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Author Topic: Replication attempt of patent NL1032750  (Read 8239 times)
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It is very likely that this is true only at less than the maximum frequency. Make sure it is true always or you will be very disappointed.
All VNAs must provide output or they would not be VNAs.  It is called "stimulus" in their jargon.
However, not all VNAs support "zero-span" sweeps.

I’m afraid you lost me here.

All i need is a simple thing that needs to do a create one single effect and this thing to be incorporated into another thing, but altogether need to be let’s say inexpensive and as much possible made with off the shelf components without the need for an expert skillset. Even if this mean i won’t get a Ferrari in terms of performance or design.

Simple to make and use, easy to reach anywhere in the world.

If it would be for my back garden shed probably few tens of thousands would be more than enough to have a wonder or even couple and mostly i’m not holding back anything if it is in my reach but, it is not my aim.
While few small devices that i want them in the open for the benefit of everyone.

Of course there are many other design of different devices that operate on same principles but my money are with Arie deGeus which proved affordable and very efficient devices backed up in the open by almost complete calculus, theories and prototypes in many fields.

Also my mind is boiling to see some action from few asymmetric capacitors put together powered by almost limitless power but i am prrety sure this attract to many dark things too close, so i keep dreaming about them yet.
   

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I’m afraid you lost me here.
All i need is a simple thing that needs to do a create one single effect
Yeah, you needed a source of high frequency square wave below 100GBP and this VNA fulfills these conditions.  It outputs signals up to 2GHz.
Do you have something that goes to higher f or is cheaper ?
   
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Yeah, you needed a source of high frequency square wave below 100GBP and this VNA fulfills these conditions.  It outputs signals up to 2GHz.
Do you have something that goes to higher f or is cheaper ?
This is exactly what i am looking for and if you don’t mind, please point out for me please, which one is and where i can find instructions and specifications of capabilities ?
   

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He has one so he has all these answers.
See this post.
   

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There are several types of nanoVNA's, i have the one from DEEPELEC the NanoVNA-F at HardWare level HW3.1 running firmware level 1.05 which expands its range to 2.7GHz (start frequency 10kHz).
Be aware that it uses harmonics to get to this 2.7GHz, so the output signal is max. 300MHz

This nanoVNA and some info can be found here:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000402236126.html?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_home.slider_2006565803538.1

https://nanovna.com/?page_id=60

regards Itsu
   
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Hmm, if I consider nanoVNA and tinySA i have to chose from 3 options with next day delivery as im not willing to wait months for half price

1. £56 nanoVNA-H
2. £85 nanoVNA-H4
3. £78 tinySA

The favourite is option 1 for the price, but all 3 taken in consideration depending on their output in usable form for my purpose. I found really hard to discover what exactly they deliver in the form that I need or if there is an adjustable duty as I need to get time on for 3/8 of wavelength with pretty sharp raise/fall and almost no time off to get 2 oscillations per wave length peak to peak. Where wave length is determined by the output frequency at low voltage.

Anyone know where to find necessary info to compare and help me to decide ?

Obviously I don't need all capabilities of this device, if anyone can propose another solution i am willing to try.
   

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if there is an adjustable duty as I need to get time on for 3/8 of wavelength with pretty sharp raise/fall
If you do not need digital adjustments, then this circuit will generate rectangular waveforms with variable duty cycle.  It is very cheap.
   
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If you do not need digital adjustments, then this circuit will generate rectangular waveforms with variable duty cycle.  It is very cheap.


I am far from being an expert in electronics
If you are able to build an signal generator that will output any fixed frequency between 50 and 300 mhz with 5- 10 v and on/off time for a square or sight trapezeiodal wave as per patent drawing as described above and patent, will be happy to purchase it from you if a price and delivery time can be agreed.

If possible i would prefer 250-300 mhz range if wouldn’t draw too much power from source in order to preserve some efficiency in system.
   
