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Author Topic: Electromagnetism and relativity (Read 10916 times)

F6FLT	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #50 on: 2023-03-14, 18:32:09 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2072	Quote from: Cortazar on 2023-03-14, 16:30:54 Hi F6FLT Is it possible to share what relativity forums are those your are talking about ? Regards Cortazar Hi Cortazar, It's a usenet forum in French, it won't be very useful since I'm synthesizing here what it comes out of it. Google has a web gateway to access it but it's better to use a real usenet newsgroup reader. The last thread: https://groups.google.com/g/fr.sci.physique/c/2cwEC1NZGvk The two previous ones: https://groups.google.com/g/fr.sci.physique/c/j4yILqX3-UA https://groups.google.com/g/fr.sci.physique/c/lQ1Ii169cjk/m/7g7HvsHLDAAJ This forum is unmoderated so you'll have to skip the trolls ("Hachel" or "Python" users), the other contributors have a PhD level. François --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

F6FLT	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #51 on: 2023-03-14, 18:59:52 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2072	It's quite incredible. Following a link given by Beaty, I just came across the summary of this book by Oleg D. Jefimenko: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0917406230/sciencehobbyist/ I find in his criticism of Maxwell's electromagnetism and in everything he finds new in relation to it, exactly what relativity tells us when applied to electromagnetism. This guy has understood everything, and he managed to find the consequences of relativity, without using it, that's great! I place a part of this summary here because it is fundamental to take a step back from Maxwell: "This book is a strikingly new exploration of the fundamentals of Maxwell's electromagnetic theory and of Newton's theory of gravitation. Starting with an analysis of causality in the phenomenon of electromagnetic induction, the author discovers a series of heretofore unknown or overlooked electromagnetic interdependencies and equations. One of the most notable new results is the discovery that Maxwell's equations do not depict cause and effect relations between electromagnetic phenomena: causal dependencies in electromagnetic phenomena are found to be described by solutions of Maxwell's equations in the form of retarded electric and magnetic field integrals. A consequence of this discovery is that, contrary to the generally accepted view, time-variable electric and magnetic fields cannot cause each other and that both fields are simultaneously created by their true causative sources -- time-dependent electric charges and currents. Another similarly important discovery is that Lenz's law of electromagnetic induction is a manifestation of the previously ignored electric force produced by the time-dependent electric currents. These discoveries lead to important new methods of calculations of various electromagnetic effects in time- depended electromagnetic systems. The new methods are demonstrated by a variety of illustrative examples. Continuing his analysis of causal electromagnetic relations, the author finds that these relations are closely associated with the law of momentum conservation...". Oleg D. Jefimenko --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Sm0ky2	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #52 on: 2023-03-15, 01:52:25 »
Group: Guest	Relativity is an interesting creature. Everything changes when the perspective changes. Take the accelerating charge. If we accelerate at the same rate we do not observe radiation. Just as the accelerating charge DOES as it sees a non moving charge. (wether either of them are actually “stationary” with respect to some theoretical place in the universe not in motion… doesn’t matter. Only their relative qualities.) We cannot assume our own state Dilation can be positive or negative. Meaning the rate of progression of observed time can increase or decrease. The electromagnetic threshhold occurs as we approach 2MV/cm^2 it is important to note here that local time-space has a frequency component. the rate of discharge should approach a sympathetic frequency for effective manipulation of the rate of time’s progression within the dilation field. It is not advised to be within such a field experiencing dilation of time, even at a minuscule proportion can have profound chronological consequences, with respect to the rest of the world.

Sm0ky2	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #53 on: 2023-03-15, 02:04:19 »
Group: Guest	Electromagnetic time dilation is most compatible with string (and thread) theories There are factors not taken into account in these theories but a close representation can be made. If we assume the first Hamiltonian to be our initial reference and the second to be the resultant time-dilated space when we plot time, the vector can be represented as: cos(theta) theta being the magnitude of the phase shift, or \|f1-f2\|

