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Author Topic: Alberto Molina-Martinez principle (The Rotating Magnetic Field)  (Read 5986 times)
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Hello everyone,

There is this concept that has been pressing me for years now and because I have found extremely low information on it, I have decided to share it with you. It is about the principle of the rotating magnetic field being produced by an induction motors stator for example, but instead of inducing a current in the rotor bars it induces a current in a specially designed coil that is wound on a core and positioned where the usual rotor is supposed to be. I have attached the patent of Alberto MOLINA-MARTINEZ, which describes in detail the principle. I have been trying to build it and the simple way to go around it would be to take a 3 Phase induction stator and build basically only the "rotor" part. In order to build that part, I need laser cutting services for silicon steel sheets (0.3 - 0.5 mm thick), which I cannot find in my area. At the moment I am stuck with this project, construction-wise. Until I get moving, I wanted to discuss one main aspect of this machine and that is:
*Is the rotating magnetic field generated by the stator, inducing current in the secondary part by flux linkage or flux cutting? If it is flux linkage the whole thing would be a transformer, an inefficient one because of the air gap between the parts and the low frequency (50Hz). If it is flux cutting, then it is a generator and in theory, it should be very efficient mainly because we are not moving mechanically a piece of magnetized metal near an electrical conductor. The only thing that moves is the flux. Also, in the case of flux cutting, the stator input should be independent of the "rotor's" output as in the case of a car alternator (I have one car alternator laying around and to energize the electromagnet it is required 12V at 5A, but the output, when the electromagnet is mechanically moved of course, can be as high as 12V at 36A, so there is no electrical input power vs electrical output power "equality"). I am judging that this car alternator analogy would be the same for the device we are discussing here, but once again, we should have an advantage because we are not moving the flux mechanically.
I want to hear your thoughts on this, if you have more details about the device, maybe you have built it, etc.
 
All the best,
Vasile
   
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Hi Vasile,

"Flux cutting" and "flux linking" are exactly the same physical phenomenon. It is a mathematical equivalence linked to Gauss' theorem.
The "flux linkage" is the one to use preferably, because the current is due to the force on the electrons, and the force F=q.E is indeed the result of the integration of E on the whole circuit. This is the causal explanation.
The "cutting flux" is not a causal relation. A rigorous application would require the treatment of delayed potentials, since the flux is not local, it is produced at a distance by the electrons at the origin of the field. The "flux cutting" is only a practical calculation tool when we neglect the transmission times. Flux linking and flux cutting are two completely equivalent mathematical ways of treating the same physical phenomenon.


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Vasile
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*Is the rotating magnetic field generated by the stator, inducing current in the secondary part by flux linkage or flux cutting? If it is flux linkage the whole thing would be a transformer, an inefficient one because of the air gap between the parts and the low frequency (50Hz). If it is flux cutting, then it is a generator and in theory, it should be very efficient mainly because we are not moving mechanically a piece of magnetized metal near an electrical conductor.

Most people run into the same problems for the same reasons.

It helps to understand the history and the "Field" was invented to describe an unknown or spooky action. Many forget few if anyone understands what a field is or how it works. So in reality the "field" is more like an imaginary construct, notation or concept to describe an unknown. However many like to use the term "field" liberally to disguise the fact they have no idea what there doing either.

Concerning induction Faraday said, it does not matter how the magnetic field "changes" only that it does. I think he is correct and both flux linkage and flux cutting represent a changing magnetic field density within a space. Real scientists like Faraday liked to cover there bases and not imply too much. In effect, Faraday was implying we don't know all the possible ways a magnetic field could change therefore let's just call it a field change in general.

For example, is a magnetic field displacement flux cutting or linking?. Displacement implies it's neither in my opinion. If we used a type I superconductor it does not repel a magnetic field with more magnetism it expels all magnetism. So we could have an instance where a current/magnetic field was induced in a coil then displaced as the source transitioned to a superconducting state.

What we do know is that extraordinary claims cannot be solved with ordinary solutions. Something different must happen to produce a different result...

AC


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“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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"Flux linking and flux cutting are two completely equivalent mathematical ways of treating the same physical phenomenon." why do you think so ? I think they are two different phenomena
   
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"Flux cutting" and "flux linking" are exactly the same physical phenomenon. It is a mathematical equivalence linked to Gauss' theorem.
The "flux linkage" is the one to use preferably, ...


Ha ha, wow. Just look at all those dumb engineers that use flux cutting to generate electrical power! From automotive alternators to hydro electric plants those morons, including Tesla, could have saved a fortune if they had used flux linking instead!




