PopularFX
Home Help Search Login Register
Welcome,Guest. Please login or register.
2024-11-26, 18:42:30
News: A feature is available which provides a place all members can chat, either publicly or privately.
There is also a "Shout" feature on each page. Only available to members.

Pages: [1] 2 3
Author Topic: Energy transfer between HV coil and transformer  (Read 5471 times)
Newbie
*

Posts: 14
I'd like to replicate the experiment from the video linked below, where energy is transferred between an inductive coil powered by high voltage pulses from a flyback transformer and a green transformer powered by a push-pull circuit. The video mentions that the green transformer operates at a frequency of 50Hz.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nxKqfkkndw
 Therefore, I have a question:
How can I build a push-pull (Royer oscillator) operating at a frequency of 50Hz?
Also, how can I synchronize the high voltage pulses from the coil with the 50Hz signal from the green transformer so that they always align at the peak of the 50Hz amplitude?
   

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3499
I'd like to replicate the experiment from the video linked below, where energy is transferred between an inductive coil powered by high voltage pulses from a flyback transformer and a green transformer powered by a push-pull circuit.
First you must decide whether you want this energy transfer to happen by conduction or by radiation.
In case of the latter, you also must decide whether you want this energy to be transferred by the E-field or the H-field or both.

How can I build a push-pull (Royer oscillator) operating at a frequency of 50Hz?
Firstly, this oscillator requires a center-tapped primary winding and feedback winding.  Do you have such windings ?
Also, this oscillator generates an approximate square waveform (there are other version of this oscillator that generate a sine waveform at its output, usually using an additional inductor in the supply line).
The frequency of this oscillator is determined by the maximum magnetic flux density at which its core saturates (↑↓), the power supply voltage (↑↑), and the inductance of the primary winding, secondary current (↑↑).
The 2nd arrow denotes what happens with frequency as that parameter increases.

This oscillator circuit relies solely on magnetic core saturation to cause switching between its two states, which means that the power loss in the core due to hysteresis loss is high (this might be a desirable property of this oscillator if you want to saturate the core on every cycle).  If you do not want to to saturate the core on every cycle, consider using an LC sine resonant Royer oscillator circuit, a.k.a. the Baxandall oscillator, which requires the same type of windings but its frequency is also influenced by capacitors in it.  If you do not have a center-tapped primary winding, then the Mazzilli oscillator might be applicable.


Also, how can I synchronize the high voltage pulses from the coil with the 50Hz signal from the green transformer so that they always align at the peak of the 50Hz amplitude?
If the 50Hz signal from the green transformer is the phase-determining component then you can use the signal from its Royer feedback winding.  When the voltage signal across this winding gets low, then this is an indicator that the transformer's primary current is nearing saturation (and its peak) and then you can use a comparator, such as the ubiquitous 339, to signal the opening of the primary winding of the LOPT in order to generate the HV pulse at its secondary.
« Last Edit: 2023-10-23, 17:39:11 by verpies »
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 14
I would like to replicate this experiment as faithfully as possible. Unfortunately, my knowledge of electronics is too limited to do it on my own. I'm counting on the help of forum users.

I jumped to the conclusion too quickly that a Royer oscillator was used in the video. Perhaps it's a voltage boost converter or a different type of oscillator? I'd like to use the circuit that was most similar to the one used in the video to power the green transformer.

I have a very similar transformer TH41-220-50 with leads arranged in the same way as in the video. In the video, the circuit of the coil powered by high-voltage pulses from the transformer is not galvanically connected to the circuit of the green transformer with the light bulb. Both of these circuits are only powered together from a single 12V battery.

The voltage measured at the output of the green transformer is before the diode, after which there is a light bulb, and it's 100V. The light bulb is not connected to the secondary winding, only to the primary winding. I'll add that the secondary winding of the green transformer is not used. That is, one pin of the primary winding is connected to one pin of the secondary winding - why?

