Grenade coil type systems

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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Tariel Kapanadze's Devices (Moderators: verpies, Apecore) > Grenade coil type systems

2024-11-26, 12:34:50
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Author Topic: Grenade coil type systems (Read 39801 times)

Itsu	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #375 on: 2023-10-18, 15:55:43 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Quote from: NickZ on 2023-10-18, 13:36:16 And NickZ can see it as well. Itsu: That overheating when ferrite is used in the grenade or Kacher cores, along with magnets always increased the draw from the input, and overheated my grenade, and other components. I think that that is why we don't see any ferrite or magnets on the Akula Ruslan type of rig. Or that they simply are not needed or used, to avoid that problem. Verpies: As far as I've heard, the Tv yokes are originally made to run at 15KHz for a Tv, or so. Which is also the frequency that was shown by Ruslan's selfrunner, and others. Here is a link to the Andrey245 video. You can also find other videos that he continues to put out. . He is showing where the Hv pulse does the most good, on the PP pulse. Just as Stalker had mentioned and shown, as well. There may also be a video of his showing the empty grenade former tube, and Kacher formers. https://youtu.be/BnffgZc_GsA This is what Stalker was showing. As a comparison. Hv pulse is placed at the negative of the PP pulse. Something which none of us have obtained. Nick, As verpies also mentioned, the recent overheating of my coil in the Fuel-ring device which melted the PLA formers was purely due to the DC current through that bias coil. When you came up with your "overheating when ferrite is used in the grenade or Kacher cores" in the above quote caused some confusion as it was not related to my overheating of the fuel-ring device coil. But i never experienced overheating when ferrite was used in my kacher (i did not use it in the Grenade), but i know the high current sloshing around in the Inductor series LC circuit did create a lot of heat and could potentially melt or weaken the PVC former where the Grenade and Inductor are on. Itsu

verpies	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #376 on: 2023-10-18, 16:39:45 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: Itsu on 2023-10-18, 10:13:40 I had to 3D print the base and coil formers of the device as the long tests, when drawing the flux, caused the coil / cores to heat up above the used PLA plastic (blue) melting point. Bummer... Quote from: Itsu on 2023-10-18, 10:13:40 I had to remove the coil, former and base the hard way With a chisel ? Quote from: Itsu on 2023-10-18, 10:13:40 Here the ring magnets are split on the outside of the device in aiding mode causing a fairly broad parallel flux stretching from half the cores on both side of the Al ring. I am sure that generated flux which is more parallel to the axis somewhere in the gap, but how much current does it take now to turn the flux perpendicular to the axis in the gap ? Because the coil is now adjacent to the magnet, the magnet's flux has nowhere to go when the coil is powered up. Maybe the magnet will go...

Itsu	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #377 on: 2023-10-18, 19:52:21 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Quote With a chisel ? I had to use a hacksaw to start some cuts and use a screwdriver to peel it of from the core Quote I am sure that generated flux which is more parallel to the axis somewhere in the gap, but how much current does it take now to turn the flux perpendicular to the axis in the gap ? Because the coil is now adjacent to the magnet, the magnet's flux has nowhere to go when the coil is powered up. Maybe the magnet will go... It toke 5.5A to move the needle from 0° to 90°, and indeed caused the left most magnets to drop and/or move the coil to the right. Itsu

Itsu	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #378 on: 2023-10-19, 10:30:50 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Quote Itsu, your efforts are indeed greatly appreciated! Thank-you... Picowatt, thanks for your kind words, they are greatly appreciated and encourage me to continue. Hopefully you and others will continue to be interested in these subjects and share your insights with me and verpies. Itsu

