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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Solid-State Generators > turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power
2024-11-27, 02:42:37
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Author Topic: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power  (Read 8422 times)
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img  verpies
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #25 on: 2023-12-14, 06:40:33 »

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Quote from: MerLynn on 2023-12-14, 00:49:48
So Joe picked up a magnet and used the pen and every time he held it to the magnet's N it either lite up and the next time didnt light up North Pole. He did this repeatedly to prove his point.
Joe can Flip the poles by Touch.
Anecdotes are not evidence.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
This is a scientific forum, not a story telling board.

Quote from: MerLynn on 2023-12-14, 00:49:48
Allen from Philosophy.org...
That seems like a better forum for your stories.
   
img  whitelightningwizard
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #26 on: 2023-12-14, 14:45:17 »
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@verpies

There is no forum at philosophy.org

and Allen (my dear close friend) passed away this year.

WATCH Joe de-pole neodymium magnets with HIS HANDS... in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qM3x2z5Twno
towards the end around 8 minute mark.

It's not just a 'story' what MerLynn says. plz try to keep an open mind. a closed mind can't learn anything new!

Cheers, wlw
   
img  verpies
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #27 on: 2023-12-14, 15:28:43 »

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This is noting special. Magnets can be demagnetized when put closely in repulsion, especially low coercivity magnets.
I've done it myself with AlNiCo magnets.

Also, that video contains no measurements of the remanent magnetization, so it is anecdotal.
   
img  Smudge
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #28 on: 2023-12-14, 15:30:11 »

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If you have two disc magnets magnetized through their small (thickness) dimension (as most are) and you force two together in repelling mode (very difficult especially with neos) you can get one of the magnets (the weakest one) to flip its polarity so now they attract.  This feature is not some new science (although some obviously believe otherwise) and is readily explained by current scientific theory.  I have used small circular disc neos to flip the polarity of ferrite magnets.  You can easily flip just part of a magnet and create what some people wrongly call a tripole, but is in fact a linear quadrupole having a N pole at each end a S pole at the centre.  The only probelm with doing this is that the stronger magnet loses some strength, and if you use a large disc to flip a smaller one the loss is not uniform over the volume of the large magnet, leaving the magnet with internal stresses that can eventually cause the magnet to break apart.

Smudge
   
img  MerLynn
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #29 on: 2023-12-14, 22:15:57 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2023-12-14, 15:28:43
This is noting special. Magnets can be demagnetized when put closely in repulsion, especially low coercivity magnets.
I've done it myself with AlNiCo magnets.

Also, that video contains no measurements of the remanent magnetization, so it is anecdotal.

sad but true. No comprehension of the Science being Denied.

There's no 'remnant' to measure

Joe works with Ferrite Magnets. Neodymium is NOT magnetic. Its a Static Catalyst to enhance the Field Effect of Iron. Just Like Chromium added to iron is a Catalyst to INHIBIT the Field effect of Iron as in Non Residual Magnetic Stainless Steel. So it dont rust just like iron being conditioned with a Pure North Pole Energy as a washer between two SAME North Pole FERRITE Ring magnets.
   
img  david
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #30 on: 2023-12-14, 22:48:12 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2023-12-13, 10:28:03
No, it is still iron but now it is a positive ion.  The iron nucleus has more protons than the chromium nucleus.
Smudge

yes but the nucleus doesnt contribute to the magnetic properties of the atom. electrons and their orbitals do. their effects are a thousand times stronger than that of the nucleus i believe i read somewhere.

i just look at the electron orbitals - which ones are filled and which ones are not and by removing one electron from the outer most shell (which is i believe the 4s shell for iron) the new electron configuration looks alot like that of chromium. i make a picture and put them next to each other. removing one electron from every iron atom in a small collection of atoms should be doable without disintegrating the material.
   
img  T-1000
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #31 on: 2023-12-14, 23:14:59 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2023-12-14, 15:28:43
This is noting special. Magnets can be demagnetized when put closely in repulsion, especially low coercivity magnets.
I've done it myself with AlNiCo magnets.