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In meantime i finished almost all calculus for the original setup described in patent … all whats missing is a formula or a relation between coil former and operating frequency, as always i try to build something useful not toys or proof of concept, maybe few more days and i will have all necessary details.

My only missing part is an oscillator  :'( i can gather all rest within a week.

Probably i will have to build at least 2 devices to compare, if anyone else is interested to join I can provide intermediary findings and details.
   
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This is for those who likes to play in simulator mode with new devices.
Details of original system as per patent:

Power source = 20 VAC
Coil shape/construction = cylinder/bifilar 1.1 mm diameter enamelled copper wire 300 turns on 165 mm diameter former,
Length of wire 157611 mm in total, 4 harmonics at multiple 1/2 wave length corresponding to 8.5 MHz from SG
Capacitance C = 1.81 pF
Inductance = 0.575 mH
Calculated for resistance R = 1.72 ohms
Q factor = 31431.6  :D

2 capacitors placed in dead middle of the wire (center tap) in series 3 pF + 6 pF safety caps for 135 degree phase shift, or 2x0.5 pF for 180 degree phase shift,
Signal generator 8.5 MHz square wave

Expected output = input + 8% (prototype, proof of concept) Exceptional efficiency with very low losses and no need for fiddling and painful adjustments.

For scale up: increase frequency, which can will lead to decrease of length of wire while increasing the thickness, aspect ratio of coil must be maintained where diameter of  coil former must be at least half of the length and can be calculated using formula from patent for inductance in respect with cross section area of conductor and number of turns. Also choosing length of wire must be 1/2 multiple of wave length, where 4 harmonics ratio should be maintained.
Cascading multiple circuits is desired to multiply the output without impractical solutions impinged upon circuit.

Also using toroidal coil will lead to extra 10% gain, but i don’t have any calculus. Worth to mention that cylindrical coil is less efficient of the 3 methods, where bifilar spiral flat coil is mid range and toroid is best but they add on difficulty to build.

Maximum attention for details is essential !

For any concern at any point please refer to explanations in the patent as guidance, everything you need is clearly exposed and explained.

If anyone want to double check my calculation is highly appreciated, as there might be some non conform approximations or possible errors, probably easy done in a simulator software which I don’t have available.
   

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You did not account for inter-turn capacitance.
You did not account for the resistance of the wire with skin effect and proximity effect.
« Last Edit: 2023-10-18, 15:11:49 by verpies »
   
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You did not account for inter-turn capacitance.
Indeed, my bad.

Many thanks for double check

So, with four decimal precision, the values are:

Total Capacitance C : 1.8100 pF
Inductance L : 0.0005750 H
Q Factor : 19435.0811

New figures with added inter turns capacitance.

I will try to redo calculus with skin effect and proximity when I can get access to software simulator. If anyone can do this would be great as it might take few weeks for me.

They have been taken in account by Arie deGeus as we can see in the patent.

Regarding resistance there will be a decrease because of high frequency and I really doubt that the inventor has possibly underestimated potential losses induced by skin effect and proximity effect.

In fact Arie deGeus has achieved nearly superconducting effect which is explained in cyclotron patent where ohmic resistance in conductors is lost to 95% (at room temperature  ;D )

Overall my guess is these 2 effects unaccounted will lead to a different inductance, little influence on capacitance and Q factor reduction where a Q factor will still be high enough to overcome low losses and  enable ultra efficiency demonstrated.

Probably build and test would be a faster way for me than finding faults in this invention as i mention again: working device has been presented before patent office, along with theory, calculus and method and modus operandi.
As we can see in his patent he only left open the gate for scaling up while also inviting for build and exploit by telling us what to do in order to achieve, once we understand how (and why) it work.

Also i want to add, that I consider myself a builder with a taste for experiments and usually i follow guidelines as much as i can and as much as i understand the working principle for all replications I've made. And my approach is to build to prove or use for myself needs, sharing my findings for public in the open and i am not ashamed to be an idiot, as i don’t know everything if anything at all.