The circuit of the green transformer contains two transistors, a microchip, a choke or an electrolytic capacitor, two large electrolytic capacitors, and probably a potentiometer.

What type of oscillator could have been used to power the green transformer in this experiment?

I am attaching the datasheet of the transformer I want to use for this experiment. It is a TH41-220-50 transformer. The datasheet is included as an attachment. Below are pictures of the elements used in the circuit of the green transformer.


Regarding the questions:
"First you must decide whether you want this energy transfer to happen by conduction or by radiation.
In case of the latter, you also must decide whether you want this energy to be transferred by the E-field or the H-field or both."

To begin with, as in the video, through radiation. Next, we can try through conduction. Transferred by the E-field

"Firstly, this oscillator requires a center-tapped primary winding and feedback winding.  Do you have such windings ?"
What do you mean feedback windings?

"If the 50Hz signal from the green transformer is the phase-determining component then you can use the signal from its Royer feedback winding.  When the voltage signal across this winding gets low, then this is an indicator that the transformer's primary current is nearing saturation (and its peak) and then you can use a comparator, such as the ubiquitous 339, to signal the opening of the primary winding of the LOPT in order to generate the HV pulse at its secondary."
What is LOPT? Can you provide an example schematic where the 339 comparator synchronizes two signals?





« Last Edit: 2023-10-24, 16:15:36 by verpies »
   

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3499
I would like to replicate this experiment as faithfully as possible. Unfortunately, my knowledge of electronics is too limited to do it on my own. I'm counting on the help of forum users.
Well then, the first thing you should do is draw a proper schematic diagram.
I have started it for you by drawing the TH41-220-50 transformer you specified.  You can edit it in MS-Paint or whatever else you like.



I jumped to the conclusion too quickly that a Royer oscillator was used in the video. Perhaps it's a voltage boost converter or a different type of oscillator? I'd like to use the circuit that was most similar to the one used in the video to power the green transformer.
So go back to the video and draw the connections to the components that you see.  We can help you figure out what type of transistors they are and their pinouts.

I have a very similar transformer TH41-220-50 with leads arranged in the same way as in the video.
How is it different from the original ?  Does it have the same core ?

In the video, the circuit of the coil powered by high-voltage pulses from the transformer is not galvanically connected to the circuit of the green transformer with the light bulb. Both of these circuits are only powered together from a single 12V battery.
Well, I would call that shared power supply wires - a galvanic connection.  You cannot discount the signals traveling up&down supply lines.

The voltage measured at the output of the green transformer is before the diode, after which there is a light bulb, and it's 100V. The light bulb is not connected to the secondary winding, only to the primary winding. I'll add that the secondary winding of the green transformer is not used. That is, one pin of the primary winding is connected to one pin of the secondary winding - why?
Draw it.  A diagram is worth a thousand words.

The circuit of the green transformer contains two transistors, a microchip, a choke or an electrolytic capacitor, two large electrolytic capacitors, and probably a potentiometer.
The microchip with the electrolytic capacitors on one board could be the 555 timer or the MC34063 switcher, which drives the transistors and forms a signal generator.  Draw the transistors together. The TO-220 regulator, choke and other capacitors separately.

What type of oscillator could have been used to power the green transformer in this experiment?
I will tell you once you draw the schematic.

To begin with, as in the video, through radiation. Next, we can try through conduction. Transferred by the E-field
So you are discounting the signals transferred by conduction through the supply lines ?

What do you mean feedback windings?
I did not write "windings", I wrote "winding".
The L2 winding marked in red is the feedback winding.  Every Royer oscillator must have it.  If it does not have it, then it is not a Royer oscillator.