AlienGrey	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #379 on: 2023-10-19, 10:59:55 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: verpies on 2023-10-18, 15:39:03 I have observed such spikes when the tip of a half-wave dipole transmitting antenna arcs to ground. Also, through a GDT. Note: In the diagram above, there should be an AC generator in place of R. By the same mechanism, these spikes should also happen when an antinode of a Tesla Coil discharges to ground on every swing. Forest's idea to charge something by electrostatic induction and discharge it by conduction later, is applicable to the above. In the above post you show two animated drawings with activity along the length of the coil, In Nicks vids he tests with his Led and coil also along the length 'Strange that'. Could that be the right hand rule thing ? Also in Delamoto's diagram the flux rotates around the wire so in that case most of the flux wile be focused or most potent along the length of the coil, thus suggesting the magnetic coil is incorrectly polorised. Just a thought. Sil

verpies	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #380 on: 2023-10-19, 11:14:30 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-10-19, 10:59:55 In Nicks vids, he tests with his LED and coil also along the length of 'Strange that'. That is the correct method for determining the position of nodes and antinodes of standing waves along an antenna or a transmission line, including a helix. Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-10-19, 10:59:55 Also in Delamorto's diagram the flux rotates around the wire... The flux always rotates around a current carrying wire. That is the right-hand rule.

AlienGrey	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #381 on: 2023-10-19, 11:19:51 »
Group: Guest	If you have your coil on the lemgth of drain pipe coil your electric volts goes along the length but I think you will find magnetic flux travels out the at 90 drg the side of the coil. thats why the ferrite in a radio is horizontal not vertical ! You can see that trick in most of TK's vids. This techneach is taken advantage of in inducion hobs where the element or coil is wound flat to transfer maximum contact to the ion cooke ware. However thats Joel Lagace work on youtube and others. https://www.youtube.com/@joellagace1679/videos Sil

verpies	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #382 on: 2023-10-19, 11:33:31 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-10-19, 11:19:51 If you have your coil on the lemgth of drain pipe coil your electric volts goes along the length but I think you will find magnetic flux travels out the at 90 deg the side of the coil. Yes, the flux exiting a helical winding eventually turns 90° at its ends, because it must loop around. Also, if you look carefully at the diagram of the flux in a helical winding, which I had posted above, then you will notice that in some places adjacent to the wire, the flux is perpendicular, too. I have marked one such place with a red ellipse.

verpies	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #383 on: 2023-10-19, 11:40:00 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: Itsu on 2023-10-18, 19:52:21 It toke 5.5A to move the needle from 0° to 90°, and indeed caused the left most magnets to drop and/or move the coil to the right. Yeah, that means this position of the coil is not ideal for creating a bucking flux, but it gives us the upper boundary for the number of ampturns needed to rotate the flux in the gap. The low-turn coil needed to accomplish that feat must be positioned adjacently to the gap, deliberately keeping some distance from the magnet, to give its flux some space to be expelled from the fast ferrite. Do you have your gaussmeter already to check whether the flux density in the gap (B) satisfies the condition B > 70500 Gauss / mm of OD ?

Itsu	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #384 on: 2023-10-19, 15:15:55 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	The gaussmeter is expected to be here tomorrow, so i should have it before the weekend.

Itsu	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #385 on: 2023-10-19, 16:20:47 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	I removed the Al ring plus filler, so the mini compass could be inserted more in the center of the device. Now it takes 3.5A to move the needle from 0° to 90° instead of the 5.5A with the big compass further away.

Grumage	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #386 on: 2023-10-19, 16:39:43 »
Group: Renaissance Man Hero Member Posts: 2765	Looking good Itsu…. One for Verpies now. Will the current requirement be lesser or greater once we narrow the gap to the 6 mm sample thickness? I have managed to sort out a “ back door “ deal with a local EDM facility. They hope to be able to “ spark “ some Brass with around a 6 thou gap. Whilst I’m at it would it be prudent to make a Copper one too? Cheers Grum. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!

