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The argument for perpetual motion « on: 2023-07-08, 17:48:06 »
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An argument for perpetual motion.

Perpetual- Lasting forever; never-ending, continuing or being so for an indefinitely long time.
Motion- The act or process of changing position or place.
Machine- A physical system of fixed and moving parts that performs a task.

The atom has fixed (Proton) and moving (Electron) parts.
An atom is in perpetual motion and it's parts cannot be created/destroyed or stop moving.
The atom also performs the task of being the building block of all physical things in the known universe.
By definition and for all intensive purposes the atom qualifies as a perpetual motion machine.

The problem seems to be that many choose to view things on a superficial level in a subjective manner.
They build a nano-machine made of a few atoms which performs a task and think it's the holy grail.
Where nature has been building machines from atoms into larger and more complex machines for billions of years.

It also helps to understand logic and reasoning to help spot obvious contradictions.
1)The conservation of Energy demands energy cannot be created/destroyed.
2)The conservation of Mass demands the atoms Proton/Electron cannot be created/destroyed.

If the energy and mass of the atom cannot be created/destroyed then it is by definition perpetual.
What do people think "cannot be created/destroyed" and "perpetual" mean?.
Which is where things get a little weird because anyone claiming "perpetual motion" is not real
obviously doesn't understand the conservation of energy and mass.


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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #1 on: 2023-07-08, 19:50:17 »

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You might also note that these tiny perpetual motion machines exist within a vast open space even when our perception is of a solid, such as a ferromagnetic core.  That space is recognised when computing the load line of a permanent magnet, you have to use "the air space occupied by the magnet" in that calculation.  Few people realise the significance  of that because they are not skilled in analysing in the magnetic domain where flux behaves like current and mmf like voltage.  Then it becomes clear because the load line calculation is actually using the reluctance of that geometric air space.  Even in magnetically soft material that air space plays its part, and in particular the magnetic energy stored there that is considerably greater than the electrical energy supplied to charge the inductor.  There we have OU created by Nature, and it doesn't take much effort to deduce that the extra energy comes from the atomic dipoles responsible for the ferromagnetic properties.  Once you accept that these dipoles are acting like tiny generators supplying energy to that air space, it is only a matter of time before man finally finds out how to get them to supply energy to an outside circuit.
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #2 on: 2023-07-08, 23:03:56 »
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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2023-07-08, 17:48:06
An argument for perpetual motion.

Perpetual- Lasting forever; never-ending, continuing or being so for an indefinitely long time.
Motion- The act or process of changing position or place.
Machine- A physical system of fixed and moving parts that performs a task.

The atom has fixed (Proton) and moving (Electron) parts.
An atom is in perpetual motion and it's parts cannot be created/destroyed or stop moving.
The atom also performs the task of being the building block of all physical things in the known universe.
By definition and for all intensive purposes the atom qualifies as a perpetual motion machine.

The problem seems to be that many choose to view things on a superficial level in a subjective manner.
They build a nano-machine made of a few atoms which performs a task and think it's the holy grail.
Where nature has been building machines from atoms into larger and more complex machines for billions of years.

It also helps to understand logic and reasoning to help spot obvious contradictions.
1)The conservation of Energy demands energy cannot be created/destroyed.
2)The conservation of Mass demands the atoms Proton/Electron cannot be created/destroyed.

If the energy and mass of the atom cannot be created/destroyed then it is by definition perpetual.
What do people think "cannot be created/destroyed" and "perpetual" mean?.
Which is where things get a little weird because anyone claiming "perpetual motion" is not real
obviously doesn't understand the conservation of energy and mass.

When you say conservation of Mass cannot be created or destroyed are you taking into account any matter or just the matter that is not alive ? Obvious I’m not talking about human being, let’s say plants or microorganisms, they do have a Mass as well
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #3 on: 2023-07-09, 01:46:02 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2023-07-08, 19:50:17
You might also note that these tiny perpetual motion machines exist within a vast open space even when our perception is of a solid, such as a ferromagnetic core.  That space is recognised when computing the load line of a permanent magnet, you have to use "the air space occupied by the magnet" in that calculation.  Few people realise the significance of that because they are not skilled in analysing in the magnetic domain where flux behaves like current and mmf like voltage.  Then it becomes clear because the load line calculation is actually using the reluctance of that geometric air space.  Even in magnetically soft material that air space plays its part, and in particular the magnetic energy stored there that is considerably greater than the electrical energy supplied to charge the inductor.  There we have OU created by Nature, and it doesn't take much effort to deduce that the extra energy comes from the atomic dipoles responsible for the ferromagnetic properties.  Once you accept that these dipoles are acting like tiny generators supplying energy to that air space, it is only a matter of time before man finally finds out how to get them to supply energy to an outside circuit.
Smudge

That's uncanny and I was working on the "ferromagnetic problem" this afternoon.