Also, that video contains no measurements of the remanent magnetization, so it is anecdotal.
And yet we still have have conventional generator and motor designs with pitting same pole and opposite pole magnetic fields against each other. Then add kinetic force to overcome that design flaws. Which we call energy input to the resulting energy output then call it COP. ;)
Which begs to fix flaws in that design and this is where wild "overunity" becomes to manifest. And there are better ways to utilize Faraday's law of induction, all in geometry and engineering areas.

Just stop making generators for a moment literally like in https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Induction_experiment.png/435px-Induction_experiment.png The resulting kinetic forces must work with each other or completely go on 90 degrees from prime movement vector. That is 3D vectors geometry for you to solve while still maintaining induction in coils. :) If you still go on old design, do it like mother Nature does - for every opposing kinetic force there is 3rd opposing kinetic force for that opposition with resulting net 0 neutral force. Like in Muller dynamo design. 6/8 coils/magnets arrangement to balance out kinetic forces to neutral around rotor.

Cheers!
« Last Edit: 2023-12-15, 00:17:35 by T-1000 »
   
img  whitelightningwizard
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #32 on: 2023-12-15, 15:04:42 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2023-12-14, 15:28:43
This is noting special. Magnets can be demagnetized when put closely in repulsion, especially low coercivity magnets.
I've done it myself with AlNiCo magnets.

Also, that video contains no measurements of the remanent magnetization, so it is anecdotal.

Ok try it again with NEO's...

if u can de-pole them in less than 30 seconds with ur hands...

and hold repelling neo magnets together with ur thumb and index finger...

THEN tell me (one more time) that you saw "nothing special" !!!

wlw
   
img  Smudge
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #33 on: 2023-12-18, 14:59:25 »

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Quote from: david on 2023-12-14, 22:48:12
yes but the nucleus doesnt contribute to the magnetic properties of the atom. electrons and their orbitals do. their effects are a thousand times stronger than that of the nucleus i believe i read somewhere.

i just look at the electron orbitals - which ones are filled and which ones are not and by removing one electron from the outer most shell (which is i believe the 4s shell for iron) the new electron configuration looks alot like that of chromium. i make a picture and put them next to each other. removing one electron from every iron atom in a small collection of atoms should be doable without disintegrating the material.
Perhaps the attached document will shed some light.  The atom can shed a small number (about 0.2-0.3 per atom) of 3d electrons as itinerant conduction electrons and these are responsible for the iron's ferromagnetic properties.

Smudge
   
img  T-1000
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #34 on: 2023-12-18, 15:33:37 »
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Quote from: whitelightningwizard on 2023-12-15, 15:04:42
Ok try it again with NEO's...

if u can de-pole them in less than 30 seconds with ur hands...

and hold repelling neo magnets together with ur thumb and index finger...

THEN tell me (one more time) that you saw "nothing special" !!!

wlw
Lets behave like emotionless Commander Spock for a moment. :)
Any magnet no matter the strength can be demagnetized with higher magnetic field strength than its own. The Neodium magnets are no exception just usually you do not have 10's of Teslas magnetic field in bakcground. And they also can be demagnetized by Curie temperature.

Just the point of the topic is, if you find a way to manage magnetic field to lock into itself - be that alternative magnetic flux path or opposite magnets to the poles, you can shift magnetic field strength  from max to almost non-magnetic. Now with that in mind if you happen to have coild inside that field the Electromagnetic induction happens. Depending on coil reaction speed (higher inductance, more slow reaction) you may match the speed of magnetic flux change of the magnets.
And because the source of that coil magnetization is the magnet itself while magnetic flux changes the resulting countering magnetic field of the coil under load will be always weaker than the magnet itself. Which leaves magnets demagnetization outside of the scope.

Hopefully this clears some misunderstanding.

P.S> Some fun educational video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMma3OJUHhs

Cheers!
   
img  whitelightningwizard
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #35 on: 2023-12-18, 17:31:34 »
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Quote from: T-1000 on 2023-12-18, 15:33:37
Lets behave like emotionless Commander Spock for a moment. :)
Any magnet no matter the strength can be demagnetized with higher magnetic field strength than its own. The Neodium magnets are no exception just usually you do not have 10's of Teslas magnetic field in bakcground. And they also can be demagnetized by Curie temperature.

