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Author Topic: The Aether and science  (Read 17531 times)
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F6FLT
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The point is that we can explain electromagnetism without having to assume an ether.
Since science consists in modeling what we observe, the ether is useless.
If the proponents of an ether believe in it, let them provide the experiment to prove it.

I would disagree and we cannot explain electromagnetism when we still do not know what an electric or magnetic field is. Both electromagnetism(field theory) and the Aether suffers the same lack of facts to explain what they are in reality. Unless, of course, you have observed the inner workings of a field first hand and know exactly what it is made of and can show all of us. Do you have any proof?... can you explain electromagnetism without a field?.

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That's right, but science is not just an opinion.
In science, one takes the trouble to verify that the "personal version" corroborates the facts, that is what distinguishes it from other intellectual disciplines.
The "personal version" must even demonstrate how it verifies the facts, which is the only way for it to be refutable (falsifiable), and therefore to be scientific.

Yes science requires facts but it's still based on an opinion of which facts apply and there validity.

For example, I reject the space/time theory because it's absurd, it's cheating(making constants variable) and the author (Einstein) agreed it was unworkable. All of the effects supposedly attributed to space/time can be replaced with variable mass-inertia. So I can reject others opinions presented as facts using the same reasoning they rejected mine. It's obviously not about "the facts" because most pick and choose which facts they accept or not.

I call what you did above the "Science Gambit", which is simply a variation on the false cause fallacy and fallacy fallacy.
The argument goes like this, "Science is about facts>>>here are my facts>>>I will not accept any of your facts as facts>>>science is about facts so I must be right". That's not real science, that's an opinion.

Regards
AC


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F6FLT
I would disagree and we cannot explain electromagnetism when we still do not know what an electric or magnetic field is.
...

 C.C
Science does not say that a field is an element of physical reality.
It defines it.  E = F/q is the ratio of the force to the charge at a point in space.

The field is nothing else.

End of the story.


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If we describe ether/aether as the classical 'ultra-rarified medium permeating all space' or the 'medium which conducts light', then I think the Dirac Sea of virtual particles / Quantum Field Theory might be the closest modern equivalent.  I'm not very deep into that field so I can't say authoritatively.
But whatever model/description we use, in the electrical engineering sense it is the impedance of free space, dictated by the apparent constants of permittivity + permeability.

So we can say that regardless of what 'aether' actually is or whether it is motional or what exists in empty space or what gives empty space these properties, it has the discrete properties of farads-per-meter (8.851*10-12), henries-per-meter (4pi10-7), and their relationship impedance of 377 ohms.


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The fact that the quantum vacuum is not empty and could be called "ether", does not prove that the content of this vacuum is a necessity to explain anything else.

For example, if we suppose that EM waves are the propagation of a perturbation of the ether, as all other waves are the perturbation of a medium, then why don't two electromagnetic waves couple through this ether?
Why can't we move this ether carrying a wave, to increase its speed as a sound wave does in the wind?

An ether, but to explain what we could not explain without it?


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Science does not say that a field is an element of physical reality.
It defines it.  E = F/q is the ratio of the force to the charge at a point in space.
The field is nothing else.

Logically if the field wasn't a "physical reality" then in reality it wouldn't be able to act on something physically yet it does. It seems to me your confusing math/equations with reality again.

As well, "science" obviously doesn't say anything because science is not a person only a methodology to study nature. In fact, the majority of people in science would disagree with you and the Primary Fields are considered to be real.

Regards
AC


« Last Edit: 2022-08-14, 23:28:38 by Allcanadian »


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Why can't we move this ether carrying a wave, to increase its speed as a sound wave does in the wind?

I don't know if it is possible to create imbalance or motion, but if it were possible then it would show up as an anomalous increase/decrease in the impedance of a given region of space.
Are there experiments in academia that deal with transients of negative permittivity/permeability, or anomalous positive impedance?

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An ether, but to explain what we could not explain without it?

My point was that several of the present models appear to use an 'ether' but through different names.  Dirac Sea is an aether of a homogeneous, isotropic, lattice if I understand it correctly.  But the word itself has icky connotations, partly to distance from the 19th century engineers, and partly because many will use it as a placeholder word for magic (almost like The Jedi Force ;D)

But, an inhomogeneous Dirac Sea / vacuum flux might conceivably explain things like dark energy and/or dark matter.
« Last Edit: 2022-08-15, 01:00:58 by Hakasays »


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...
Logically if the field wasn't a "physical reality" then in reality it wouldn't be able to act on something physically yet it does. It seems to me your confusing math/equations with reality again.
...
As well, "science" obviously doesn't say anything because science is not a person only a methodology to study nature. In fact, the majority of people in science would disagree with you and the Primary Fields are considered to be real.
...

Scientists characterize what they observe, they do not describe the essence of a supposed underlying reality. You confuse this second method with that of religions, esotericism and pseudo-sciences, which claim to know reality and which have proven their failures by the absence of operational results.

Your assertions are beyond science. The goal is not to try to prove one's faith by facts, but to start from the facts that one observes in order to describe their relations.

At best the ether is a hypothesis. But with you it is an irrefutable assertion. So characterize the observations of the ether as scientists characterize an electric field by E=F/q and you will be credible.




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I don't know if it is possible to create imbalance or motion, but if it were possible then it would show up as an anomalous increase/decrease in the impedance of a given region of space.
Are there experiments in academia that deal with transients of negative permittivity/permeability, or anomalous positive impedance?