What is LOPT?
This:


In Russian it is called: "ТДКС"

Can you provide an example schematic where the 339 comparator synchronizes two signals?
Yes, but that would be premature as you want to replicate tit-for-tat and I do not see a 339 comparator in that video.
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 14
How is it different from the original ?  Does it have the same core ?
I don't know why it was accepted that this transformer has a ferrite core, in any case, as I was looking through various datasheets from catalogs of "green transformers" I didn't come across any with a ferrite core. Of course, this does not mean 100% sure that the transformer used in the video did not have a ferrite core.
Yes, but that would be premature as you want to replicate tit-for-tat and I do not see a 339 comparator in that video.
Indeed, the video does not show the 339 comparator, but I would appreciate it if you sent some schematic of how to use it to synchronize two signals.

I will address the rest later , due to limited time.
« Last Edit: 2023-10-25, 23:01:31 by verpies »
   

Group: Renaissance Man
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2765


Buy me a cigar
Out of pure curiosity I watched the video in the opening page of this topic. The first part was the one I was trying to find a link to for Verpies. As I got further through I discovered the device that both Hoppy and I had tried to replicate some 9-10 years ago.

Neither of us managed to get the results shown. However, note the use of a split tube of Aluminium between the inner and outer windings.

In the first video there appears to be a “ chip “ on the circuit board that drives the Green transformer.

Cheers Grum.


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
Sr. Member
****

Posts: 271
Out of pure curiosity I watched the video in the opening page of this topic. The first part was the one I was trying to find a link to for Verpies. As I got further through I discovered the device that both Hoppy and I had tried to replicate some 9-10 years ago.

Neither of us managed to get the results shown. However, note the use of a split tube of Aluminium between the inner and outer windings.

In the first video there appears to be a “ chip “ on the circuit board that drives the Green transformer.

Cheers Grum.

The split aluminium tube has always piqued interest for me. You see it make an appearance in many devices, but the exact use of it is never explained. Is it one side of a capacitor? Is it a single turn inductor?

I've thought about it a lot. Placing it inbetween two windings would block the electric (E) field between L1 and L2 if it was grounded. I don't think it would have any effect on the magnetic (H) field, aside from some small eddy currents, because it isn't shorted due to the slit and so this would pass straight through.

Maybe it is the E field that is responsible for the way transformers work? I've always wondered how transformers could work if the magnetic field is for the most part confined within the core material. I recall Eric Dollard saying that no one knows exactly how transformers work.

Would blocking the E field cause L1 to magnetically induce L2 without any feedback / load to L1? Magnets have no E field and we use them to induce currents in coils to generate electricity.

Just some thoughts from the top of my head. I am by no means an expert so feel free to chime in if I'm wrong in my understanding.
   

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3499
I don't know why it was accepted that this transformer has a ferrite core, in any case, as I was looking through various datasheets from catalogs of "green transformers" I didn't come across any with a ferrite core.
I do not know either.  It seems like a big assumption to me.

Of course, this does not mean 100% sure that the transformer used in the video did not have a ferrite core.
But after seeing these datasheets you've provided, my bet is that these transformers have a steel tape wound cores.

Indeed, the video does not show the 339 comparator, but I would appreciate it if you sent some schematic of how to use it to synchronize two signals.
The 339 is just a voltage comparator.  It doesn't perform any useful function on its own.  It needs to be a part of a larger schematic.. Than one that you will draw from analyzing the video.
   

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3499
Maybe it is the E field that is responsible for the way transformers work?
Nah. They work even if the E-field is completely shielded.

Would blocking the E field cause L1 to magnetically induce L2 without any feedback / load to L1?
No

I've always wondered how transformers could work if the magnetic field is for the most part confined within the core material.
Officially, via the A-field.

I recall Eric Dollard saying that no one knows exactly how transformers work.
I would not say "all".  In my opinion they can be exactly understood by abandoning the space and time as some type of an aquarium in which we all float and recognizing that they are mere aspects of the non-vectorial 3D motion of gravitating matter and the reference systems constructed by it.