@T

in the video Joe demagnetizes TWO magnets of equal size simultaneously. So there can be no ‘higher’ magnetic field than it’s own. He also uses just his hands at 98.6°F temp not remotely high enough for Curie temp...

and yet the repelling poles DISAPPEAR until he can hold them together with thumb and finger.

now if we really think upon that all sorts of science just went out the window, such as Coulomb’s law stating opposites repel.  O0

Joe can even ‘wind them back up’ with his hands and the magnets become STRONGER than when they were handed to him.
then eventually they stabilize back to where they were initially charged. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx8czSVTwrA&t=28s WATCH

The real problem this thread faces is magnetic ‘experts’ believe there is nothing NEW to discover. They believe everything has ALREADY been worked out about magnetics.
A hindrance preventing them from extracting power from magnets without needing to move them at all.

Cheers,
wlw
   
img  chief kolbacict
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #36 on: 2023-12-18, 18:22:33 »

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Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #37 on: 2023-12-19, 13:18:20 »
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Anyone would be fancy to play with some magnets and coils?
Would be interesting to see if you would manage to pump out some amps while shorting one of two magnets flux from the attached concept... :)
   
img  whitelightningwizard
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #38 on: 2023-12-19, 14:40:47 »
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O0

« Last Edit: 2023-12-20, 14:39:19 by whitelightningwizard »
   
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Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #39 on: 2023-12-20, 04:35:08 »
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Quote from: whitelightningwizard on 2023-12-19, 14:40:47
ps. u don't want North & South together like in ur pic. u want North & North or South & South, coil cancels flux and we capture the BIG field coming back across the coil. !
Yes, you can partially harvest energy back when disconnecting L1 due BEMF + first magnet flux locking over L1 coil. But also the L1 coil on magnet would produce bloch walls on magnet edges when energized. The L2 coil would be sitting around bloch wall from the second magnet when L1 is not energized but with energizing of L1 the sudden rush of magnetic pole would change magnetic flux density around L2 coil. Which produce EMF.

From what I am seeing on the scope of L2 when playing around with neodium magnets it is 2 spikes on L2. One slow rising over 30-40ms and 1 BEMF nanosecond range spike after.
The problem I have is the amps on L2 not being that much powerflul as voltage. And because we are dealing with swift inrush of magnetic flux from magnet that remains engineering challenge how to harvest induced EMF properly on L2 coil.

So, if you would like to get hands dirty on this you are very welcome :) It does not take fortune to get some magnets, transformer cores, driving circuits and make some coils.

P.S> Solving this puzzle would solve inner workings of Bearden's MEG too.

Cheers!
   
img  maxmalone
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #40 on: 2023-12-20, 08:42:25 »
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Why didn't anyone think of this? ....? because it doesn't work!
Nobody understood why? Nobody understands how a magnet with electricity works?
Instead of showing drawings, you can check it. I checked this a long time ago.
   
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Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #41 on: 2023-12-20, 09:23:19 »
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Quote from: maxmalone on 2023-12-20, 08:42:25
Why didn't anyone think of this? ....? because it doesn't work!
Nobody understood why? Nobody understands how a magnet with electricity works?
Instead of showing drawings, you can check it. I checked this a long time ago.
This statement is partially not true. The magnetic amplifiers was widely used back in the day.
It utilized transformer core saturation with DC magnetic field.
What was not widely explored is replacing AC input with DC input to make magnet. And DC input with pulsed DC input to block magnetic flux due core saturation and making sure the control coils are not doing transformer action.
   
img  maxmalone
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #42 on: 2023-12-20, 11:38:54 »
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Quote from: T-1000 on 2023-12-20, 09:23:19
This statement is partially not true. The magnetic amplifiers was widely used back in the day.
It utilized transformer core saturation with DC magnetic field.
What was not widely explored is replacing AC input with DC input to make magnet. And DC input with pulsed DC input to block magnetic flux due core saturation and making sure the control coils are not doing transformer action.