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Cadman
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Ha ha, wow. Just look at all those dumb engineers that use flux cutting to generate electrical power! From automotive alternators to hydro electric plants those morons, including Tesla, could have saved a fortune if they had used flux linking instead!

Does a switched reluctance generator use flux cutting or linking?.

It uses flux linking to establish a magnetic field between the stator coil and the iron core of the rotor. However since the rotor is moving it forces the stator coil magnetic field to change faster than expected making it a generator. In fact we can use a moving iron core inductor or transformer to produce a similar effect.

As Faraday said, (in induction) it does not matter how the magnetic field "changes" only that it does.

As well, many of the newer power generation technologies are moving away from wound rotors and flux cutting schemes just like many FE inventors did. The price of copper is getting too expensive and wound rotors have cooling issues at high power densities. This ain't 1950 it's 2023...

AC






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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Cadman
Does a switched reluctance generator use flux cutting or linking?.

It uses flux linking to establish a magnetic field between the stator coil and the iron core of the rotor. However since the rotor is moving it forces the stator coil magnetic field to change faster than expected making it a generator. In fact we can use a moving iron core inductor or transformer to produce a similar effect.

As Faraday said, (in induction) it does not matter how the magnetic field "changes" only that it does.

As well, many of the newer power generation technologies are moving away from wound rotors and flux cutting schemes just like many FE inventors did. The price of copper is getting too expensive and wound rotors have cooling issues at high power densities. This ain't 1950 it's 2023...

AC

It sounds like you’re insinuating I think that Faraday was wrong or that there is a mathematical difference between the two phenomenon. Switched reluctance generators are not a new concept, not even in 1950. It may be 2023 but that doesn’t change the fact that in practice a rotating generator / alternator using flux cutting has greater output than a switched reluctance version.

So logically, if there is no mathematical difference between the two kinds of induction there must be some aspect of the flux cutting generator that accounts for it’s superior performance. Can you identify what that would be? Can you isolate it? Can you apply it to a motionless generator?




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Is Flux Linking and Flux Switching the same?

Flux Switching Generators are used on a lot of the better ATGMs, 
long range drones and missles (they replace/fix/mitigate the dead
battery problems)!

Uses the propulsion exhaust as the rotary source.

Click to see animation.
   8)
   
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Solarlab
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Is Flux Linking and Flux Switching the same?

From what I understand flux cutting is when a magnetic field source moves towards then away from the induced. Where in flux linking the magnetic field source expands into then contracts from the induced. So flux switching would qualify as flux linking.

In flux cutting we have a magnet changing position and flux linking a changing magnetic field strength. The only real difference is that a moving magnet carries a fixed field gradient with it while flux linking expands/contracts the field gradient.

It begs the question, if we were a coil or magnetic field sensor and sensed an approaching magnetic field could we tell the difference between a moving magnet or an expanding magnetic field?. My experiments say no and under normal conditions it doesn't matter whether the magnet position or the magnetic field strength is changing.

I think this relates to the common problem of using lumped sums and averages. If we look at the individual atoms and there spin they don't care where the magnetic field comes from only that it does so they can align with it. This is why infinite element analysis will always show more accurate results than lumping stuff together.

AC






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Flux Cutting vs Flux Linkage - as explained to me by someone who probably knows more
than me (I'm not all that knowledgable at this). [Kind of mirrors AC's description.]

His description has some interesting consequences for some relatively simple cases.

Consider a loop flipping in a magnetic field. This describes how a simple generator works.
The value of the induced emf is correctly predicted by either flux cutting or change in flux linkage.
This equality is what leads some people to think that flux cutting and flux linkage give the same results.

If one looks at the derivative of the integral, B is constant so that no emf arises from the B within the
interior of the contour. It is the change of shape of the contour that leads to emf.

On the other hand, consider the loop to be fixed in space while the magnetic field is rotated. The contour
does not change shape, but the integral changes as B changes.

If you review any energy conversion, flux linkages rather than flux cutting are used. Flux cutting is
inadequate to represent any but very simplified models.

"The concepts of flux linkage and flux cutting were developed, in part at least, to come up with ways to
avoid Maxwell's equations."


There are cases where only flux linkage works. The problem arises as to which to use. In the dc machine
you do not want to use both flux cutting AND flux linking. No relativity needed and no change in the flux
linkage law except to realise that the enclosed area may change with time.

