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Author Topic: Grenade coil type systems  (Read 39844 times)

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Else this kacher config would easily draw 15Watts
Maybe it does.
He does not show the display of his DC power supply when the bulb is lit up ...but some fan can be heard slowing down.
He only says that the supply current is ALMOST the same with the load as at idle.
   
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Maybe it does.
He does not show the display of his DC power supply when the bulb is lit up ...but some fan can be heard slowing down.
He only says that the supply current is ALMOST the same with the load as at idle.

We need more answers or have to find out ourselves 8)
« Last Edit: 2023-10-22, 19:05:13 by verpies »
   
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Attached a impression how the Bunk device could be configured
   

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Attached a impression how the Bunk device could be configured

If Andrey245's foil tube is layed out the same as Bunk's, then this could be how it is connected.
   

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People keep asking me by PM what a Magnetic Yoke is.

I already wrote that it is a frame that provides a low reluctance path for the return flux outside of the device.
It doesn't have to have anything to do with old CRT TVs !

See below:



https://i-mri.org/ArticleImage/1040IMRI/imri-23-179-g004-l.jpg
Grenade coil type systems


Q: What use is it ?
A: For example the flux density between these two magnets is 2x stronger when the magnets are inside the yoke, compared to - when they are not. Yokes also shield the magnetic field by channeling it and not allowing the return flux to spread outside of the device.

Magnetic Yokes can be made out of soft steel or permalloy or ferrite.  The latter can support HF alternating magnetic fields inside it, because it is not conductive (no eddy currents to oppose the changes in flux).
Permanent magnet's datasheets list their remanent magnetization (Br) values in the yoked configuration, so don't be surprised when your brand new spanking "1-Tesla" magnet reads only half of that value on its surface without a yoke.
   

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I made a new coil former and arranged the device as to be sismilar as suggested here:  https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4515.msg108445#msg108445

The compass shows a parallel needle about half way in between the magnets

The new coil (530 turns 0.8mm wire) shows to deliver about 155mT when powered by 8A flowing through it.

First tests with the magnets in aiding mode shows no result to have the needle of the compass deviate 90° in the gap (or rather close by the gap).
Both the coil and the right most magnets want to shoot out to the right and need to be confined somehow.

More tests to follow.....




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The new coil (530 turns 0.8mm wire) shows to deliver about 155mT when powered by 8A flowing through it.
The coil generates the 155mT of 0° flux in the gap or the magnets ?
   

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The coil when stand alone (with one soft core inside) generates the 155mT @ 8A
   

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The coil when stand alone (with one soft core inside) generates the 155mT @ 8A
Oh, so there is no gap in this measurement ?  No magnetic yoke, just a surface reading of an open magnetic circuit with the coil and 1 soft ferrite in it ?
   

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Right.

I found this calculator:  https://www.calctool.org/electromagnetism/solenoid-magnetic-field  for calculating the magnetic field in a solenoid and it seems pretty accurate when entering my data (8A, 3cm length, 530 turns):





« Last Edit: 2023-10-24, 16:15:21 by Itsu »
   
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Maybe it does.
He does not show the display of his DC power supply when the bulb is lit up ...but some fan can be heard slowing down.
He only says that the supply current is ALMOST the same with the load as at idle.

Also a difference in kacher driving is the capacitor which is connected at the low end of the secundairy.
Does this delivers a phase shift?

On the other hand the 3rd option taking the low power consumption in account is interupting.. as his circuitboard has a IC on it as wel.

Ps, didn't get a reply on the question to him.
   

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Using the below shown setup (magnets aiding) i tried to make a measurement above the gap to see how the flux density changes under influence of the flux buildup through the coil (0 - 8A).
 

So with 0 A current through the coil i measure S 25.6mT:



With 8A through the coil we have S 65.9mT




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So with 0 A current through the coil i measure S 25.6mT:
Since your Hall probe is oriented to measure the 90° flux in the gap, the ideal reading exactly in the middle of the gap  should be 0mT.
It should be possible to twist the Hall probe in the middle of the gap, in such a way as to get a lower reading (lower is good in this case).