The coil and magnet always work symmetrically, so there is no way to change it. This can be seen by trying to influence the second magnet with another magnet. The coil does 100% the same thing, only it has greater losses, but the magnetic field balance is always the same.
Adding a magnet to a coil does not cause growth unless the magnet moves. It really doesn't take much time to test it in practice.
I only know one way to increase the current in the coil in a way that no one has thought of yet (I didn't know). Unfortunately, this is not anything that would result in a large increase, but the effect is an increase above 1. The input current decreases and the output increases.
No one was interested in this on ou.com, so there is no need to explain further here.

« Last Edit: 2023-12-23, 08:09:02 by maxmalone »
   
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Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #43 on: 2023-12-20, 14:41:49 »
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Quote from: maxmalone on 2023-12-20, 11:38:54
I only know one way to increase the current in the coil in a way that no one has thought of yet (I didn't know). Unfortunately, this is not anything that would result in a large increase, but the effect is an increase above 1. The input current decreases and the output increases.
Would you mind to share that method here for clarity?

Also I would like not to overtake whole thread here, what are other peoples thoughts and experiences on subject?
   
img  verpies
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #44 on: 2023-12-20, 16:13:09 »

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Quote from: T-1000 on 2023-12-20, 14:41:49
...what are other peoples thoughts and experiences on subject?
I think it might be possible to rotate the entire ferromagnetic domains and have their angular momenta decay for an appreciable amount of time.  Shot pulses causing prolonged changes in bulk magnetization
   
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Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #45 on: 2023-12-20, 16:33:50 »
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Some food for thought from basic experiments with magnetic flux path switching and locking (in Russian) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEPIjDL8F7Y
And in the video same problem with making induction from magnetic flux path switching too.
   
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Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #46 on: 2023-12-20, 18:27:59 »

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You had forgotten that magnet materials change its temperature when  a material is magnetized and demagnetized.
If you organize a process to take heat from the environment and turn it into electricity...
This is difficult to do engineering, but there are no fundamental obstacles.
At least the source of energy is clearly visible.
   
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Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #47 on: 2023-12-21, 03:47:28 »

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Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #48 on: 2023-12-21, 05:36:52 »
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Quote from: JimBoot on 2023-12-21, 03:47:28
Battery powered MEG? Output measurement error according to RMS. https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/first-ai-nonrotational-power-cop28 https://youtu.be/bNo_TYPK3nE?si=_TgVfy9D4kR9YZQx

The biggest concern I have is with regard to the input power measurement.  I doubt a clampmeter will read a 10% duty cycle waveform accurately.  Perhaps the clampmeter is already performing some averaging due to its response time, count rate, etc, and the input current pulses are actually closer to 1520 peak amps with the indicated 152 amps being closer to the average power draw (which they divide by 10 to account for duty cycle).  Input power would then actually be 9.12 kilowatts, which would be sufficient to drive a fairly efficient boost circuit to the indicated AC output power levels.  The size of the cables and switching devices look like they could handle a peak current of that magnitude and duty cycle.  Super caps and several battery chemistries having low ESR are also capable of delivering peak currents of that magnitude and duty cycle..

If this is so, their input charger would have to input a continuous 60V at 152 amps to run the unit indefinitely or else the output power would decrease over time.  In the video, I recall an AC Vout reading significantly lower than another Vout reading elsewhere in the video.

Just my 2 cents...

PW

 
   
img  T-1000
Re: turning a permanent magnet on and off and harnessing the flux change for power « Reply #49 on: 2023-12-21, 09:54:52 »
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Quote from: JimBoot on 2023-12-21, 03:47:28
Battery powered MEG? Output measurement error according to RMS. https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/first-ai-nonrotational-power-cop28 https://youtu.be/bNo_TYPK3nE?si=_TgVfy9D4kR9YZQx
The ultimate test is always to rectify output to capacitor then loop output to input to power itself. Unless that is done and proven the claims with COP>1 (additional energy on output due unknown process to provide that power) remain unproven. There are myriad ways to fool meters. One of oldest ways is capacitor disruptive discharge to power the load while charging it with high frequency and low duty cycle pulses.

Cheers!
   
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