F6FLT	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #54 on: 2023-03-15, 08:25:48 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2072	@Sm0ky2 I agree, time can contract but only with respect to a reference frame more accelerated than the one we see. From an inertial frame of reference, it is always a dilation of time that we will observe, see why here: https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4370.msg103700#msg103700 With accelerated frames of reference, the kinematics remains relative, but not the dynamics, which is local. We have an absolute acceleration (d²x/dτ²) where τ is the proper time in the accelerated frame of reference, and this although v=dτ/dx=0. In the experiment that I plan, the new frequencies emerging from the distant emitted frequency and the one created locally at the antenna are not due to time dilation. I intend to use a differential setup where the charges of the antenna will be co-moving with the charges of a dummy load, at the local frequency, so no time difference between them. The force on the antenna charges, also sensitive to the distant field, should be proportional to the two accelerations, the local one and the one of the distant charges, resulting when they oscillate, in a sine product, now sine(2.π.F1.t)sine(2.π.F2.t)=1/2cosine(2.π.(F1-F2).t) - 1/2cosine(2.π.(F1+F2*).t). This is the same effect we have in a superheterodyne receiver, except that we would have no nonlinear element, only an effect of relativity. As the signal to be detected will be proportional to the local acceleration of the charges, the current injected in the antenna would amplify the one related to the distant charges. It seems too good to be true, so I still have doubts, that's why I need a verification by maths. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Smudge	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #55 on: 2023-03-18, 15:06:36 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: F6FLT on 2023-03-14, 18:59:52 It's quite incredible. Following a link given by Beaty, I just came across the summary of this book by Oleg D. Jefimenko: https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0917406230/sciencehobbyist/ I find in his criticism of Maxwell's electromagnetism and in everything he finds new in relation to it, exactly what relativity tells us when applied to electromagnetism. This guy has understood everything, and he managed to find the consequences of relativity, without using it, that's great! It goes beyond that, he shows you don't need Einstein's General Relativity (GR) or Special Relativity (SR) at all. He even shows that the so-called proof that GR is correct (the known increase in the perihelion of Mercury) is not proof at all since it can be calculated by means other than GR. He is offering something different to GR. In view of that perhaps we should ignore your strong views (stated here ad nauseum) that we must use classical relativity theory. Smudge

F6FLT	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #56 on: 2023-03-23, 11:58:56 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2072	@Smudge Jefimenko shows nothing at all against relativity, he has no theory, only a treatment of electromagnetism by delayed potentials, which shows the limits of Maxwell's electromagnetism and is part of academic science. On the contrary Jefimenko supports in a remarkable way what relativity predicts in this field, relativity which goes far beyond the only field of electromagnetism he talks about. Relativity explains as well the effects of gravity on the planets, as the magnetic field from the coulombic field, as the shift of clocks subjected to gravity, and many other things, and all this is only the consequence that we live in a 4D space, not 3D. Everyone has the right to believe in the theories he wants, in the wholly concepts of the least eccentric who expresses himself on the WEB or in ether theories that the experiments do not verify, or even contradict. But a theory in science is a logical and well formalized set capable of providing quantified predictions of effects. The opinion of anyone unable to provide convincing quantified experiments or to explain, except by using ad hoc explanations for particular cases, what relativity globally explains from a simple and universal cause, and easily calculates, such as the life span of radioactive elements according to their speed, the perihelion of Mercury or the shift of clocks, is useless. To understand with relativity what smarter people have understood for more than a century before, should be the duty of every researcher, as well as to encourage those who promote and popularize it, instead of reproaching them. This thread is dedicated to relativity in electromagnetism, it is normal that we talk about it "ad nauseum", it is the subject ! When you will be able to propose, instead of knee-jerk criticisms without foundation, a better theory, formalized, and as solid and global as relativity, you will have the conditions to be listened seriously. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Grumpy	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #57 on: 2023-03-23, 14:21:05 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	https://www.as.wvu.edu/phys/OJ/jefimenk.html There is a link to the 1983 Heaviside article which is also in the book linked previously.

Hakasays	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #58 on: 2023-03-23, 22:24:05 »
Hero Member Posts: 568	https://sci-hub.ru/https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0143-0807/17/4/006/pdf Another paper from Jefemenko: Is magnetic field due to an electric current a relativistic effect? Quote Several authors have asserted that the magnetic field due to an electric current is a relativistic effect. This assertion is based on the fact that if one assumes that the interaction between electric charges is entirely due to the electric field, then the relativistic force transformation equations make it imperative that a second field - the magnetic field - is present when the charges are moving. However, as is shown in this paper, if one assumes that the interaction between moving electric charges is entirely due to the magnetic field, then the same relativistic force transformation equations make it imperative that a second field - this time the electric field - is also present. Therefore, since it is impossible to interpret both the electric and the magnetic field as relativistic effects, one must conclude that neither field is a relativistic effect. The true meaning of the calculations demonstrating the alleged relativistic nature of the magnetic field and of the calculations presented in this paper is, therefore, that the idea of a single force field, be it magnetic or electric, is incompatible with the relativity theory. --------------------------- "An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."