With 8A through the coil we have S 65.9mT
In this case, the flux in the gap is bucking thus it is more perpendicular to the axis, so it is not a surprise that your 90° Hall probe measures a higher value than with 0A experiment.
You might be able to twist the Hall probe in such a way as to get a higher reading (higher is good in this case).

Of course, if you rotate the probe 90° in both experiments, then you should get opposite readings, i.e.: higher with 0A and lower with 8A.

« Last Edit: 2023-10-25, 22:58:53 by verpies »
   

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Quote
Since your Hall probe is oriented to measure the 90° flux in the gap, the ideal reading exactly in the middle of the gap  should be 0mT.
It should be possible to twist the Hall probe in the middle of the gap, in such a way as to get a lower reading (lower is good in this case).

Correct, in the middle of the gap (i drilled a hole in the former holding the cores and magnets) i have 0mT with only the magnets in aiding mode (0A through the coil).


Quote
In this case, the flux in the gap is bucking thus it is more perpendicular to the axis, so it is not a surprise that your 90° Hall probe measures a higher value than with 0A experiment.
You might be able to twist the Hall probe in such a way as to get a higher reading (higher is good in this case).

Not sure what twist means here, as in from horizontal to vertical or up to down, but when doing the latter, it shows more mT when going down (towards the gap).


Quote
Of course, if you rotate the probe 90° in both experiments, then you should get opposite readings, i.e.: higher with 0A and lower with 8A.

Correct.
   

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Correct, in the middle of the gap (i drilled a hole in the former holding the cores and magnets) i have 0mT with only the magnets in aiding mode (0A through the coil).
That's great but unfortunately that is not where the ring will be.
I did not expect you to drill a hole and put the probe on the major axis of the entire device.
I meant something else by "middle of the gap".  I can see I must make a drawing.



According to this drawing "middle of the gap" denotes the distance between the two flat surfaces of the ferrite/magnet which is parallel to the Z axis.
I did not mean to imply R=0.

Not sure what twist means here
Even more reasons to make a drawing with the coordinate axes marked.

...as in from horizontal to vertical or up to down
These would be translations.
The center of the Hall sensor can be translated in 3 directions and rotated around 3 axes.  That's 6 degrees of freedom (DOF), total.
In this case - translated in only 2 directions (parallel to the axis Z or R) because the device has a cylindrical symmetry. 5° of DOF.

A twist is synonymous with rotation. In English, twisting means rotation around the longest axis of an object (e.g. the way a screwdriver is usually twisted). But in this case - I was referring to the probe (which meant - around the A axis).
« Last Edit: 2023-10-27, 15:53:46 by verpies »
   
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As I was digging in old information I found this interesting document about  Ferro-Magnetic electron spin.
Maybe you seen it before but the conclusion is rather remarkable as I understand this is what we try to achieve here.
   
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Verpies,

I am still fuzzy with regard to what is planned for the sausage Itsu is working on.

So far, this is all I got:

1.  A "fuel" is positioned in a B field (as homogenous as possible I imagine) with the B field strength dictated by the fuel's diameter and a cyclotron formula based on fast electrons.

2.  At some point, one pole of the magnet assembly providing the B field will have its polarity reversed so that the "fuel" is now between two magnetic poles of similar polarity and strength (using a low turn, high speed coil driven at HV to attain the required ampere turns to attain this condition).

After this, its a bit fuzzy for me.  NMR frequencies have been discussed, as well as a DC and/or low frequency coil.

How does NMR play into this.  How will the required energy/frequency for NMR be coupled to the "fuel"?

Is the DC coil for fine B field adjustment or is the DC/LF coil for something else?

Do you plan to have a separate RF source at a right angle to the B field for NMR based precession phase alignment and spin flipping?

PW
   

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2.  At some point, one pole of the magnet assembly providing the B field will have its polarity reversed...
The reversal of one pole of the magnetic assembly, does not mean that the magnetic field in the middle of the gap will be reversed, too.  It means that in the middle of the gap, the flux will be turned perpendicularly to the axis of the entire device (radially).

Do you plan to have a separate RF source at a right angle to the B field
No, the reason for it should be evident from the above.

