The Patent Of William Barbat

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altair

Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #25 on: 2010-12-15, 23:40:09 »

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Quote from: ION on 2010-12-15, 17:45:29

Several mysteries with this patent:

1. Why does Barbat not put his "sending coil" co-axially inside a magnifying coil made of copper tubing with a treated inside surface (photoconductive) such that all of the photonic induction can impinge on the inside surface of the magnifying coil tube.

A co-axial approach such as this would minimize radiated losses. Alternately a long copper pipe with inside surface treated and co-axial with a wire running from end to end as the sending coil. With suitably spaced insulating washers or beads, this assembly could be wound into a coil and put into a pot core to completely contain stray fields.

Ion,
the sending coil can not be coaxial with the magnifying coil because the electrokinetic effect of the photons hitting the magnifying coil generates a current which is in the same direction as the current in the sending coil.
Trying to use the self-inductance effect of co-axial coils would generate a current which is in the opposite direction, thereby cancelleing the desired gain.
Barbat's design and placement of coils is already optimised as much as possible, even if it looks "crude" at first sight.
The only coils that can benefit from co-axial placement are the maginfying coil and the output coil, and their currents are in opposition. Here, close coupling is a benefit. See the arrows in the drawings. See paragraph 0137 in the patent.

This patent is exemplary in all its facets, and deserves study. I printed it so I could underline / highlight the important parts, and there a re LOTS of them.

Barbat is obviously onto something big. It's like a new branch of physics !

Here are just a few paragraphs of importance: 57, 90, end of 152.

In my opinion, this is the most promising new energy device that doesn't use the aether as its main power source. It rather looks "conventional", much like photocells or photodetectors.
The only info missing in the patent is what is the physical size required for a given output, at what fraquency does this works best (very high, I assume), and how to easily make a satisfactory coating (at home) with semiconductors.
I have been wanting to duplicate this for the last year and a half, what's holding me ?

Altair

Grumpy

Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #26 on: 2010-12-16, 00:05:50 »

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His "mode of operation" sounds like "electromagnetic induction", with a little boost from the semiconductor coating:

(my BS meter is in the red zone!)

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The Patent Of William Barbat

Barbat_mode of operation.PNG (45.7 kB, 384x494 - viewed 1599 times.)

tak22

Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #27 on: 2010-12-16, 00:27:13 »

Newbie

Posts: 18

I can't stop!

Thanks to all for your enthusiasm and attention to this Barbat 'thing'.

I've had it central in my OU thoughts for years and have never been able to drum
up this much thinking on it from others.

I have 10 days of vacation coming up over the holidays and ideas be willing I'll spend
as much of it as I can on this. If you have ideas for simple proof of concept testing
I'm open to trying it, provided I have or can get what's needed.

tak

poynt99

Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #28 on: 2010-12-16, 00:34:05 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...

Barbat is basing the gain mechanism on the notion that there is such a thing as "low mass electrons" $:-\$ vs. "normal mass electrons".

Perhaps I don't understand his description of what they are and how they are produced, but IMHO this is the weak point of his patent application. Without the existence of these "low mass electrons" and the method to conjuring them up (which is also sketchy), there is no device.

I also get the distinct impression from reading the patent, that it is all theoretical based, i.e. he has no device to demonstrate. It all sounds good, and it appears he's done a fair bit of homework there is no doubt about that, but I also get the impression that he wanted a venue to write a paper and make his mark in pseudo-science.

Why doesn't someone contact Barbat and invite him here? I'd like to hear a description of a POC device he has made.

.99

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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

altair	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #29 on: 2010-12-16, 00:55:58 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-12-16, 00:05:50 His "mode of operation" sounds like "electromagnetic induction", with a little boost from the semiconductor coating: (my BS meter is in the red zone!) However he states that the "energy magnification factor" of photoconductive compounds can go from the 30s up to 5100 for indium antimonide. If this factor is even remotely related to the input:output current ratio, this would account for much more than "a little boost" IMHO. Ramset, if you're in contact with Mr Barbat, could you ask him if this is replicable exactly as is from the patent, or is there anything more we should know. We can get cadmium sulfide powder here: http://www.americanelements.com/ , or many other compounds. Altair

Chet K

Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #30 on: 2010-12-16, 01:23:26 »

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Altair
I asked him if he had this working ,his responce was yes, but the coils were very fragile
and not dependable.
his next issue was chemical related,he said those issues are resolved now.

I asked him if he ever shared this publicly,he said he has shared with a few but never without an NDA.

I can no doubt make another call,we had a very pleasant conversation,and I did say that a friend of mine might be in contact, because he was also fascinated with this patent and all the lost science that was discussed in it.[I used Grumpy's first name as my friend, which he posted here one time a while back]

I can't tell people my friends are all anonymous!!
He knows My name ,Chet kremens!

I don't want to pester him ,but he did make reference to a study done on Low mass electrons and super conductors by a person that I thought he said was joseph Larmar or Lamar [I never ask a person to repeat themselves,It interupts the flow]

Not sure he wants to open source as the NDA comment and he said he has a company very interested of late.