Smudge	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #59 on: 2023-03-25, 16:05:26 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1940	Quote from: F6FLT on 2023-03-23, 11:58:56 @Smudge Jefimenko shows nothing at all against relativity, he has no theory, only a treatment of electromagnetism by delayed potentials, which shows the limits of Maxwell's electromagnetism and is part of academic science. On the contrary Jefimenko supports in a remarkable way what relativity predicts in this field, relativity which goes far beyond the only field of electromagnetism he talks about. Your remarks suggest to me that you have not actually read this book. He goes far beyond his treatment of electromagnetism, something that should be obvious from the title of the book. Quote Relativity explains as well the effects of gravity on the planets, as the magnetic field from the coulombic field, as the shift of clocks subjected to gravity, and many other things, and all this is only the consequence that we live in a 4D space, not 3D. And Jefimenko also explains such things. Quote Everyone has the right to believe in the theories he wants, in the wholly concepts of the least eccentric who expresses himself on the WEB or in ether theories that the experiments do not verify, or even contradict. But a theory in science is a logical and well formalized set capable of providing quantified predictions of effects. And Jefimenko's theory is a logical and well formalized set capable of providing quantified predictions of effects. Quote This thread is dedicated to relativity in electromagnetism, it is normal that we talk about it "ad nauseum", it is the subject ! Agreed, but my ad nauseum remark applies to your posts on any thread that you feel deserves such reproach. You must realize now that for you to continue to disparage researchers is not well received here. I would encourage researchers to learn from their endeavors, and steer them in a new direction rather than tell them they are wasting their time. Smudge

Smudge	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #60 on: 2023-03-25, 16:51:28 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1940	@F6, It is of interest that the 4 vector treatment that caused you to abandon your earlier approach (where the electric field expected from movement through a non-uniform magnetic vector potential field is exacty countered by the relativity argument) is also countered by Jefimenko's theory. In his theory movement of the source of the vector potential relative to a stationary observer (or vice versa) causes the source to inherit an electric charge. For my interest in magnetic dipoles as the source in his theory the magnetic dipole inherits an electric dipole. This is found in Appendix 3 of his book and expressed as p_apparent = vXm/c² (he also mistakenly puts the permeability of free space in the denominator that I have not included here). Smudge

Smudge	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #61 on: 2023-03-28, 15:12:16 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1940	While searching through my archive of scientific papers looking for one from Oleg Jefimenko that I vaguely remembered, I found one from George Galeckzi that deals with the magnetic vector potential A field, that was my interest and why I had it. This was from Aperion Vol. 7 from the year 2000. But included there was another paper by Dr. H R Drew dealing with Light-signal” Versus “Intrinsic” Relativity. As this thread is about relativity I post these copies here. Smudge P.S. The Jefimenko paper dealt with electrostatic motors that can extract atmospheric electricity so could be of interest to others here. Maybe should be in another thread but I'll post it here anyway. ------------------------ Locally Induced E Field.pdf (615.18 kB - downloaded 114 times.)

Smudge	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #62 on: 2023-03-28, 15:26:22 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 1940	The Jefimenko paper on electrostatic motors is 15 Mb and must be too large, it won't post here. Edit. Just compressed it. Smudge ------------------------ jefimenkoesmotors-compressed.pdf (4627.51 kB - downloaded 131 times.)

Chet K	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #63 on: 2023-03-28, 15:59:25 »
Group: Ambassador Hero Member Posts: 4045	Smudge Thanks for PDF There is long time open source researcher on electrostatics and “other” ( relativity etc etc ..) https://overunity.com/17100/sm0ky2s-modified-voss-machine/msg575860/#msg575860 I shared your document . Respectfully Chet K PS SmOkey2 is a member here also ..