I think you nailed it and it seems few people are doing real experiments/analysis and relying more on the status quo ie. simulations. For example, suppose we had two identical solenoid form coil/cores L1 and L2 a small distance apart. What is the total electrical input energy versus the total change in magnetic field density/energy of both cores?. To my knowledge nobody has measured the actual combined field density/energy only used the output on L2 as an approximation of the induced energy. Ergo, there generalizing/averaging.

Many years ago I realized how generalized and deficient many of the experiments/concepts we based our science on are. I had all these very specific questions not found anywhere in the literature to my knowledge. For example, in all our magnetic field based devices(motor/generator/transformer) what is the actual magnetic field density at a given point measured with a non-inductive hall effect sensor versus a inductive sensor like a tickler/sensor coil?. As it turns out we get different values because the process of induction on the conductor influences the measurement. It's not even that difficult, if our measurements are accurate we should expect to see a similar value/time curve on our DSO but we don't.

Which begs the question, exactly when where why and how the discrepancy occurs?.

From my studies in psychology there may be a simple answer. For example, ChatGPT like many people does really well at repeating conventional wisdom. However it cannot know what it doesn't know, understand or deduce through creativity, logic and reason. An AI cannot think or reason and in effect it only regurgitates information in a format it was programmed to which a majority find pleasing. If we have a small knowledge base an AI amazing if we have a large knowledge base it sounds like a marginally intelligent toaster oven.

Excellent post...

AC







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“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #4 on: 2023-07-09, 15:21:44 »

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https://archive.org/details/energy-from-the-vacuum/Energy+From+The+Vacuum/Energy+From+The+Vacuum+05+-+Hidden+Electrodynamics+-+Tom+Bearden+John+Bedini.mp4



As Viktor said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nZYlyFGm50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNR48hUd-Hw


It's definitely an issue regarding perspective, or the lack thereof IMO

People are often shunned for even initiating a conversation about this topic

Damning, all by itself
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #5 on: 2023-07-09, 17:32:08 »
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« Last Edit: 2024-02-27, 16:48:30 by stivep »
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #6 on: 2023-07-09, 20:09:25 »
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Excelsior
Taken from my response at OU.com here, https://overunity.com/19511/the-argument-for-pepetual-motion/msg579981/#new

This is the real problem... from ChatGPT
Quote
Question:if the universe expands and contracts in cycles is this not perpetual?.

Answer:if the universe were to expand and contract in a cyclical manner, with successive periods of expansion and contraction, it would not necessarily be considered perpetual motion. Perpetual motion, refers to a machine or system that can operate indefinitely without the need for external energy input.
As we can see someone has hijacked the term "perpetual motion" to mean a perpetual energy machine instead of continuous motion. Even more absurd is that they tied the fake definition of perpetual motion to an external energy input. Apparently they don't understand how the English language works. Perpetual means continuing or being so for an indefinitely long time. Ergo, I must reject there nonsensical definition as being false and misleading.

In effect, the conservation of energy demands that if anything loses energy something else must gain energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed only transformed ie. converted into other forms. There can be no more or less energy which relates to the change/motion of something be it particles, fields, waves or anything else. If nothing can be created/destroyed then it must be perpetual.

Quote
it's definitely an issue regarding perspective, or the lack thereof IMO
People are often shunned for even initiating a conversation about this topic
Damning, all by itself

Indeed, most understand why the term "perpetual" is taboo and creates tension and it has nothing to do with science.
My view is that the conservation of matter and energy demand a perpetual universe. I don't know why this is true nor do I have any reasonable explanations for it. Like much of science we have countless unknowns which is natural. What I do know is pretending we understand when we don't is not the way forward. So we do the best we can with what we have to work with in the present.

My chat with the ChatGPT AI was interesting and telling. It seems to understand perpetual means constant/unending and that the universe is in constant motion relating to matter and energy ie. laws of conservation. However it gets hung up in a circular reasoning loop relating to the false definition of perpetual motion. It makes sense because the AI is trained with human responses and most people make the same mistakes. They rely on contradictory popular responses instead of first principals. It's strange and it can't seem to connect the dots between the terms perpetual and constant or continuous.

AC



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“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #7 on: 2023-07-09, 22:08:46 »

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One only needs to search "perpetual motion machine" into Youtube to be left utterly cringing at the ridiculousness of some of the results..