forest	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #387 on: 2023-10-19, 16:59:36 »
Sr. Member Posts: 472	I think I know why there is a need for "fish like" output from kacher or Tesla coil. It is needed to cumulate charge on one plate if capacitor taking current from ground up to the breakdown for whcih is used spark gap

verpies	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #388 on: 2023-10-19, 17:02:49 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: forest on 2023-10-19, 16:59:36 I think I know why there is a need for "fish like" output from kacher or Tesla coil. It is needed to cumulate charge on one plate if capacitor taking current from ground up to the breakdown for which is used spark gap Which would mean that the breakdown must be tightly controlled/timed.

verpies	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #389 on: 2023-10-19, 17:08:46 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: Itsu on 2023-10-19, 16:20:47 I removed the Al ring plus filler, so the mini compass could be inserted more in the center of the device. Now it takes 3.5A to move the needle from 0° to 90° instead of the 5.5A with the big compass further away. That's good news, so for a 5-turn 5Ω reactance^* coil to generate such opposing flux it would need to be pulsed with only 1.9kV. ^*_{I am only guessing about the inductance and reactance of that 5-turn coil at this point.}

verpies	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #390 on: 2023-10-19, 17:19:03 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: Grumage on 2023-10-19, 16:39:43 One for Verpies now. Will the current requirement be lesser or greater once we narrow the gap to the 6 mm sample thickness? Greater Quote from: Grumage on 2023-10-19, 16:39:43 Whilst I’m at it would it be prudent to make a Copper one too? Yes. Copper is 100% wobbly although its resistivity sucks.

Apecore	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #391 on: 2023-10-19, 17:53:50 »
Group: Moderator Jr. Member Posts: 87	Quote from: verpies on 2023-10-19, 17:19:03 That's good news, so for a 5-turn 5Ω reactance^* coil to generate such opposing flux it would need to be pulsed with only 1.9kV. ^*_{I am only guessing about the inductance and reactance of that 5-turn coil at this point.} Are you suggesting that nano pulsing with approx. 1.9kV you oppose the field from the DC?

verpies	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #392 on: 2023-10-19, 18:05:40 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: Apecore on 2023-10-19, 17:53:50 Are you suggesting that nano pulsing with approx. 1.9kV you oppose the field from the DC? Yes, but I am not 100% certain whether the 1.9kV is enough because I do not know the inductance nor the reactance of that 5-turn coil at the needed frequency. I will know the needed frequency once I calculate the 0° flux density in the gap ...or it is measured empirically. I've been dragging my feet with this calculation because, I trust empirical measurement more.

Apecore	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #393 on: 2023-10-19, 18:16:43 »
Group: Moderator Jr. Member Posts: 87	Quote from: verpies on 2023-10-19, 17:19:03 That's good news, so for a 5-turn 5Ω reactance^* coil to generate such opposing flux it would need to be pulsed with only 1.9kV. ^*_{I am only guessing about the inductance and reactance of that 5-turn coil at this point.} You mean the shape of the 5 turn determines its inductance/ impedance of this primairy coil (Lp)...so we need to calculate the puls frequency (fp)? Or do a test with variable fp?

verpies	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #394 on: 2023-10-19, 18:27:45 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: Apecore on 2023-10-19, 18:16:43 You mean the shape of the 5 turn determines its inductance/ impedance of this primairy coil (Lp) Yes, the inductance is mainly dependent on the coil's cross-sectional area and the permeability of the stuff inside it. Reactance is dependent on the inductance and frequency. Quote from: Apecore on 2023-10-19, 18:16:43 ...so we need to calculate the puls frequency (fp)? Or do a test with variable fp? The pulse width (its fundamental frequency content) is determined by the choice of the fuel ring material and the magnetic flux density (B) in the gap (which cannot be smaller than B=70500 Gauss / mm OD ). Iron has the lowest frequency requirement, but it has other serious problems like low skin depth and only 2.1% of it is susceptible to that pulse, while Copper, Manganese, Bismuth, Aluminum are 100% susceptible.