But I most certainly will call him again if asked to by this group with specific questions.
Chet
PS I told him we were a group of friends that studied these lost sciences ,and were totaly floored by his patent,and what a wonderful read it was!
PPS
Grumpy has the best "inn", as I said he would most likely be calling in the near future.

« Last Edit: 2010-12-16, 01:51:21 by ramset »

Chet K	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #31 on: 2010-12-16, 01:56:37 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4052	Also I asked him if there were any "elements"[isotopes and such] involved,he said no and thats when he rattled off the fellows name and the reference to Low density electrons and semi /super conductor research . That this was what it was based on,the diference in acceleration making something happen accelleration being emphasized several times! Chet

altair	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #32 on: 2010-12-16, 02:25:54 »
Group: Guest	Great, Ramset, I understand his concern about the NDA. However, as the patent is so thoroughly explained, it's almost impossible that there won't be any replications. I wonder if he would consider officially coaching the group here on a few replicas... But of course, he would soon find out that everybody here is anonymous. : Regarding acceleration, it is interesting that in paragraph 55 he states that inductive photons are continually radiated, when the electric charges move in a curving motion ! Centrifugal force affecting currents, I've seen reference to that somewhere else, but can't find it now. Altair

Grumpy	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #33 on: 2010-12-16, 02:29:42 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	that was Joseph Larmor Barbat talks about all of this in his patent app From what he says about "low mass electrons" it sounds like he conjured them up to explain an anomalous magnetic field or current.

poynt99	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #34 on: 2010-12-16, 03:15:02 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3216 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	"Low Mass Electron" Is that referring to it's effective or real mass? .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

poynt99	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #35 on: 2010-12-16, 03:46:32 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3216 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	I would suggest that Barbat is referring to an effective mass when referring to a Low Mass Electron (LME). Doesn't it make sense that under an applied force (i.e. an electric field), an electron would accelerate easier and travel with a higher drift velocity in a superconductor vs. a "normal" conductor? Its kinetic energy is increased because the energy imparted to the electron is retained vs. given up to heated collisions. So, the behavior is effectively like that of a particle of lower mass. Barring relativistic effects though, m_e never changes. Photon excitation is another story. In semiconductors, it can cause electron flow. I still fail to see the reality of a LME. If there is indeed an effect with Barbat's devices, I doubt it has anything to do with LME's, because they don't really exist. .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Grumpy	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #36 on: 2010-12-16, 04:19:41 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	There is another way that was only explored thoroughly by Tesla and no one since him. This is what Barbat hit on an tried to explain with the low mass electrons. Reading his explanation, he was not aware of Tesla's work with electrostatic induction or even Faraday's. The current induced by electrostatic induction is much faster than drift velocity - several orders of magnitude faster. Stand near a high voltage DC power line when a switching transient moves down the line and you may not survive. ES-Induced current is proportional to the rate of rise, voltage, and is cumulative. Barbat blows right past it like everyone else. Come on NSA, let's have a few beers!

poynt99	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #37 on: 2010-12-16, 04:34:57 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3216 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	There are no high dV/dt's nor necessarily any high frequencies used in Barbat's device. It works as a resonant tank, and any frequency range can be used, as per the patent. So I doubt ES induction has much if anything to do with the effect, if indeed there is one. Barbat gives this clue:, RF transmission and reception. Regarding the speed of current via ES induction and conduction current; there is little difference in speed. Only difference is in the velocity the electrons travel. .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Grumpy	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #38 on: 2010-12-16, 04:52:09 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: poynt99 on 2010-12-16, 04:34:57 There are no high dV/dt's nor necessarily any high frequencies used in Barbat's device. It works as a resonant tank, and any frequency range can be used, as per the patent. So I doubt ES induction has much if anything to do with the effect, if indeed there is one. Barbat gives this clue:, RF transmission and reception. .99 ES induction IS THE EFFECT. Several years of work has culminated on that single fact. TPU, Kapanadze, Hendershot, all of them - ALL ES PRINCIPLES! Look at Barbat again. That shorted coil has nothing to do with a resonant tank. Look at what Telsa said about shorted coils. Tesla went on to utilize the large current in this shorted coil to develop several devices including motors. He used heavy conductors as the current was quite large. Been there the whole time... Do not make the same mistake that was made 100 years ago and discard ES induction! Consider this: ES induction will cause a current to flow to or from an earth ground. What if the conductor is connected to a dipole like a battery or cap? Ah-ha! it charges it! Remember! You read it hear first!

ion

Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #39 on: 2010-12-16, 07:47:00 »

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It's turtles all the way down

Thank you all for your contributions to this thread. So many have come out of the woodwork to make interesting posts.

Thanks again to Chet for being OUR intermediary to Mr. Barbat. Maybe if he comes here he will see the energy and enthusiasm all of you have offered, and he will have some willing hands and minds to help.

