did not produce a changing electric field even in a vacuum then there could be no such thing as EM waves. The premise of an Electro-Magnetic wave is that the Electric and Magnetic fields alternately induce each other E-B-E-B-E-B-E in space.

So when we move a magnet near a conductor the magnetic field acts on the electric field of a charge carrier like an electron causing the electron to move. We call the motion of the charge carrying electrons an electric current. Here we need to understand the difference between an electric field, a charge carrier like an electron which carries an electric field with it and an electric current which is made of moving charge carriers.

It seems to me many may be confusing an electric field and particles like an electron which carry an electric field with it. Normally the Primary Fields (Electric, Magnetic and Gravic) are considered a property of space. This is true because the fields can exist and interact in the vacuum of space supposedly devoid of matter.

If a changing magnetic field cannot produce a changing electric field then how do we explain Electro-Magnetic waves in a vacuum?.

AC


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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #98 on: 2024-04-17, 21:08:11 »
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Personally, I've had functional comprehension of the theory and application of electromagnetics without needing to apply special relativity. Taking a brief search of opinions on the subject, I found the following, which I think expressed my view well.
bi

Quote
The "magnetic field" is a concept within classical electrodynamics. Maxwell's equations were developed in the mid 19th century at a time where basic atomic physics was still a nascent field of study.

Viewed in the contemporary historical context, a permanent magnet is a perfectly fine example of a magnetic field without an electric field. Within the theory of classical electrodynamics, there is no explanation for why the magnetic field exists, only that it does exist, and how it's related to the electric field. Permanent magnets have a magnetic field as an intrinsic, fundamental property, similar to the reasons rocks have mass. They just do.

In the past one and a half centuries other theories have been developed. For example the magnetic field can be explained by special relativity as length contraction apparently creating a charge imbalance, so it could be said the magnetic field doesn't exist as a fundamental property but is rather a manifestation of the electric field in moving reference frame, and quantum physics explains permanent magnets as moving charges at sub-atomic scales.

So viewed in the context of modern physics, there's really no need for a fundamental magnetic field at all since it can be explained in terms of the electric field and motion.

The discovery of a magnetic monopole would change this, but although it would bring an elegant symmetry to the kinds of particles that exist, no evidence of a magnetic monopole has been found by experiment yet.

Source: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/413741/can-a-magnetic-field-exist-without-an-electric-field-present
   
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Re: What is wrong with science today « Reply #99 on: 2024-04-18, 01:49:51 »

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much of science relies on...
   
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