Fig. 1 a,b and c is a sensible approach regarding proximity and skin effect with addition of aether into equation so, for as long as mainstream science deny aether existence i rather do not attempt to simulate or calculate anything, while using all other elements easy to understand for everyone else and trust the inventor.
« Last Edit: 2023-09-26, 14:10:30 by Classic »
   
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Really, it is the inter-winding capacitance as I pointed out previously that you are missing which will greatly affect your calculations and performance.  For example, 1.1mm enameled wire when tightly bifilar wound will exhibit ~ 50pf/M.  Therefore, 157.6 meters of wire will have ~7.9nF of inter-winding capacitance.  How much signal will one be able to couple to these bifilar windings with only 1-10pf in series along with a 180 degrees phase shift? 

IMO, very little.

Pm
   
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Really, it is the inter-winding capacitance as I pointed out previously that you are missing which will greatly affect your calculations and performance.  For example, 1.1mm enameled wire when tightly bifilar wound will exhibit ~ 50pf/M.  Therefore, 157.6 meters of wire will have ~7.9nF of inter-winding capacitance.  How much signal will one be able to couple to these bifilar windings with only 1-10pf in series along with a 180 degrees phase shift? 

IMO, very little.

Pm

Many thanks for your valuable input, is much appreciated as it helps to bring more enlightenment in this working principle of the patent

According to my calculations inter winding will add 7.34 x 10@-14 F, result in being negligible  (in terms of total capacitance)… maybe i am wrong or you just miscount some zeros.

Also, we are not talking about coupling anything as we use wire connection output and in case of cascading wire connection should be used as they need to be placed at some distance apart to avoid interference as per patent description. Also, i think i already stressed enough that those 2 capacitors are placed there for phase shift only and their capacitance needs to be small not to affect the impedance but big enough to make possible phase shift, hence value suggested “at least half pico Farad” but “no more than 10 pico Farad”  and choosing” 1 of the 2 with half value of the other” … or maybe i have described this in a different thread  ???

Also, in claims of the patent we can find that by using other different values of one of the 2 in series different angle shift can be obtained.

Also, if your reference to capacity is regarded to similar devices aka kapanadze, don smith, akula … indeed there it is needed mutual inductance, but this device is much simplified without the need of many other effects in order to amplify and extract energy from the aether … and in some similar devices we can see coils connected by wires at neccessary distance to prevent interfernce.

We can see how the “non existent aether” create so much trouble when we work with fe and ou. That’s why we need to acknowledge first where ou and fe coming from and how to manipulate to benefit from it.

As i explained above, I am trying to avoid dragging the dialogue on this side and possibly focus on build and prove. And once we have them built and working we can discuss further the existence or non existence of something that mainstream science say it don’t exist according to their limited understanding.

So, the main purpose is to build, and make it easy to replicate within some guidelines easy to follow and enjoy the benefits.
Also, attempts to scale up would prove beyond doubts what inventor claims with poof, theory method and instructions.

This remind me of anomalous long lasting batteries experiment which being unexplainable (in their terms) has put people off to use it for their on benefit and still using wrong against their own interest electricity storage in power banks for household solar/wind generation, electric vehicles and everywhere a battery is required. Yes, i am speaking about +100 times more usage of the same amount of energy.

Also i welcome anyone to join and ask or even build if they want and once is proved this patent at least for themselves those who build we can discuss way and method to scale up.
   

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Hi Classic,

some 8 years ago i did a replication of this NL1032759 patent of Arie deGeus together with Peterae and also Smudge was involved.
Somehow i cannot find the thread anymore where we were discussing this.
It could be a hidden thread, but i am not able to retrieve it somehow.

What i do have is some 9 video's i made during this replication (Arie 1 - Arie 9) which are linked below.
The outcome was that we could not detect any abnormalities in this setup.