Apecore	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #395 on: 2023-10-19, 19:10:09 »
Group: Moderator Jr. Member Posts: 87	Quote from: verpies on 2023-10-19, 18:27:45 Yes, the inductance is mainly dependent on the coil's cross-sectional area and the permeability of the stuff inside it. Reactance is dependent on the inductance and frequency. The pulse width (its fundamental frequency content) is determined by the choice of the fuel ring material and the magnetic flux density (B) in the gap (which cannot be smaller than B=70500 Gauss / mm OD ). Iron has the lowest frequency requirement, but it has other serious problems like low skin depth and only 2.1% of it is susceptible to that pulse, while Copper, Manganese, Bismuth, Aluminum are 100% susceptible. So what exactly happens inside the Aluminium splitted rod with respect to the ferrite/ magnets and switching pulses?

verpies	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #396 on: 2023-10-19, 19:37:34 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: Apecore on 2023-10-19, 19:10:09 So what exactly happens inside the Aluminium splitted rod with respect to the ferrite/ magnets and switching pulses? A stream of fast electrons starts circulating in the ring/rod. This has the effect of producing a strong current pulse which generates flux opposing the 0° field and amplitude increases. This is the same effect as the one happening inside the core or windings of the transformer in this video . ( listen to the explanation, enable the subtitles and auto-translation to your language if you do not know Russian, warning: YT translates Push-Pull as "Guns" ) Afterwards you can watch other parts: https://youtu.be/osIqJIum_3Y https://youtu.be/AKdQbysXwng https://youtu.be/dmRPc5QOWiU https://youtu.be/aqdUKistxH0 https://youtu.be/MIxPLLbxU_8 Also, the STAAAR device had this 15t winding that had such low impedance at the 50Hz AC that was fed into it that it represented a virtual short circuit to that signal, yet the ferrite has behaved as if it has increased the inductance of this winding thousands of times and increasing the amplitude of this 50Hz signal on the secondary winding to hundreds of volts. See this and this video. « Last Edit: 2023-10-19, 22:49:40 by verpies »

Apecore	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #397 on: 2023-10-19, 21:30:30 »
Group: Moderator Jr. Member Posts: 87	All, I have done a first clean up of posts back to page 11. I will not modify other peoples posts I only delete non topic posts and direct responses.

verpies	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #398 on: 2023-10-19, 21:39:00 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 3499	Quote from: Apecore on 2023-10-19, 21:30:30 I will not modify other peoples posts I only delete non topic posts and direct responses. I, on the other hand, will not remove other people's post but will edit spelling mistakes in them, bad links and quote framing errors. I would like to be able to move some off-topic posts to other threads, but I think that will require bothering Peter more. Splitting seems to create a new thread every time

Itsu	Re: Grenade coil type systems « Reply #399 on: 2023-10-20, 09:55:49 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 4159	Quote from: verpies on 2023-10-19, 19:37:34 A stream of fast electrons starts circulating in the ring/rod. This has the effect of producing a strong current pulse which generates flux opposing the 0° field and amplitude increases. This is the same effect as the one happening inside the core or windings of the transformer in this video . ( listen to the explanation, enable the subtitles and auto-translation to your language if you do not know Russian, warning: YT translates Push-Pull as "Guns" ) Afterwards you can watch other parts: https://youtu.be/osIqJIum_3Y https://youtu.be/AKdQbysXwng https://youtu.be/dmRPc5QOWiU https://youtu.be/aqdUKistxH0 https://youtu.be/MIxPLLbxU_8 Also, the STAAAR device had this 15t winding that had such low impedance at the 50Hz AC that was fed into it that it represented a virtual short circuit to that signal, yet the ferrite has behaved as if it has increased the inductance of this winding thousands of times and increasing the amplitude of this 50Hz signal on the secondary winding to hundreds of volts. See this and this video. Interesting video's, showing the effect we are after in the Ruslan type of devices too, namely the effect that the Kacher / Tesla coil provides for the current while the Push-Pull provides for the voltage. No input nor output measurements (voltage / current) are shown, so we cannot determine what circuit provides for what part of the input. Output loads are a 40W bulb and 200W bulb. Itsu

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