Sm0ky2	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #64 on: 2023-03-28, 20:35:45 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: F6FLT on 2023-03-15, 02:04:19 El @Sm0ky2 I agree, time can contract but only with respect to a reference frame more accelerated than the one we see. From an inertial frame of reference, it is always a dilation of time that we will observe, see why here: https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4370.msg103700#msg103700 With accelerated frames of reference, the kinematics remains relative, but not the dynamics, which is local. We have an absolute acceleration (d²x/dτ²) where τ is the proper time in the accelerated frame of reference, and this although v=dτ/dx=0. In the experiment that I plan, the new frequencies emerging from the distant emitted frequency and the one created locally at the antenna are not due to time dilation. I intend to use a differential setup where the charges of the antenna will be co-moving with the charges of a dummy load, at the local frequency, so no time difference between them. The force on the antenna charges, also sensitive to the distant field, should be proportional to the two accelerations, the local one and the one of the distant charges, resulting when they oscillate, in a sine product, now sine(2.π.F1.t)sine(2.π.F2.t)=1/2cosine(2.π.(F1-F2).t) - 1/2*cosine(2.π.(F1+F2).t). This is the same effect we have in a superheterodyne receiver, except that we would have no nonlinear element, only an effect of relativity. As the signal to be detected will be proportional to the local acceleration of the charges, the current injected in the antenna would amplify the one related to the distant charges. It seems too good to be true, so I still have doubts, that's why I need a verification by maths. ‘than we see’ The nature of the situation described is not observable from our perspective We would not see what is inside the dilation field. T = < 1 But T can ONLY = 1 from a local perspective. This is a fundamental assumption made by Einstein else it would be T that is relative, not V Proportionally the mathematics is exactly the same. Its like the argument of which object is moving? The observer or the observee? Or does “heat” really exist? Or is it simply different degrees of “cold”? Once you define your perspective, you make unknowable assumptions about the others perspective. We do not know our true velocity, relative to some theoretical motionless state. Therefore we cannot assume that we are the slowest thing in the universe.

Sm0ky2	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #65 on: 2023-03-28, 20:46:35 »
Group: Guest	@Smudge Nice PDF I must debate the “virtualness” of the magnetic current. See the works of Ed. Leedskalnin and subsequently that of David Lambright There is confirmed and repeatable radiation emanating from the magnetic loop similar in many ways to thermal radiation But much different in others (although thermal expression can also be present) If it were merely virtual, there wouldn’t be a physical expression To define this mathematically, we use the time invariant divergence of Ampere’s Law as such: ∇×B=μ0J Which defines the divergence of the volumetric current, along the vector of B on a single plane. For convenience we take the N forward vector of the B field around the loop Volumetric, because of: F = q(v x B) An interesting thing happens when you place two oppositely would coils on either end of a horseshoe of soft iron (of course the PMH can be made) Use this as a generator, and observe the induced magnetic fields With respect to Lenz’s Law and the Lorentz Force By passing a magnet between the legs, such that S pole faces the N side of coil 1, and the N side of the magnet faces the S side of coil 2: We induce current in both directions simultaneously Perhaps it is the relativistic perspective of both magnetic currents opposing one another… that gives rise to the radiation. Normally contained within the material because of the surface vector But when the B vector is made to change greatly over a short distance that does not seem to hold true. « Last Edit: 2023-03-28, 22:10:11 by Sm0ky2 »

Sm0ky2	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #66 on: 2023-03-28, 23:57:30 »
Group: Guest	@Smudge As per the second paper, concerning length contraction: This is derived from the 3rd Hamiltonian, a concept which i am not sure the author fully grasped: Perspective 1 being our own, we observe an object moving towards us at c Perspective 2 an ojbect observes us moving towards it at c In the case where v1 + v2 is greater than c: For T to remain constant, the d in the velocity equation must vary This is not observable from either perspective But from an outside perspective, one encompassing the volume between the two observers: When applying the perspective time dilation for each observer, we find that distance must observationally decrease between the two objects, as a factor of c Or from an alternate perspective: the length of 1 second increases or decreases, from the perspective of the observer that is not doing the observation.

Grumpy	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #67 on: 2023-03-29, 15:37:49 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	I have not read this book, but just received it: Chapter 1, using the principle of causality he shows that electric and magnetic fields can not cause each other. Chapter 2, Faraday induction is not at all an electromagnetic phenomenon Chapter 3, Jefimenko shows that induced currents are caused by the electrokinetic field created by changing electric currents. On page 31, he discusses an electrokinetic impulse. I wonder if this is the same as the radiant electric effect...

