PopularFX
Home Help Search Login Register
Welcome,Guest. Please login or register.
OverUnity Research > Benches > Hakasays (Moderator: Hakasays) > Analyzing Transverse and Longitudinal Networks
2024-11-26, 12:21:22
News: Forum TIP:
The SHOUT BOX deletes messages after 3 hours. It is NOT meant to have lengthy conversations in. Use the Chat feature instead.

Pages: [1]
Author Topic: Analyzing Transverse and Longitudinal Networks  (Read 1663 times)
Topic Options img
img  Hakasays
Analyzing Transverse and Longitudinal Networks « on: 2022-09-02, 14:51:41 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 568
This thread is meant as a modern follow-up, to continue exploring the different properties and characteristics of transverse and longitudinal transmission lines as Eric Dollard's Borderlands-era experiments explored in the 80's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNFpJVpm9Cs

Experimental Setup:
* Build a simple Transverse and Longitudinal network using reference below.
* Use the same number and value components for each test (eg: 6ea capacitors valued 0.01uF and 6ea inductors valued at 40mH).
* For real-life experimentation, a simple sine or square frequency generator should suffice for both tests.
* For simulator experiments, use low-impedance drive for Transverse network and high-impedance drive for Longitudinal network.
* For simulator, https://www.falstad.com/circuit should suffice though you will have to use 1ea high value capacitor in leiu of 2x smaller value due to limitations of the sim.
* Measurements can be taken open-circuit or with a high-value resistance between L1+L2.

Transverse and longitudinal networks will exist in any bulk transmission media.  They are inseparable.

Drop a bowling ball into a calm lake and you will generate two waves.  One will be a transverse wave that travels along the surface and ripples slowly outward.  The other will be a longitudinal wave traveling through the lake at great speed, that is undetectable on the surface.  Both waves clearly have very different properties.


Observations to note:
 * Compare 1/4 wave resonant frequencies of both circuits
 * Find the ratio between transverse and longitudinal resonant frequencies.  It should approach a very specific geometric ratio.
 * Compare the Q factor in both networks.
 * Observe differences in voltage magnification at the end terminal.
 * Observe the phase relationship between voltage and current at the end-terminal in both circuits.
 * Add a leakage resistance/conductance to each circuit element and see how it affects losses in both circuits.
 * Add a series capacitance, resistance, or inductance in the middle of the transmission line and observe how it affects the frequency and performance of both networks.
 * Determine the propagation velocity of both circuits using 1/4 wave resonant frequency.  (this one is more dramatic in a real-life network).


I am happy to help anyone who wishes to replicate this work and understand the potential ramifications of it (of which I've barely scratched the surface). O0
« Last Edit: 2022-09-03, 12:40:21 by Hakasays »


---------------------------
"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."
   
img  Hakasays
Re: Analyzing Transverse and Longitudinal Networks « Reply #1 on: 2022-09-03, 00:18:37 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 568
One more thing to note is that these networks can be used as analogues to represent systems of arbitrary size.

Each network element (like 2ea 20mH inductors and 2ea 0.01pF capacitors) could be used to represent a 500ft section of powerline cable.

Or, each element could be used in small-scale to represent single turns in a transformer or Tesla coil.

I find them interesting, because these systems can make it somewhat easier to predict how any given system might react to oscillating currents as well as disruptive/transient impulses.


---------------------------
"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."
   
img  Centraflow
Re: Analyzing Transverse and Longitudinal Networks « Reply #2 on: 2022-09-03, 06:37:55 »

Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2982


Buy me a beer
Quote from: Hakasays on 2022-09-02, 14:51:41
This thread is meant as a modern follow-up, to continue exploring the different properties and characteristics of transverse and longitudinal transmission lines as Eric Dollard's Borderlands-era experiments explored in the 80's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNFpJVpm9Cs

Experimental Setup:
* Build a simple Transverse and Longitudinal network using reference below.
* Use the same number and value components for each test (eg: 6ea capacitors valued 0.01uF and 6ea inductors valued at 40mH).
* For real-life experimentation, a simple sine or square frequency generator should suffice for both tests.
* For simulator experiments, use low-impedance drive for Transverse network and high-impedance drive for Longitudinal network.
* For simulator, https://www.falstad.com/circuit should suffice though you will have to use 1ea high value capacitor in leiu of 2x smaller value due to limitations of the sim.
* Measurements can be taken open-circuit or with a high-value resistance between L1+L2.

Transverse and longitudinal networks will exist in any bulk transmission media.  They are inseparable.

Drop a bowling ball into a calm lake and you will generate two waves.  One will be a transverse wave that travels along the surface and ripples slowly outward.  The other will be a longitudinal wave traveling through the lake at great speed, that is undetectable on the surface.  Both waves clearly have very different properties.


Observations to note:
 * Compare 1/4 wave resonant frequencies of both circuits
 * Find the ratio between transverse and longitudinal resonant frequencies.  It should approach a very specific geometric ratio.
 * Compare the Q factor in both networks.
 * Observe differences in voltage magnification at the end terminal.
 * Observe the phase relationship between voltage and current at the end-terminal in both circuits.
 * Add a leakage resistance/conductance to each circuit element and see how it affects losses in both circuits.
 * Add a series capacitance, resistance, or inductance in the middle of the transmission line and observe how it affects the frequency and performance of both networks.
 * Determine the propagation velocity of both circuits using 1/4 wave resonant frequency.  (this one is more dramatic in a real-life network).