To me it seems as if someone pays certain influential people to do what they do (and not YT) so any uninitiated, enquiring mind who dares to see what YT has to show them will be immediately put off and then share the sentiment of "it's a joke" when the truth could not be further from it ..
Take this for example: https://youtu.be/wnJpMX-GXcg

It's a great example of what I am talking about .. How else could you f*ck it up that badly?? (being a technician of sorts already - 3 of them, too!  ;D)

Meanwhile serious and comprehensive resources can also be found many places such as here, and many other sites, where people have gone out of their way to show something undeniable which IMO is nothing short of admirable.
But you have to seek them out, which most folks won't.
(This research applies to everyone as I see it..)


I hate how sure some people are that nothing sinister is at play when it blatantly is !
If you believe what Gerard Morin said, most power companies are already using FE technologies, unbeknownst to the sheeple ..
Go listen to his stuff on YT from 6 years ago!

The existing terminologies around FE are beyond confusing ime,
What we all surely want is a device, of whatever form, provided it's safe and affordable,
which taps into and transduces an unending source of external energy flow,
thus powering itself and providing surplus in the form of btus/charge/Hydrogen production/etcetra

Some work has been done on using TEG cells alongside PV cells which uses a push-pull sort of effect where the panels cool down at night and generate a delta which achieves 50w/m2 throughout the night - which is really cool IMO - will be giving it a go myself soon.
This could be seen as a workaround to the limitations of PV
but other than that the only unending resource people ever have access to is windmills & hydroelectric dams,
both of which operate by way of gravity,

Hence the Skinner build thread  O0

Don't let the psyops get ya  O0
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #8 on: 2023-07-10, 15:04:35 »
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #9 on: 2023-07-11, 06:07:33 »
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Quote from: stivep on 2023-07-10, 15:04:35
Official physics has nothing against Free Energy if  you see it as Energy for free.
That is not complicated nor unknown.
Most of limitations comes from  your  the experimenter  location , regulations in that  particular area and initial investment
needed to get that  energy for free by means of energy  conversion.

Introduced by me  Extraction of energy from Schuman waveguide (the earth  ionosphere) was based  on the
two natural waveguides, that are sharing  very same  boundary - the  Earth .
- where  EM energy from lightning in Earth Ionosphere waveguide  hits Earth Air 2D( two-dimensional) flat waveguide  ( called INTERFACE)
randomly at Complex Brewster Angle trapping it  in  TM mode .( transverse-magnetic) .( inverse square law doesn't apply to waveguides)
As this energy is dynamically present there  - than every single lightning  may contribute energy to the very same 2D INTERFACE.
As this energy is dynamically present there  - it can be  sensed only in the presence of a pulling it receiver Rx acting as a load in resonance at  that
VLF( very low Frequency)
Till Tesla and Marconi existence of EM wave was unknown
Till now  humanity didn't think that  introduction of pulling energy receiver Rx acting as a load in resonance at the right VLF
can make Energy for Free available
In the simple words: if you are  (the source of energy) walking on the street (-INTERFACE) and I put the load of e.g 50kg(W) on you - till than you have no idea that  such load exists.
and now you need to give this energy to this load...  and I have your energy FOR FREE.= FE

Kapanadze whom I visited in 2011 in Tbilisi had no idea why his device works.
He definitely used A to B energy transfer  and  likely   explained  (in above text) Energy Extraction too.
he was no brain nor inventor  but just lucky ..  like lotto winners  to meet these  very stressed old Russian scientists in very first years of 1990ties (starting from 1989)
who had not much more to lose  in Georgia EU during collapse of Soviet Union. ( look at: Georgia 1989-1992 Civil War)
These guys vanished with no known to me trace  shortly after that.
Wesley
I'm not so sure about all that as being the sole sauce of input on the like
there are plenty of TV documentaries explaining so called BS truth America comes out with! 
for a start you have the Yanks make this Rosenberg H atom bomb blasting Hiroshima Japan
and notice the thing produces this huge magnetic pulse that can induce and destroy
electronic equipment by inducing a huge pulse along the pillion wiring system and burning
out transformers isn't that your start of FE know how ?
All you have to do is apply
Fleming's right hand rule or is it the left hand rule and if that's the case unless
this phenomena is put to use instead of greed and wiping out the planet there would
be less risk of eastern block country's wiping out American national grid and its millions
of German made pole transformers it's scared of losing in the next sun's thermal plasma ejections.

So whats the point of American scientists having all this know how if they don't use it or are hiding it
and stopping others from putting it to good use. Other than destroying it's population when the
National grid totally collapses?
Namely the two main components of electricity voltage and magnetism.