Magnets have no E field and we use them to induce currents in coils to generate electricity.
The non-vectorial motion of magnets just deviates 2-dimensionally from the 3D motion of non-magnetized matter.  This deviation creates an illusion of motion between two reference systems, which we call attraction .  There are no little vikings with harpoons sitting on one magnet and reeling in the other magnet.

Conversely, the non-vectorial motion of electric charges deviates 1-dimensionally from the 3D motion of uncharged matter.   Moving charged matter in another dimension vectorially, cancels part of its ordinary 3D motion and leaves a 2D residue (deviation), which we perceive as magnetism.
All of that is not a good subject for discussion on this forum - it can quickly degenerate to a flame war about aether and other inventions of the human mind.
« Last Edit: 2023-10-26, 08:39:40 by verpies »
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 14
So go back to the video and draw the connections to the components that you see.  We can help you figure out what type of transistors they are and their pinouts.
That's all what I can see in the video. I can't tell how the components on the pcb are connected.
Attached is the circuit feeding the green transformer.
   

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3499
Attached is the circuit feeding the green transformer.
What about the choke ? It is an important component to know about.

The circuit of the green transformer contains two transistors, a microchip, a choke...

Are you sure that terminals 14 and 16 are not connected to anything  ?

Also, let's designate the center tap of the primary winding as 1B because in the datasheet it is written this way in Russian ...and your designation looks like 16.
   
Group: Guest
This thing is going back some years, some of the guys were on a com's thread T1000 and a few others too
from what i can remember the green transformer is a Russian 'C' core 50 hertz device and it was driven by
an ZVS circuit and not a Royer ! apparently it only works with NRZ configuration it was difficult to understand
the translation on frequency of the EHT section but it must be in the Khz range and is in no way are the two
device's connected together for sync both are free running. There was a lot of discussion at the time and I
didn't attempt to replicate it I was to busy with work.

Sil

Note correction
« Last Edit: 2023-10-27, 14:02:33 by AlienGrey »
   

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3499
the green transformer is a Russian 'C' core 50 hertz device and it was driven by an NRZ circuit and not a Royer !
Please provide a link to the NRZ oscillator circuit.
I am familiar with the ZVS circuit and Mazilli but not with the NRZ.

In telecommunications parlance, the acronym expands to Non Return to Zero, which I am very familiar with, but not so in reference to oscillators.
   
Group: Guest
Yeah thats the one ZVS the 2 Mosfets with the stearing diodes.
must have been thinking of the old tape / disk controlers.
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 14
What about the choke ? It is an important component to know about.

Are you sure that terminals 14 and 16 are not connected to anything  ?

Also, let's designate the center tap of the primary winding as 1B because in the datasheet it is written this way in Russian ...and your designation looks like 16.

At first I thought it was a choke , but it is, however, an electrolytic capacitor.
Yes, I'm sure I spent a long time analyzing this video.
Yes, you're right it's not 6 it's the Russian letter B
   

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3499
Do we have this guy on this forum ?

He speaks English and had an "event" which destroyed his equipment while stimulating a transformer with RF a year ago.  See:
https://youtu.be/VXUkH9htFbs
https://youtu.be/lyrFFk7P0v4

I find his offending frequency intriguing because it is close to the one described in this paper.




This is relevant to the subject of affecting transformers by RF fields, which is discussed in this thread.

If not - could someone invite this guy here ?
« Last Edit: 2024-08-31, 18:21:59 by verpies »
   
Newbie
*

Posts: 14
To Verpies

Do you have any idea what circuit fed the green transformer?
   

Group: Renaissance Man
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2765


Buy me a cigar
I'd like to replicate the experiment from the video linked below, where energy is transferred between an inductive coil powered by high voltage pulses from a flyback transformer and a green transformer powered by a push-pull circuit. The video mentions that the green transformer operates at a frequency of 50Hz.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nxKqfkkndw
 Therefore, I have a question:
How can I build a push-pull (Royer oscillator) operating at a frequency of 50Hz?
Also, how can I synchronize the high voltage pulses from the coil with the 50Hz signal from the green transformer so that they always align at the peak of the 50Hz amplitude?