For what its worth, here are the links to my 9 video's:

https://youtu.be/ZP2aUDFmARo
https://youtu.be/Eq4HN4_Ld6Y
https://youtu.be/m1mNroJnVwI
https://youtu.be/sCeJSbDxVmc
https://youtu.be/hBuyy3VK95I
https://youtu.be/Pzp-bE_Tjok
https://youtu.be/hTfELHmrvOc
https://youtu.be/o7FcJJ1sswY
https://youtu.be/R4vc23FFXYI

Good luck,   regards Itsu
   
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Hi itsu,

First of all thank you very much for your valuable input and help with oscillator part.

I wonder why do you expect to see any “anomalies” with this setup ? Please show me where in patent drawings or explanations can we observe same build as you did ?

Have a look at fig.1 a,b and c and point out for me where this is happening in your design/attempt to replicate, please.
Also construction and aspect do not match anywhere explanations and instructions in patent where cylindrical coils need to be rather large and short where i found that ratio for device explained in patent is d=l/2 where l is length of coil and d is diameter.

Also, using sine wave instead of square

Ignoring skin and proximity effects, please show me what is the relation between length of wire, capacitance and inductance in respect of frequency injected in your device, if there is any and compare with my findings and calculus.

You may want to blur a bit some of your equipment unless you intend to suggest something to those watching your vids. Or maybe is a warning shot ?

Honestly I’m not impressed to see another electroboom video or to acknowledge that there is many of them ready to “debunk” anything as you did in those vids.
   

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Hi Classic,

Quote
I wonder why do you expect to see any “anomalies” with this setup ?

its what the title of this patent suggests:  Increase of electrical energy by means of absorption of Zero - Energy.

Quote
Please show me where in patent drawings or explanations can we observe same build as you did ?

We opted for the cylindrical setup fig. 3B out of the 3 available setups see page 5 of your linked patent above:



Quote
Have a look at fig.1 a,b and c and point out for me where this is happening in your design/attempt to replicate, please.

Impossible as these figures are for all 3 possible setups, see above drawing fig.3a, 3b and 3c.


Quote
You may want to blur a bit some of your equipment unless you intend to suggest something to those watching your vids. Or maybe is a warning shot ?

Not sure what you mean here, why would i blur my equipment? What should i suppose to suggest? Why would this be a warning shot?

We debunked nothing, we worked hard to replicate what is in that patent, and we got not the least of persons to advise (Smudge, Peterae).
But as mentioned, we were not able to detect any abnormalities like "Increase of electrical energy by means of absorption of Zero - Energy."


Regards Itsu
   
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Many thanks for your valuable input, is much appreciated as it helps to bring more enlightenment in this working principle of the patent

According to my calculations inter winding will add 7.34 x 10@-14 F, result in being negligible  (in terms of total capacitance)… maybe i am wrong or you just miscount some zeros.

Also, we are not talking about coupling anything as we use wire connection output and in case of cascading wire connection should be used as they need to be placed at some distance apart to avoid interference as per patent description. Also, i think i already stressed enough that those 2 capacitors are placed there for phase shift only and their capacitance needs to be small not to affect the impedance but big enough to make possible phase shift, hence value suggested “at least half pico Farad” but “no more than 10 pico Farad”  and choosing” 1 of the 2 with half value of the other” … or maybe i have described this in a different thread  ???

Also, in claims of the patent we can find that by using other different values of one of the 2 in series different angle shift can be obtained.

Also, if your reference to capacity is regarded to similar devices aka kapanadze, don smith, akula … indeed there it is needed mutual inductance, but this device is much simplified without the need of many other effects in order to amplify and extract energy from the aether … and in some similar devices we can see coils connected by wires at neccessary distance to prevent interfernce.

We can see how the “non existent aether” create so much trouble when we work with fe and ou. That’s why we need to acknowledge first where ou and fe coming from and how to manipulate to benefit from it.

As i explained above, I am trying to avoid dragging the dialogue on this side and possibly focus on build and prove. And once we have them built and working we can discuss further the existence or non existence of something that mainstream science say it don’t exist according to their limited understanding.