Sil
 

« Last Edit: 2023-07-12, 01:35:22 by AlienGrey »
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #10 on: 2023-07-11, 18:45:03 »
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #11 on: 2023-07-11, 23:00:37 »
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Quote from: stivep on 2023-07-11, 18:45:03

We left perpetual motion behind as a nonsense in opinion of entire world science not only American.


...so long as you disregard atoms with their electrons zooming around them eternally and at break neck speed.

But there is apparent perpetual motion where the excess energy comes from an obscure source and so, as Confucius might well have said: "The wise man, he avoids throwing the baby out with the bath water".
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #12 on: 2023-07-12, 01:15:07 »
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #13 on: 2023-07-12, 08:04:20 »
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Here is a simple experiment get an iron horse shoe wind a coil round a small section link the gap with
another pulse the coil with a battery and it will have electrons running round till the end of time just
like the planets. As far as i am concerned that type of thing is perpetual motion.

Just like you living one life time after time after time. but your from the planet of amnesia but what do I care
that's your problem if you cant Handel the truth.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #14 on: 2023-07-12, 10:19:23 »
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Quote from: stivep on 2023-07-12, 01:15:07
I must disagree as modern  science disagree with your statement too.
My previous comment explains the nature of the subject in question. Please read it.
Here: 
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4481.msg105631#msg105631
Wesley

It is rather complicated but if we focusd on the "apparent" overunity issue, there should be scope for heating our homes almost for free this winter.
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #15 on: 2023-07-12, 11:30:00 »

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Here's a thought:

- If modern Heat pumps can be COP : 4.7

- And Thermal - Electrical conversion efficiency can be as high as 40%
(https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2022/04/solid-state-engine-efficiently-converts-heat-to-electricity/

- Then why has no one tried to loop a heat pump? (Besides Dennis Lee, who made some considerable claims about this) (Dude was working with 35 Bar !  :o)
https://youtu.be/l-gu_KCfnGY?list=PLpuBp-WaqFobl1olMsCLo1hzwvTIewbvj&t=202


- They are readily available and easily adapted given the extensive R&D that's been done, the technology could be see as "mature"
An ideal candidate for such experimentation, for those with the correct equipment & skills
A good piece of kit to have anyway, regardless of where you live, provided it's also reversible ..

Seems like it should be relatively straightforward provided the above statement ..
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #16 on: 2023-07-12, 11:42:38 »
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #17 on: 2023-07-12, 12:12:30 »
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« Last Edit: 2024-01-23, 18:14:16 by stivep »
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #18 on: 2023-07-12, 16:30:19 »
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I believe this subject matter is fitting for this thread but if not then please delete.

Below are two papers of mine one of which shows a gain within classical electromagnetism.  I don't wish to create controversy but rather share what I have found.

The concept employs what I call RLE or Reduced Lenz Effect which utilizes in general a constant current loading on the secondary of a transformer.  If one is not familiar with this then I would
recommend reading the first pdf before the second.

Regards,
Pm
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #19 on: 2023-07-12, 16:52:35 »
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« Last Edit: 2024-02-27, 16:47:16 by stivep »
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #20 on: 2023-07-12, 19:20:11 »
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Quote from: stivep on 2023-07-12, 16:52:35
Very nice  work . I do appreciate it very much  as your theoretical contribution.
The postulates of yours may by  absolutely true as an event in the process. ( I did not analyze  it deeply- lack of time)
I was working in similar field too but  my duty was to deliver according to DoD or NASA or DARPA programs requirement.
So in short:
Proposals or applications  claiming:
More energy at output than delivered to the  input, or perpetual motion in the system , is not honored  by  Patent office (conflict with modern science) 
due to all losses in the system.
Example: Your 100.8 is not an absolute value
.https://www.mathsisfun.com/numbers/absolute-value.html
But reduction of losses is absolutely right on the track

Thank you for your contribution
Wesley

Wesley,

Thank you! 

It took me a little bit to see what absolute value you were to referring to but it is the individual gain of L3 in the figure 2 sim.  I think my use of "gain" at this point was a poor choice of words! It is absolute in it's math form however, in the real world, if one were to recover this energy of 100.8uJ, it would be around 85-90% or so to a level of ~85-90uJ.  The over all COP of that same sim is .988 .

Pm   
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #21 on: 2023-07-12, 19:29:52 »
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #22 on: 2023-07-12, 19:43:45 »

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Quote from: AlienGrey on 2023-07-12, 08:04:20
Here is a simple experiment get an iron horse shoe wind a coil round a small section link the gap with
another pulse the coil with a battery and it will have electrons running round till the end of time just
like the planets. As far as i am concerned that type of thing is perpetual motion.