Hi there.

Here’s a really cheap option to convert 12 V to 220 VAC for your experiment.

https://tinyurl.com/2c8c6s66

I have got one myself and am really happy with it.

Cheers Grum.


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3499
Do you have any idea what circuit fed the green transformer?
If it was not for that 8-pin DIP chip and the pot and lack of chokes, I would say that one:

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/103173_d0e221cabffe4f9eaaeccffce6470564~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_604,h_560,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/schematics1.png
Energy transfer between HV coil and transformer


Here is an entertaining video about it.

...and this is the the simplest circuit but it requires feeding the power supply into the center tap of the primary.
It also does not contain any IC and nor pot for adjustment.

This one ticks almost all the boxes:

https://www.homemade-circuits.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/555-inverter-circuit.jpg
Energy transfer between HV coil and transformer


...as it has 2 transistors, an 8-pin IC with a pot adjustment, no center-tapped primary winding ...but it has a choke :(
   
Sr. Member
****

Posts: 453
Do we have this guy on this forum ?

He speaks English and had an "event" which destroyed his equipment while stimulating a transformer with RF a year ago.  See:
https://youtu.be/VXUkH9htFbs
https://youtu.be/lyrFFk7P0v4

I find the his offending frequency intriguing because it is close to the one described in this paper.




This is relevant to the subject of affecting transformers by RF fields, which is discussed in this thread.

If not - could someone invite this guy here ?

Verpies,

You are beginning to sound like the proverbial hammer that sees everything as a nail...

How do NMR related excitations produce excess energy?

As for the videos, if my variac growled like that I'd definitely want to know why.  You have to pull a lot of current thru a variac to make it growl like that.  I'd investigate the connections or check out the variac for a shorted winding.  Those variac/autotransformers are not isolated.  One side of the output goes to one side of the line.  With non-polarized plugs, lifted AC grounds, and computer/equipment grounds connected via unsure cliplead connections, he's probably got the hot side of the line driving his equip grounds.

PW
   

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3499
You are beginning to sound like the proverbial hammer that sees everything as a nail...
I can see why you would write that  ;)

How do NMR related excitations produce excess energy?
By causing precessions and this and like I recently explained to you in the other thread.
   
Sr. Member
****

Posts: 453
I can see why you would write that  ;)
By causing precessions and this and like I recently explained to you in the other thread.

Verpies,

I have issues with the references given in the other thread with regard to producing overunity.  Induced beta decay may be considered overunity (if it actually works), but none of the setups discussed thus far resemble the experiments in the patent or relate to the other two references in that post.  As well, any emission of fast electrons (beta particles) due to proton or neutron decay are going to decelerate rapidly via collisions and produce x-rays, etc.

Although I only looked at it briefly, this paper that you reference here seems to be stating that the unpinning of magnetic domains can be made easier if the system is resonated prior to the unpinning.

How does causing precessions (application of B field) or placing all precessions in phase (via stimulating at NMR freq) produce OU?  Seems the most we can do is apply an RF signal (NMR freq) at a right angle to the B field until spin flip saturation is achieved and then what? 

PW 

 

   
Group: Guest
If it was not for that 8-pin DIP chip and the pot and lack of chokes, I would say that one:

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/103173_d0e221cabffe4f9eaaeccffce6470564~mv2.png/v1/fill/w_604,h_560,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/schematics1.png
Energy transfer between HV coil and transformer


Here is an entertaining video about it.

...and this is the the simplest circuit but it requires feeding the power supply into the center tap of the primary.
It also does not contain any IC and nor pot for adjustment.