Or, just use CAE to solve the complete system as AC points out! To the best of my knowledge, CAE uses, 
and provides values for, Flux Linkage; I've never run across the Flux Cutting term in CAE analysis.

Rules of Thumb(?): [mostly used to describe the process, even if the "results" are the same]

 - Flux Cutting --- conductor moves while flux density "B" remains constant, N & S Poles are at different
angles as the loop rotates;

 - Flux Linking --- conductor stays still while "B" changes, when the magnetic flux linking the coil changes,
an EMF is induced in the coil or conductor.

SL

   
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"Flux linking and flux cutting are two completely equivalent mathematical ways of treating the same physical phenomenon." why do you think so ?
...

This is not a physical question. It is a purely logical, mathematical consequence of treating a vector field.
See Stokes' theorem. I had written "Gauss" but Gauss is only for fluxes through closed surfaces (enclosing a volume). With Stokes the surface can be open, this is the case we are dealing with:
"The line integral of a vector field over a loop is equal to the flux of its curl through the enclosed surface."
This math is true for any vector field.
The vector field here is the magnetic field, and the line integral gives us the voltage along the circuit. If the flux through the surface changes because of a moving conductor or because of a time-varying magnetic field or because of both, the result is the same.



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tExB=qr
Alberto Molina-Martinez's device is a waste of time.  He posted on the overunity dot com forum, several years ago, that the device functions as a transformer and is not OU. At the time he applied for a patent he erroneously thought that is was OU.
   
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Alberto Molina-Martinez's device is a waste of time.  He posted on the overunity dot com forum, several years ago, that the device functions as a transformer and is not OU. At the time he applied for a patent he erroneously thought that is was OU.


Hi Grumpy,

Do you recall why this patent would be deemed a "waste of time" based on a detailed technical analysis?

The OU stuff seems to be based mostly on misconceptions regarding lumping a rotating magnetic field
in with a simple transformer. But, maybe thats not how it works, by chance. Any insights are appreciated. 

Regards,

SL
 
   

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Hi Grumpy,

Do you recall why this patent would be deemed a "waste of time" based on a detailed technical analysis?

The OU stuff seems to be based mostly on misconceptions regarding lumping a rotating magnetic field
in with a simple transformer. But, maybe thats not how it works, by chance. Any insights are appreciated. 

Regards,

SL

The inventor said that he was incorrect in his measurements and that the device in the patent is not OU.

Alberto posted this back when Spherics first disclosed his TPU information, so it was over 10 years ago.

You don't have to prove that a device works to get a patent on it.



Becasue the
   
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The inventor said that he was incorrect in his measurements and that the device in the patent is not OU.

Alberto posted this back when Spherics first disclosed his TPU information, so it was over 10 years ago.

You don't have to prove that a device works to get a patent on it.



Becasue the


Thanks Grumpy for the clarification and information. Appreciate it.

Just curious since he did file a patent and the disclosure looked pretty straight forward as do the claims.

Of course - if he did claim OU his chances of receiving a grant would have been very remote, at best!
However; it may serve, in part, as a defense involving any "infringement claims" in the future...? 

SL
   
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Grumpy
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The inventor said that he was incorrect in his measurements and that the device in the patent is not OU.
Alberto posted this back when Spherics first disclosed his TPU information, so it was over 10 years ago.
You don't have to prove that a device works to get a patent on it.

I never could understand how a person could get confused about whether there was an energy gain or not.

For example, we could simply connect an isolation/step up transformer on the output and send it to a parallel cap on the input. If in fact the output is greater then it will raise the voltage higher than the input and it falls towards zero. I use this setup all the time to measure efficiency and if the output cancels part of the input then whatever the actual source input is represents the total losses within the system.

On smaller setups I use input/output capacitors and a DC/DC converter to send the output back to the input ie. a loop. It's super easy and the caps show us the real energy loss/gain. Energy in a cap equals the 1/2 C V^2 so the voltage on the input cap shows us the real energy loss/gain.

Even more bizarre is people supposedly being smart enough to build a COP>1 device but not smart enough to accurately measure the input/output to determine if there is a gain or not. It just doesn't add up in my opinion. If they can build a COP>1 device accurate measurement shouldn't be a problem.

AC


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“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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FWIW - US20030168921A1 "Continuous Electrical Generator"

Note: This patent application was rejected, like many others, by virtue
that the PTO does not grant patents to devices that "Violates the Law
of Conservation of Energy." See attached:

Well, I humbley disagree based on recent "LinGen" analysis and development plus
demonstrated performance of technically similar devices that have been varified
insitu by very qualified entities (FPL, etc.). 