Just like you living one life time after time after time. but your from the planet of amnesia but what do I care
that's your problem if you cant Handel the truth.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
This is an electromagnetic version of the Kunel devices. He used weak cabinet magnets.


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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #23 on: 2023-07-13, 10:06:48 »
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Quote from: stivep on 2023-07-12, 11:42:38
if perpetual motion is rejected by science than overunity is too as energy can not be created nor destroyed.

My Dear  Friend -
To make things around us from  scientific stand point clear once and forever :
-there is no over unity  it is a myth .
-the same as there is no back in time travel, or antigravity, 
-god is not recognized  to be delicate.( Darvin)
-you and I we are  animals, mammals having the same organs and form of  reproduction .
-today  human animal gets heart and other organs transplanted from a pig the closest to you and me.

So yes just by The Nature accident, a pig that could be like you  in the process of evolution, is not.
- but than you would likely become a snack  eaten  with  pleasure or not much by more advanced animals than  you
   ending in slaughterhouse created by them  before you even go to the  age  of  few years old as they may like fresh young food.
   9 years old genetically modified would give birth to the  "fresh food" and males would be mostly  castrated at birth .
   Terrible... this is what a human animal the most cruel creature in the planet earth is doing now with the other mammals  he belongs too.
   Some of the humans were cannibals, but eating other mammals is a cannibalisms too don't you think? I'd appreciate your feedback very much.
   I'm vegetarian.


Nothing is complicated at all.
If you are a mechanic- professional  and  there is another mechanic - professional in something else- than sooner or later  that mechanic may need you too.
But in practice you can do most of  his work under his supervision with the same quality today.
That is how student turns into a scientist , or car mechanic, or rocket manufacturing plant worker.
Wesley

You are arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

We know that energy may neither be created nor destroyed; we all want to heat our homes and drive our cars without cost or harm to ourselves or the planet.

How do we achieve this?
   
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Re: The argument for perpetual motion « Reply #24 on: 2023-07-13, 10:43:42 »
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Quote from: stivep on 2023-07-12, 11:42:38
if perpetual motion is rejected by science than overunity is too as energy can not be created nor destroyed.

My Dear  Friend -
To make things around us from  scientific stand point clear once and forever :
-there is no over unity  it is a myth .
-the same as there is no back in time travel, or antigravity, 
-god is not recognized  to be delicate.( Darvin)
-you and I we are  animals, mammals having the same organs and form of  reproduction .
-today  human animal gets heart and other organs transplanted from a pig the closest to you and me.

So yes just by The Nature accident, a pig that could be like you  in the process of evolution, is not.
- but than you would likely become a snack  eaten  with  pleasure or not much by more advanced animals than  you
   ending in slaughterhouse created by them  before you even go to the  age  of  few years old as they may like fresh young food.
   9 years old genetically modified would give birth to the  "fresh food" and males would be mostly  castrated at birth .
   Terrible... this is what a human animal the most cruel creature in the planet earth is doing now with the other mammals  he belongs too.
   Some of the humans were cannibals, but eating other mammals is a cannibalisms too don't you think? I'd appreciate your feedback very much.
   I'm vegetarian.


Nothing is complicated at all.
If you are a mechanic- professional  and  there is another mechanic - professional in something else- than sooner or later  that mechanic may need you too.
But in practice you can do most of  his work under his supervision with the same quality today.
That is how student turns into a scientist , or car mechanic, or rocket manufacturing plant worker.
Wesley
With all due respect and consideration I don’t think you are right at least not at macro scale. If your science focus on hyper microscopic scale it might not be any perpetual motion. Im not a scientist nor calling myself one but rather educated and using common sense and i can see that everything is in perpetual motion especially life, all forms of life. And this life is perpetual and always influence the matter and energy.

Although over unity is perfect possible trough the life, where we need to supply only a small amount of man made energy to create an disturbance in local environment in order to obtain many times more energy output that we invested as we let the nature to balance what we harvest… not only your patented method to harvest energy from schumann waveguide can do the work even if you deny overunity by doing that.

It might be down to our personal perception of things and phenomenon.

And I hope with some help I will be able to make my first device open source free to use domestic or commercial by anyone and bring some hope to humanity.

PS on the other forum you were fast to judge and name a hoax without considering the piston bounce back as per drawings and produces exactly the phenomenon you described by saying it’s not taking place 👀
« Last Edit: 2023-07-13, 13:12:40 by Classic »
   
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