This one ticks almost all the boxes:

https://www.homemade-circuits.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/555-inverter-circuit.jpg
Energy transfer between HV coil and transformer


...as it has 2 transistors, an 8-pin IC with a pot adjustment, no center-tapped primary winding ...but it has a choke :(
That 555 circuit isn't that chip where the one output transistor gets hotter than the other and burns out ?
Also that other the ZVS circuit has a few problems if by any chance you have a delay in the power rise time both transistors
switch on at the same time and BANG! also its best to center tap the output coil that way it draws less current to wast,
also  if you look at better versions of that circuit they use an IRF 21530  that way you end up with the pot and the cap
and that design is made for that job so both transistors are never on at the same time. or buy an induction hot plate.

Sil
   

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3499
I have issues with the references given in the other thread with regard to producing overunity.
But you have no issues with the idea of "energy from nothing" and without any concrete mechanism ?

Induced beta decay may be considered overunity (if it actually works), but none of the setups discussed thus far resemble the experiments in the patent or relate to the other two references in that post. 
Depends how you look at these experiments.  The patent proposed a brute-force method to destabilize the nuclei - I propose resonant increase of their precession, which is more energy efficient.  Every transformer subjected to short pulses of bucking fields could be an example of such experiment, (e.g. see the videos listed in reply #331 or the video which is the subject of this thread).  Bucking fields in grenade coils create orthogonal fields, too.  Many of them have a split metal tube inside and ferrite (see the list here). Kapanadze motor has huge disks that can act as magnetic guides and fast electron multiplication media.  The 1:40:39 scopeshot from the Yoke device made with 1:1000 probe, shows that the application of two ~10Vpp signals to the primaries of a 15:42 step up transformer yields 15.9kV across the secondary winding.  Each of these frequencies separately does nothing special (only normal transformer action). We have a video which demonstrates a copper wire acquiring ferromagnetic properties after being pulsed, possibly indicating transmutation to Nickel.

As well, any emission of fast electrons (beta particles) due to proton or neutron decay are going to decelerate rapidly via collisions and produce x-rays, etc.
Not so quickly, they survive millimeters before collisions, and when the nuclei are spin-aligned the probability of secondary emissions increases.

Although I only looked at it briefly, this paper that you reference here seems to be stating that the unpinning of magnetic domains can be made easier if the system is resonated prior to the unpinning.
That, too.  Unpinning the domains makes the permeability skyrocket, which makes all kinds of parametric resonance schemes possible. 

How does causing precessions (application of B field) or placing all precessions in phase (via stimulating at NMR freq) produce OU? 
By stripping of the nuclear spin which can destabilize the nucleus and cause it to emit fast charged particles in non-random directions.  Also, the Fe NMR paper illustrates that there is a huge 33T field inside iron metal.  We don't experience it because the spins are randomized, but synchronizing the phase of even some of them would cause a very powerful AC field to emerge. Finally, unpinning the domains allows us to cyclically alter the permeability of the material and accomplish parametric resonance.  The spin energy has also been noticed by another member of this forum in this paper.

Seems the most we can do is apply an RF signal (NMR freq) at a right angle to the B field until spin flip saturation is achieved and then what? 
Then matter is temporarily altered as described above and part of its internal motion can be converted to usable energy.  Creation of conditions suitable for that is not easy, which is a good thing because we would not be here today if it was.
« Last Edit: 2023-10-27, 23:57:48 by verpies »
   
Sr. Member
****

Posts: 453
But you have no issues with the idea of "energy from nothing" and without any concrete mechanism ?

I have never suggested "energy from nothing"...

However, a favorite quote, "everything is made of nothing and all nothing is almost something"...

Some of the videos you direct me to don't really seem to support/explain much.  Perhaps it is just me, but I need a bit more than is typically presented to draw any conclusions.  Growling variacs and random videos of signals on a scope somehow related to a TV yoke with wires wrapped around it really don't tell me much.

Surely you have heard of copper/tin clad steel wire?

PW
   
Pages: [1] 2 3
« previous next »


 

Home Help Search Login Register
Theme © PopularFX | Based on PFX Ideas! | Scripts from iScript4u 2024-11-26, 18:42:30