The patent is very similar to the LinGen, when it's "stretched out" in a linear fashion,
therefore, a detailed analysis is likely worth pursuing.

We will then know for sure if it performs as claimed!

And, please, spare me the typical forum herd mentality of "nay saying and smart ass
remarks, etc." - TIA.    We've seen this 'stuff' far too often around here...


If you want to prove your "value ad" - contribute some viable schemes for re-using the BEMF.
Similar to what "evostars" is doing.

Regards,

SL

   
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Forgot the patent rejection notice (standard for this type of device):

Attached pdf.

   

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https://cloud.mail.ru/public/5u2m/4NF7qxgqN
It seems me here they say about rotation magnetic field inside Rodin coil.  ;)
   

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Yesterday I was putting the rodin   coil into my cunning device.
I didn't notice any rotation. :(

Quote
I mention this because like the the egg of Columbus and all FE devices looks are always superficial and deceiving. We look at something and our mind tries to tell us one thing but the reality of it often suggests another. Kind of like people and I have found very few are who they would have us believe they are but some are.
:)
   

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Did somebody this circuit?
   

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To further my understanding of what is being discussed here, I've being using chatgpt4 to explore what is being discussed. I'd be interested in everyone's thoughts on this. I use chatgpt daily in my business and often it gets things wrong.

Why do flux cutting generators perform better than flux linking generators?

ChatGPT
Flux cutting and flux linking are two fundamental principles of electromagnetic induction used in the design of electrical generators. The primary difference between the two lies in the way they interact with the magnetic field to generate an electromotive force (EMF) or voltage. While both types of generators have their own advantages and disadvantages, flux cutting generators often perform better than flux linking generators due to a few key reasons:

Higher efficiency: Flux cutting generators typically exhibit higher efficiency as they cut through the magnetic field lines at a more optimal angle. In a well-designed flux cutting generator, the conductors move perpendicular to the magnetic field lines, maximizing the rate of change of the magnetic field and thus generating a higher EMF.

Improved power density: Flux cutting generators generally have better power density than flux linking generators. This means that for a given size and weight, a flux cutting generator can generate more power. This is particularly important in applications where space and weight constraints are critical, such as in aerospace or automotive industries.

Reduced cogging torque: Cogging torque is an undesirable phenomenon in generators that leads to pulsating torque production and can cause vibrations, noise, and reduced efficiency. Flux cutting generators usually have a lower cogging torque compared to flux linking generators, which results in smoother operation and reduced mechanical stress on the generator.

Easier cooling: In flux cutting generators, the windings are typically distributed more uniformly, allowing for more effective cooling. This helps in dissipating heat generated during operation, resulting in a longer service life and improved performance.

However, it's important to note that the choice between flux cutting and flux linking generators depends on the specific application and design requirements. Each type of generator has its unique characteristics, and engineers must consider multiple factors such as efficiency, power density, cost, and size to determine the most suitable design for a given application.


Me
What type are switched reluctance  generators

ChatGPT
Switched reluctance generators (SRGs) are a type of electrical machine that operates based on the principles of variable reluctance, which means they rely on the tendency of their magnetic circuit to minimize the reluctance in response to the applied magnetic field. In other words, they exploit the attraction between the rotor and the stator poles to generate torque.

SRGs are neither pure flux cutting nor pure flux linking generators, but they can be considered as a hybrid of the two. The operation of SRGs involves a combination of flux cutting and flux linking mechanisms. When the rotor of an SRG aligns with the stator poles, the magnetic field links through the rotor, and when the rotor moves away from the aligned position, it cuts through the magnetic field lines.

Switched reluctance generators have several advantages that make them attractive for various applications:

Simple and robust construction: SRGs have a simple construction, with no permanent magnets, brushes, or windings on the rotor, which makes them mechanically robust and more reliable.

High-speed operation: Due to their simple rotor design and the absence of windings, SRGs can operate at high speeds without significant limitations.

Fault tolerance: SRGs have independent phase windings, which means that even if one winding fails, the generator can continue to operate with reduced performance.

Cost-effectiveness: The absence of permanent magnets and brushes in the design of SRGs can result in lower manufacturing and maintenance costs.

However, SRGs also have some drawbacks, such as torque ripple, noise, and the requirement of a complex control system to regulate the excitation of the stator windings. Despite these challenges, switched reluctance generators are used in various applications, including renewable energy systems, electric vehicles, and industrial drives.