...so that the "fuel" is now between two magnetic poles of similar polarity and strength (using a low turn, high speed coil driven at HV to attain the required ampere turns to attain this condition).
Yes and subjected to radial flux which tilts the spins.

Is the DC coil for fine B field adjustment
Right now it is for testing of the field strengths and flux directions.  In operation, yes - for fine B0 field adjustment (in aiding mode).
   
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The reversal of one pole of the magnetic assembly, does not mean that the magnetic field in the middle of the gap will be reversed, too.  It means that in the middle of the gap, the flux will be turned perpendicularly to the axis of the entire device (radially).

Yes, but this is accomplished by making both poles of equal polarity and strength (necessitating reversing the polarity of one pole).

The present experiment (with the large DC coil) is for the purpose of determining the required ampere turns necessary to make the opposing poles identical in polarity and strength.

With the large DC coil turned off, and with the measurement probe oriented so that its detection axis is parallel to the long axis of the sausage, the probe will show a certain B field strength and polarity (as if the probe is between two magnets with opposite polarities facing each other).

While maintaining that same measurement probe orientation, when the large DC coil is activated (assuming the required ampere turns are applied), the probe will measure minimal or no field strength, and rotation of the probe 180 degrees about its long axis would show minimal change because both pole faces are now the same polarity and strength (as if the probe is between two magnets of identical strength and with like poles facing each other)

Ultimately this means reversing the polarity of one pole piece (via the large DC coil or ultimately with the high speed coil).   


I would think the radial flux you are wanting to achieve would not be very homogenous over a very large area within the sample (likely only ring shaped zones of equal strength), and if so, this would greatly broaden the bandwidth of the required NMR frequency throughout the "fuel" (i.e., different areas will have a different resonant frequency).  I'm no NMR expert, but I question whether phase alignment of the precessions or spin flip saturation can be achieved using the field modulation you propose.     

Typically, once the B field is applied to a sample, the perpendicular RF field strength necessary to phase align the precessions is fairly low, with a bit more field strength required to achieve spin flip and moreso for spin flip saturation.  Rather than having to increase the RF field strength, the use of a very stable and homogenous B field and a stable RF source can allow spin flip saturation to be achieved by applying the RF field for a longer period of time instead of increasing its strength.

I had assumed that you wanted to achieve the highest energy level within the sample, i.e., precession synchronization and spin flip saturation, using NMR, and then use a second probing frequency or impulse of some sort to couple additional energy/harmonics into that state.  That does not seem to be the case with this setup. 

It will be interesting to see where this goes.  If you feel that fast electrons will indeed be emitted and that these will induce/cause a usable current flow (as opposed to emiting beta rays, x-rays, etc), perhaps consider using aluminized/metalized dielectric film (mylar, etc) cut out and stacked similar to a bitter magnet.  The last layers of the stack can be cut to have tabs extending out of the "fuel" area so that you can probe for current flow.  Use of thin, insulated layers may be sufficient to reduce eddy currents so that a slot does not need to be cut into the "fuel".  Additionally, the sections could be cut so that "fuel" only exists where your "cyclotronic" track is expected to be.

PW
« Last Edit: 2023-10-28, 06:25:48 by picowatt »
   

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That's great but unfortunately that is not where the ring will be.
I did not expect you to drill a hole and put the probe on the major axis of the entire device.
I meant something else by "middle of the gap".  I can see I must make a drawing.



According to this drawing "middle of the gap" denotes the distance between the two flat surfaces of the ferrite/magnet which is parallel to the Z axis.
I did not mean to imply R=0.
Even more reasons to make a drawing with the coordinate axes marked.
These would be translations.
The center of the Hall sensor can be translated in 3 directions and rotated around 3 axes.  That's 6 degrees of freedom (DOF), total.
In this case - translated in only 2 directions (parallel to the axis Z or R) because the device has a cylindrical symmetry. 5° of DOF.

A twist is synonymous with rotation. In English, twisting means rotation around the longest axis of an object (e.g. the way a screwdriver is usually twisted). But in this case - I was referring to the probe (which meant - around the A axis).