So, the main purpose is to build, and make it easy to replicate within some guidelines easy to follow and enjoy the benefits.
Also, attempts to scale up would prove beyond doubts what inventor claims with poof, theory method and instructions.

This remind me of anomalous long lasting batteries experiment which being unexplainable (in their terms) has put people off to use it for their on benefit and still using wrong against their own interest electricity storage in power banks for household solar/wind generation, electric vehicles and everywhere a battery is required. Yes, i am speaking about +100 times more usage of the same amount of energy.

Also i welcome anyone to join and ask or even build if they want and once is proved this patent at least for themselves those who build we can discuss way and method to scale up.

Classic,

I'm a little confused because I based my calcs on your numbers-

Power source = 20 VAC
Coil shape/construction = cylinder/bifilar 1.1 mm diameter enamelled copper wire 300 turns on 165 mm diameter former,
Length of wire 157611 mm in total, 4 harmonics at multiple 1/2 wave length corresponding to 8.5 MHz from SG
Capacitance C = 1.81 pF
Inductance = 0.575 mH
Calculated for resistance R = 1.72 ohms
Q factor = 31431.6 


Based on this, your I-W capacitance would be ~50e-12*157.6 ~ 7.88nF.  If in total you mean each winding is 157.6m/2 = 78.8m, then your I-W would still be 3.94nF.

Pm

   

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You may want to blur a bit some of your equipment unless you intend to suggest something to those watching your vids. Or maybe is a warning shot ?
He bought that scope on a surplus Australian military auction long time ago.  He is not Australian military nor does he live in Australia. Actually, he lives quite close to you.

P.S.
Partzman's calculations are correct.
   
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Hi Classic,

its what the title of this patent suggests:  Increase of electrical energy by means of absorption of Zero - Energy.

We opted for the cylindrical setup fig. 3B out of the 3 available setups see page 5 of your linked patent above:



Impossible as these figures are for all 3 possible setups, see above drawing fig.3a, 3b and 3c.


Not sure what you mean here, why would i blur my equipment? What should i suppose to suggest? Why would this be a warning shot?

We debunked nothing, we worked hard to replicate what is in that patent, and we got not the least of persons to advise (Smudge, Peterae).
But as mentioned, we were not able to detect any abnormalities like "Increase of electrical energy by means of absorption of Zero - Energy."


Regards Itsu

Hi itsu,

First of all i need to apologise for harsh critic, i only can blame my temperament.

So, the approach on your build is almost fundamental wrong of we pay attention to explanations in patent.

I have to admit that not enough explanation has been given from my side either and i will try to address the issue.

The coil needs to be wound tide as conductors must have as little as possible distance between them where the electric flow run in opposite direction. Also i have to admit that i have deliberately ommited to mention the real motive of why I am not bothered by skin and proximity effect which i will explain as someone is concerned about additional capacitance introduced by interwind capacitance.
If we read correct information given in the patent, the inventor mention that coils need to be wound tide “altough some with some space” where is the case to avoid interwind capacitance.

This means, that the said conductor wound in bifilar must be tide against each other ONLY where they run electric flow in opposite direction and some space in between. Means winding will be in pair of two parallel and space is between pairs.
Also this will lead to obtaining some extra bifilar at each end that will be surplus of 300 turns, which is exactly what we need for connections.
So, i suggest for winding bifilar to add a 3rd wire and wound trifilar where additional wire will be removed after finishing coil and will leave an even gap between bifilar to bifilar. A sensible approach would be to calculate required gap as it will be less than 1.1 mm as desired cross section of wire to be used, or a fishing line can replace a wire and create less confusion. I still need to stress that is very important to maintain tide winding and bifilar running in opposite directions against each other must be in extremely close contact. Obviously their insulation to remain intact.