I am happy to help anyone who wishes to replicate this work and understand the potential ramifications of it. O0

That is part of how STEAP works, I just call it a special delay line.

Mike


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
img  Hakasays
Re: Analyzing Transverse and Longitudinal Networks « Reply #3 on: 2022-09-03, 14:39:57 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 568
Quote from: Centraflow on 2022-09-03, 06:37:55
That is part of how STEAP works, I just call it a special delay line.

Mike

Centraflow, I definitely see the similarity, but am still trying to wrap my head around the wave mechanics of the alleged gain mechanism, and how it might relate to the dielectric barrier discharge.???


---------------------------
"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."
   
img  Hakasays
High-Efficiency Transference of Electric Power « Reply #4 on: 2022-09-03, 15:04:00 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 568
Another experimenter exploring the different behaviors of transverse and longitudinal networks:
https://www.am-innovations.com/high-efficiency-transference-of-electric-power

Quote
In this arrangement with a large, low impedance load at the receiver transference of electric power efficiencies have been measured > 99.9% in hair-line thickness (0.08mm) single-wire cavities.

Quote
This post has explored aspects of the TEM and LMD modes in the high-efficiency transference of electric power, including generator matching, tuning, and observation and measurement of various phenomena associated with TMT operation using a linear amplifier generator. The experiments conducted here are in the close mid-field region and form an encouraging starting point to extend the distance between the transmitter and receiver. Further work in progress, and to be subsequently reported, includes transference of electric power using longer single-wires where the transmitter and receiver are placed in different rooms, and buildings, and comparison over the same distance with ground connected transmission, and full Telluric transmission for far-field experiments.

Subsequent tests examine the different matching and tuning characteristics and efficiencies with a similar setup operating in TEM and LMD modes (with peak TEM efficiencies in the 30-50% region).


Adrian's a great resource for high-quality data, and he may to be the first person to have the insight to use a Vector Network Analyzer to look at Tesla Coils. :)


---------------------------
"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Analyzing Transverse and Longitudinal Networks « Reply #5 on: 2022-09-03, 15:58:15 »

Group: Tinkerer
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3948
tExB=qr
JL Naudin performed an excellent replication of both networks back in 1998:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lmdtem.htm
   
img  Hakasays
Re: Analyzing Transverse and Longitudinal Networks « Reply #6 on: 2022-09-04, 01:37:01 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 568
Quote from: Grumpy on 2022-09-03, 15:58:15
JL Naudin performed an excellent replication of both networks back in 1998:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lmdtem.htm

Thanks Grumpy I totally forgot about his replication. :D

Naudin's LMD to TEM ratio was 2.5:1 which may be due to impedance mismatch? (also accounts for the asymmetry in potential measurements at different points in the circuit)

With impedance matching in real circuits, the ratio was supposed to approach 1.57:1 (Longitudinal freq = PI/2 * transverse freq).


---------------------------
"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."
   
img  Hakasays
Re: Analyzing Transverse and Longitudinal Networks « Reply #7 on: 2022-09-04, 01:43:01 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 568
Attached is a circuit simulator mockup for anyone interested in simulator-based experiments:

https://www.falstad.com/circuit/
Select 'File: Open File' and open the attached .txt


(Note: real-life measurements will vary to some degree due to stray capacitance and other losses involved)


---------------------------
"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Analyzing Transverse and Longitudinal Networks « Reply #8 on: 2022-09-04, 01:48:17 »

Group: Tinkerer
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3948
tExB=qr
I recommend that you use unidirectional impulses (DC) rather than sine waves for anything longitudinal.

Like a shockwave, always moving forward, not to and froe.

If you can only use a sine wave, can you bias the entire wave above ground?
   
img  Hakasays
Re: Analyzing Transverse and Longitudinal Networks « Reply #9 on: 2022-09-05, 15:02:36 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 568
Forgot to post the original Eric Dollard Borderlands experiments from which this thread topic was derived C.C:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNFpJVpm9Cs


---------------------------
"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."
   
img  Hakasays
Related materials « Reply #10 on: 2022-09-13, 15:21:51 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 568
Per Nikola Tesla, US Patent 787412:   https://patents.google.com/patent/US787412A/en

Quote
The most essential requirement is, however, that irrespective of frequency the wave or wave-train should continue for acertain interval of time, which I have estimated to be not less than one-twelfth or probably 0.08484 of a second and which is taken in passing to and returning from the region diametrically opposite the pole over the earths surface with a mean velocity of about four hundred and seventy-one thousand two hundred and forty kilometers per second.

Note that the ratio is approx. PI/2 times faster than the expected transverse velocity.

Also note the measurement is not a complete fluke, as it is in-agreement with Eric Dollard's model and measurements here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNFpJVpm9Cs
as well as Charles Wheatstone's measurements of 288,000 miles per second (which may have been accidental due to experimental setup or measurement error.


---------------------------
"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."
   
Pages: [1]
« previous next »


 

Home Help Search Login Register
Theme © PopularFX | Based on PFX Ideas! | Scripts from iScript4u 2024-11-26, 12:21:22