Grumpy	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #68 on: 2023-03-29, 16:07:14 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	A couple of papers referencing electrokinetic fields: ------------------------ Electrokinetic field and its waves.pdf (557.61 kB - downloaded 90 times.) Electrokinetics_Propellantless Propulsion source.pdf (446.37 kB - downloaded 94 times.)

Allcanadian	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #69 on: 2023-03-29, 17:36:25 »
Hero Member Posts: 2735	Just snagged a good pdf copy of "electricity and magnetism" here... https://doku.pub/download/oleg-d-jefimenko-electricity-and-magnetism-an-introduction-to-the-theory-of-electric-and-magnetic-fields-408rzeg5o7lx --------------------------- Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

F6FLT	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #70 on: 2023-04-02, 12:50:42 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2072	I remind you that the subject here is "electromagnetism and relativity", not the theories of Jefimenko or others. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

F6FLT	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #71 on: 2023-04-02, 12:50:51 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2072	Quote from: Sm0ky2 on 2023-03-28, 20:35:45 ‘than we see’ The nature of the situation described is not observable from our perspective We would not see what is inside the dilation field. T = < 1 But T can ONLY = 1 from a local perspective. This is a fundamental assumption made by Einstein else it would be T that is relative, not V Proportionally the mathematics is exactly the same. Its like the argument of which object is moving? The observer or the observee? ... In the case of constant velocity, we cannot know from our proper frame of reference if we are moving or not in relation to anything. But in the case of acceleration, it is easy, acceleration is absolute, a simple pendulum in a car will deflect when we turn, proving that unlike velocity, we can know our acceleration from our proper frame of reference. The symmetry of the equations concerns kinematics. From this point of view, accelerations are relative. Not from the point of view of dynamics. A relative velocity is by definition the same in both reference frames, so the β and γ terms are constant when the velocity is constant. In the case of acceleration, the speed varies, but we can consider that at each instant, there is an inertial reference frame where v is the relative velocity of the two other reference frames, and we can apply the Lorentz transforms of special relativity. So how to calculate β and γ so that we can apply, at each instant, these transforms, is the question, and it is not simple. The acceleration is dv/dt, but what time should we use to talk about a relative acceleration? Time is not the same in the two reference frames. Relativity allows us to know perfectly how such an effect will be seen in another frame of reference, including accelerated ones, and even special relativity can deal with accelerations, but it is far from being simple, see here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration_(special_relativity). I would need a mathematician because even with Mathematica, just posing the problem is a problem! --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Sm0ky2	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #72 on: 2023-04-04, 06:47:45 »
Group: Guest	Where in lies the observation problem If we were viewed by an observer and they determined that we were traveling at something closer to c than we think we are moving, their time would be moving faster than they calculate our time as moving. From their perspective, viewing our clocks from our perspective seconds get longer. We would make the same assumption from our perspective trying to calculate time around a black hole. While such concepts may work at close distances and at relative velocities less than c, it is not inherently the case, as time is also not consistent throughout every portion of the universe, irrespective of velocity or acceleration. The same dilation around a black hole must also exist across larger volumes with comparatively similar mass densities. This would include vast areas of dark energy larger than the milky way. Let’s consider the implications of acceleration and velocity under drastically different time references. We can analyze the same problem locally by adding a 3rd observer. one who’s perspectives of the other two would be that of positive and negative time dilation, respectively. Now substituting our perspective with this one, we have both conditions in clear view. Now amplify the electric field to a potential of ~2MV/cm^3 And the frequency at 160.2 Ghz now adjust its phase, forward and backwards. Place your watch outside of the field:

Sm0ky2	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #73 on: 2023-04-04, 06:54:55 »
Group: Guest	Here we see that altering the conditions of local timespace can cause dilation. Even though you weren’t physically running at relative velocities to your watch Now consider the original condition of a far away observer viewing us moving very quickly, Then postulate a case where our observation of them is not the inverse. But rather a completely different observed velocity. We can’t know that they view our velocity differently than we view theirs, and without communication of this data, we cannot calculate the time dilation between those two areas within the universe, to know what our ‘true’ relative velocities are.

Sm0ky2	Re: Electromagnetism and relativity « Reply #74 on: 2023-04-04, 06:56:56 »
Group: Guest	by the way dont do this on a boat, the boat moves over time and theres not a spatial reference for time.

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