Also in the video with toroid use i can say is wrong as well, as windings must be tide in pair and must cover the whole ring and calculus should be done to find the right size in respect of wire length and wave length corresponding to frequency used for square signal and also material for the ring, which imo should be plastic not ferrite as it change adversely the outcome

Related to your equipment, i figure it out as verpies already mention, again, my apologise, as my interpretation was someone who just joined the thread is showing me an wrong built device and old military lab instrument and saying is nothing to see here, let’s move along. It is probably wrong to judge like this. Probably an unfortunate coincidence.
   
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Classic,

I'm a little confused because I based my calcs on your numbers-

Power source = 20 VAC
Coil shape/construction = cylinder/bifilar 1.1 mm diameter enamelled copper wire 300 turns on 165 mm diameter former,
Length of wire 157611 mm in total, 4 harmonics at multiple 1/2 wave length corresponding to 8.5 MHz from SG
Capacitance C = 1.81 pF
Inductance = 0.575 mH
Calculated for resistance R = 1.72 ohms
Q factor = 31431.6 


Based on this, your I-W capacitance would be ~50e-12*157.6 ~ 7.88nF.  If in total you mean each winding is 157.6m/2 = 78.8m, then your I-W would still be 3.94nF.

Pm
Well, if i said in total length of wire, means all the wire necessary to wind the coil in bifilar, maybe we are using different formula for calculus as I double check again and figures are correct on my side. Although i have made adjustment even not necessary for “unaccounted” interwind capacitance, see explanation above.

For easy winding, the wire can be folded in half and ulterior cut, i used mm in calculations to improve precision/tolerance but using centimetres is fine.
   
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How am I proceeding when decide to replicate ? First read of patent and evaluation of skillset and materials also availability of materials/ components.

Second read where i try to visualise the final product, than advance to details and mode of operation, study and find principles that apply and evaluate how much of the build involve principle or mechanism that i am not familiar with, evaluate informative resources and their accuracy.

Than step by step describe on paper or computer each stage and guidelines. Analyse strength and weak points on my skillset and knowledge according to each phase of build for each component. Proceed with calculus and return to patent specification to check if guidance my my guidelines correspond and correct. This is the stage where issues need to be sorted out or more clarification needed … e.g. spacing bifilar which I understood later when performing calculus.

I need to mention that i do not hold anything back, but before to have a working device built makes no sense to write a “how to” manual and if anyone needs to know a specific detail that i am aware i am glad to share.

Also I appreciate any further questions or challenges as they only help for a positive outcome while also contribute for better and deeper understanding of patent and approach to new form of matter which will be soon acknowledged by many.
   
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Classic
Fairly horrible comments you made to itsu
And consistent throughout “NIXing”things without
Discussion ?
Also,
Classic
Quote
Also i want to add, that I consider myself a builder with a taste for experiments and usually i follow guidelines as much as i can and as much as i understand the working principle for all replications I've made. And my approach is to build to prove or use for myself needs, sharing my findings for public in the open and i am not ashamed to be an idiot, as i don’t know everything if anything at all.
End quote

Please post your prior work ( you wrote  above that you shared open source?)
Persons who arrive with new handles (  persons here typically don’t change handles )

And “You” Claiming 15 years or more FE research and experience?
Your demeanor and behavior here is all to familiar…
And unacceptable !
Perhaps you go by another handle …?

Yeesh

   

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The coil needs to be wound tide as conductors must have as little as possible distance between them
Did you mean ?:
"The coil needs to be wound tight..."

or a fishing line can replace a wire and create less confusion.
If the fishing line is not removed, its dielectric constant will further influence the intra-winding capacitance.

... bifilar running in opposite directions against each other must be in extremely close contact. Obviously their insulation to remain intact.
The extremely close contact increases the intra-winding capacitance and the dielectric constant of the insulation affects it greatly.
   

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Although i have made adjustment even not necessary for “unaccounted” interwind capacitance, see explanation above.
The intra-winding and  inter-winding capacitance will rear its ugly head any time there is electric potential difference across a dielectric (including air).
   
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