It should not be too difficult to detect a DC current flow in a shorted pancake loop that has been treated(if it exists). Opposite points can be probed, or a compass will detect a circulating current by the magnetic field produced.

The point is, the flow will be DC. Barbat used an auxiliary LC in the patent to generate an AC current. I don't believe this will work without a semiconductor switch, but who knows, if the electrons are fast enough and can change direction quickly it might.

A light source, RF antenna or electrostatic induction technique such as that of Lewey Gilstrap can be used as an excitation source.

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pat3964051.pdf (295.61 kB - downloaded 521 times.)

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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy

BEP	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #40 on: 2010-12-16, 08:34:24 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2010-12-16, 03:46:32 I still fail to see the reality of a LME. If there is indeed an effect with Barbat's devices, I doubt it has anything to do with LME's, because they don't really exist. .99 Are you aware of low mass electron/positron pairs? LMEs do exist but there mass is relative to the observer. The way I understand it... the low mass electrons have a low relative mass as seen by an observer having relative velocity. The LMEs may be unmoving or slow moving. So, Barbat is having a coil with no or drift current within coils acting as observers with higher relative velocity?? Strange enough but surely a bit above Barbat's head.

poynt99	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #41 on: 2010-12-16, 13:37:31 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3216 It's not as complicated as it may seem...	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2010-12-16, 08:34:24 Are you aware of low mass electron/positron pairs? LMEs do exist but there mass is relative to the observer. The way I understand it... the low mass electrons have a low relative mass as seen by an observer having relative velocity. The LMEs may be unmoving or slow moving. So, Barbat is having a coil with no or drift current within coils acting as observers with higher relative velocity?? Strange enough but surely a bit above Barbat's head. Yes, but I did not mention it because I see no relation to what Barbat is calling a LME. Also, "Low Mass" when stated along with "Electron/Positron pair", is a loosely-used added term. The created pair has the mass of 2m_e, so the total mass is actually greater than a single electron. There will absolutely be drift current in Barbat's device. All 3 coils in fact, as per the patent. .99 --------------------------- "Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa

Grumpy	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #42 on: 2010-12-16, 13:49:45 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	If Barbat had read up on electrostatic induction, he would not need LME's to explain electrons that move faster than standard drift.

Chet K	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #43 on: 2010-12-16, 14:15:57 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4052	Grumpy, Quote: Consider this: ES induction will cause a current to flow to or from an earth ground. What if the conductor is connected to a dipole like a battery or cap? Ah-ha! it charges it! Remember! You read it hear first! ------------------- whether or not Barbat is basing his work on LMA [low mass electron] or in reality it is actually ESI [Electro static induction]. Do you still use the same bait to catch the fish??Or does the realisation of ESI change everything? Chet PS I might add ,To this Pin Head, Static and Low mass almost sound interchangable.

Grumpy	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #44 on: 2010-12-16, 14:31:04 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	No one agrees with my conclusion of ES Induction, so there is no need to discuss it further.

Chet K	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #45 on: 2010-12-16, 14:57:45 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4052	Grumpy To think/ believe that static can make a path for current,seems quite obvious to me after having read your post. Much the way that a standing puddle of water will start to flow /follow even the smallest trace scraped from it! I don't think Peeps disagree at all with your statement! Chet

Grumpy	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #46 on: 2010-12-16, 15:15:06 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Shorted coils are also used to convert electrostatically induced current into electromagnetically induced magnetism, or just put a load on the shorted coil and use the current. Then you either shuttle the charge back and forth (AC) or rotate it around (DC). Ed Gray's motors. Methernitha's Testatika electrostatic generator.

Peterae

Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #47 on: 2010-12-16, 16:29:50 »

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There's an interesting circuit here of an electrostatic speaker esl63
They also short the delay coils.

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The Patent Of William Barbat

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BEP	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #48 on: 2010-12-16, 17:17:05 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: poynt99 on 2010-12-16, 13:37:31 There will absolutely be drift current in Barbat's device. All 3 coils in fact, as per the patent. .99 Maybe very little, in the shorted coil. The short prevents potential buildup. No potential, no current. You can unload a generator by removing the load or shorting the output leads. While some potential builds across the shorted coil, it must be limited and extremely low. The shorted winding looks like it must act more as a capacitor plate than anything else. That shorted coil looks more like the inner metal cylinder of a Faraday ice pail experiment. In other words, I think Grumpy has nailed this one. Peterae, That shorted winding on the delays of the electrostatic speakers is actually the core (a conductor) upon which the windings are wound. That 'core' is one plate of the TL capacitance. I think delay line is also an example of ES induction.

Peterae	Re: The Patent Of William Barbat « Reply #49 on: 2010-12-16, 17:29:06 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3973	~~You sure WW i looked at the pcb a few years ago and the short was a pcb track that the coil solders to.~~ ok looks like you were right I have also seen an early SR193 build and it also had 5 loops of shorted turns, cant find the picture right now but will keep looking ------------------------ The Patent Of William Barbat Quad-ESL63-17.jpg (152.88 kB, 2318x3510 - viewed 1751 times.)