Me
Do you know of any designs that use the principle of an SRG in a solid state manner?

ChatGPT
A solid-state implementation of a switched reluctance concept does exist and is known as a Magnetic Amplifier, or MagAmp. A magnetic amplifier is a type of solid-state device that uses the principle of saturable reactor for controlling electrical power, based on the magnetic saturation of a magnetic core. It was used extensively in the mid-20th century, particularly in military and industrial applications, before being largely replaced by semiconductor devices such as thyristors and transistors.

In a magnetic amplifier, an AC signal is applied to a control winding, which is wound around a magnetic core. The level of magnetic saturation in the core, determined by the control winding's current, affects the inductance of the output winding. By varying the control current, the output current can be regulated. In this way, the magnetic amplifier can be considered a solid-state equivalent of a switched reluctance machine.

While magnetic amplifiers are not as commonly used today due to the advancements in semiconductor technology, they still find applications in specialized areas such as high-voltage DC transmission, space missions, nuclear power plants, and other environments where robustness, reliability, and resistance to radiation are critical.

Me
Can you recommend any designs, patents or further reading on the MagAMp?

ChaGPT
Certainly! Here's a list of resources to help you learn more about magnetic amplifiers (MagAmps) and their applications:

Books:
a. "Magnetic Amplifiers: Principles and Applications" by Paul Mali
b. "Magnetic Amplifier Circuits" by United States. Bureau of Naval Personnel
c. "Magnetic Amplifiers" by G. V. Poltavtsev

Research Papers:
a. Whitson, J.R. (1960). "Magnetic Amplifiers - A Bibliography". IRE Transactions on Component Parts. CP-7 (3): 93-102. doi:10.1109/TCP.1960.1136327
b. Ogasawara, S., & Akagi, H. (1996). "An approach to real-time current distribution control for a parallel-connected H-bridge diode-clamped multilevel PWM inverter system using magnetic amplifier reactors". IEEE Transactions on Industry Applications, 32(5), 1019-1026.

Patents:
a. US Patent 2,846,573: "Magnetic Amplifier Circuit" by J.L. Kludt
b. US Patent 2,782,289: "Magnetic Amplifier" by A. G. Moles
c. US Patent 3,243,623: "Magnetic Amplifier" by R. A. Lester

Websites:
a. All About Circuits: A good introduction to magnetic amplifiers can be found at https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-9/magnetic-amplifiers/

Please note that some of the books and research papers might not be freely available online and may require access through a library, university, or paid subscription. The patents can generally be accessed for free through the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) website at https://www.uspto.gov/patents-application-process/search-patents or other patent databases such as Google Patents (https://patents.google.com/).

These resources should provide a solid foundation for understanding the principles, design, and applications of magnetic amplifiers.

I'd be interested in your thoughts cheers.
   
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Do you belive chatgpt ?  :o

Can you tell me something about Clemente Figuera devices?

ChatGPT
Clemente Figuera was a Spanish electrical engineer who claimed to have developed a revolutionary electrical device known as the "Figuera's device" or "Figuera's generator" in the late 19th century. According to Figuera, his device was capable of generating electricity without the need for any external source of energy, such as fuel or mechanical input.

Figuera's generator was based on the principle of self-induction, utilizing a set of coils and transformers to harness the Earth's magnetic field and convert it into electrical power. He claimed that the device could produce continuous and limitless energy, providing a potential solution to the world's energy needs.

Figuera demonstrated his device in several public exhibitions in the late 19th century, attracting attention and curiosity. However, his claims were met with skepticism and controversy, and he faced challenges in gaining scientific recognition and financial support for further development.

Although Figuera's device generated interest and intrigue, there is limited information available about its technical specifications or detailed operation. Historical records suggest that Figuera filed a patent for his invention in 1902 but was unable to secure the necessary funding to continue his work.

It's important to note that there is no credible scientific evidence or documentation to support the claims made by Figuera regarding his device's ability to produce limitless energy. Figuera's work remains largely unverified and unrecognized within the scientific community.
   
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Jimboot,

Thanks for the "chatGPT" heads-up! (was not really aware of it till your post above)

Great post and information - plus - sharing the Resource.
[Might also solve some peripheral related "information sharing" concerns I've been wrestling with lately.]

Regards,

SL
   
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@Jimboot,
Think your description of a magamps operation is reversed.  Magamps control AC, DC is applied to the control winding.
   
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