Ok about the "middle of the gap", not on the Z axis, but between the two flat surfaces of the ferrite/magnet.

Concerning twisting, i know it as you said by twisting (turning) a screwdriver, but in post #462 you mention:

Quote
Since your Hall probe is oriented to measure the 90° flux in the gap, the ideal reading exactly in the middle of the gap  should be 0mT.
It should be possible to twist the Hall probe in the middle of the gap, in such a way as to get a lower reading (lower is good in this case).

So i understand from that that having my probe horizontally in the middle of the gap it should be reading 0mT and if not, by twisting it to get a lower reading.

While further down you write:


Quote
Of course, if you rotate the probe 90° in both experiments, then you should get opposite readings, i.e.: higher with 0A and lower with 8A.

From that i understand that rotating (twisting again) the probe 90°, i should get a higher reading (at 0A), which is opposite to your first statement (lower reading).
So i was asking myself what is the difference between the first twist and the second.


Itsu
   

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I now see what you mean when you mention twist the probe.

It is a very subtle twist, only a fraction of a degree is needed to go to 0mT when the probe is in the middle of the gap.
The probe should be perfectly flat parallel to the Z axis and perpendicular to the sides of the core / magnet.

Here you can see that the probe shows 0mT in the middle of the gap where the ring would be with 0A through the coil.




Itsu
   

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I now see what you mean when you mention twist the probe.
The best position for the probe is where it can sense the radial flux.
This is when the probe's A axis is perpendicular to the R axis and Z axis, while its C axis is parallel to the Z axis, and its B axis coincides with the R axis, while the center of the Hall sensor (the red dot) is in the "middle of the gap" and somewhere between OD and ID of the ferrite sliding on the R axis.  The diagram below depicts this, when the Z axis is poking you in the eye.


I think your last photo almost shows this position, but I don't know whether you aimed for it purposely or achieved it inadvertently.

It is a very subtle twist, only a fraction of a degree is needed to go to 0mT when the probe is in the middle of the gap.
Yes and in this position the probe should be insensitive to the flux parallel to the Z axis and maximally sensitive to the flux parallel to the R axis.
This means, that when you apply current to the DC coil, whatever the Hall probe reads in this position will be the radial component of the curved flux in the gap.

The probe should be perfectly flat parallel to the Z axis and perpendicular to the sides of the core / magnet.
Yes, I would rewrite the above as:
The probe's C axis should be parallel to the devices Z axis and perpendicular to the sides of the core / magnet.

Here you can see that the probe shows 0mT in the middle of the gap where the ring would be with 0A through the coil.

Very nice and if you want to measure the 0° flux density in the gap (with 0A through the coil) then all you have to do is twist the probe 90° (around the A axis).
Coincidentally, in this twisted position, the probe should be maximally insensitive to the radial flux, so when you put 8A* through the DC coil, it should read 0mT.

* ...or whatever the ampturns in that coil need to be, in order to perfectly oppose the magnet's flux in the gap.
« Last Edit: 2023-10-29, 19:15:02 by verpies »
   
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Itsu,

Using the setup in your image...

While you have the field nulled with the DC coil activated, and the probe rotated to measure that null, what is the maximum field strength you can achieve when you rotate the probe an additional 90 degrees? (rotate the probe as necessary to achieve a max reading)

With the DC coil deactivated, what is the maximum field strength? (again, rotate the probe as necessary to achieve a max reading).

PW

Added:  For clarity, by "rotate" I mean twist as you would a screwdriver...
   

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verpies, PW,


It takes some time (minutes) to position the probe on the correct positions which is OK with no power through the coil, but with 8A through it, i have only a minute or so before the coil heats up too much.

But i was able to make these measurements with the probe in the middle of the gap:

probe position    current through coil      flux measured
 
      0°                     0A                          S    0mT
      0°                     8A                          S  6.8mT   (cannot get it to 0mT)

     90°                     0A                         S  171mT
     90°                     8A                         S  104mT

Itsu
   

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Its possible to get 0mT with the probe in 0° position while 8A running through the coil, but its in another tilt position compared with 0A through the coil.

   
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