I don't know

Quote
My point was that several of the present models appear to use an 'ether' but through different names.  Dirac Sea is an aether of a homogeneous, isotropic, lattice if I understand it correctly.  But the word itself has icky connotations, partly to distance from the 19th century engineers, and partly because many will use it as a placeholder word for magic (almost like The Jedi Force ;D)

But, an inhomogeneous Dirac Sea / vacuum flux might conceivably explain things like dark energy and/or dark matter.

Contrary to what one may think, I am not opposed to the idea of an ether, but on condition that one characterizes in what way it would be the necessary support of the phenomena that one observes, such as the dark matter that you mention, in the same way that the ether supposed in the 19th century was to explain the propagation of EM waves.

Indeed, nobody denies that the vacuum is not really empty, and that this "medium" even has apparent macroscopic properties such as permittivity, permeability, and a limiting speed. But this only makes it an ether if observed objects in it are the result of perturbations, concentrations, deformations etc. of this ether. Otherwise, one can call the quantum vacuum "ether", but it would be useless, it would only be the word that changes, without any paradigm shift.

To my knowledge, only H. E. Puthoff has really tried this with the idea of the PV (polarizable vacuum). By explaining general relativity and electromagnetism by a physical medium endowed with permittivity and permeability, thus making the metric of space-time physical, the idea of ether could be reborn. But he failed. One cannot explain all relativistic phenomena by the PV, and moreover some of them are incompatible with the PV.
In order to believe in an ether necessary to explain observable phenomena, I am waiting for a more credible theory than Puthoff's one (who however sets relatively high standard).



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The fact that the quantum vacuum is not empty and could be called "ether", does not prove that the content of this vacuum is a necessity to explain anything else.

For example, if we suppose that EM waves are the propagation of a perturbation of the ether, as all other waves are the perturbation of a medium, then why don't two electromagnetic waves couple through this ether?
Why can't we move this ether carrying a wave, to increase its speed as a sound wave does in the wind?

An ether, but to explain what we could not explain without it?
I think you need a definition of what is a perturbation of the aether.  Is it a change in the characteristics of the medium, like for sound waves it is the air density?  For our EM wave propagation it is not the characteristics of the medium that changes, they remain the well known free space values.  So we are left with something else within that free space that is the carrier.  We already accept photons as having both wave and particle like objects travelling through space, we accept that particles having zero rest mass (like neutrinos) travel through space.  You seem to accept that a perturbation of the Coulomb field travels through space to account for EM radiation and we know that has photonic character.  Yet you have no explanation for what the Coulomb field actually is, other than it is the force on a charge.  Why not find an explanation for that force?  We already have an explanation for force on a mass particle and that is rate of change of momentum.  That rate of change of momentum can be momentum absorbed from an impacting particle that already has momentum (a bullet strike will knock you backwards), or recoil if a particle leaves the mass carrying momentum (like recoil from a gun).  We accept that zero rest mass particles (those pesky photons or neutrinos) on absorption or emission create force.  So what's wrong with explaining the Coulomb force the same way?  The Coulomb force is embedded in EM theory, it is an E force defined as force on a charge, in my mind it has to be some virtual particle interaction.  If we don't accept that then we have two different types of E force, that transverse E in EM radiation created by particle interaction and longitudinal Coulomb E force that has no explanation but just happens.
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@Smudge

I understand perfectly your approach. You want to explain physical phenomena more deeply from the idea of the ether.

But as already said, and even if you succeed in creating a new theory with the ether, what use would it be if it does not explain anything more than what we already observe and model by the conventional laws of physics, which do not need the ether?

The task is therefore hard for the proponents of the ether: not only to explain in a different way everything that is already explained without the ether, but also to foresee new phenomena that would require the ether and that the classical theories would fail to describe, and to put them in experimental evidence.

My opinion is that it is working backwards. A hypothesis should only be taken when faced with a phenomenon that cannot yet be explained.
That said, it doesn't prevent us from testing ideas like the ether because we have the intuition to be on the right track, but it is important that it doesn't become an obsession and that we don't assume a priori the ether every time we want to explain something that is already explainable without the ether.


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The Coulomb force is embedded in EM theory, it is an E force defined as force on a charge, in my mind it has to be some virtual particle interaction.  If we don't accept that then we have two different types of E force, that transverse E in EM radiation created by particle interaction and longitudinal Coulomb E force that has no explanation but just happens.
Smudge

Science does not explain what things are, but what we observe of them.
The electric field has made it possible to identify the effect of the coulombic force with that of the electric field of an EM wave, it is the same in both cases.
What you are looking for is a deeper level to the field explanation. But to answer which observations the field would not explain?


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Science does not explain what things are, but what we observe of them.
The electric field has made it possible to identify the effect of the coulombic force with that of the electric field of an EM wave, it is the same in both cases.
What you are looking for is a deeper level to the field explanation. But to answer which observations the field would not explain?
I think a measurement of the propagation delay of the longitudinal wave, a change of longitudinal E field that you claim in your other thread propagates instantaneously.  You challenge my measurements as being corrupted by transverse EM radiation without even knowing my set up.  You challenge any attempt to measure such longitudinal waves as being so corrupted, yet it is not beyond the wit of man to design an experiment that is not corrupted.
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... a change of longitudinal E field that you claim in your other thread propagates instantaneously.
...

I'm not saying that at all. A charge at rest or a charge moving at constant speed does not change the field, since the charge cannot know if it is moving or not, it is only relative to an observer. The charge can have as many different speed as we want relative to any observer, it will not change the radial field seen by the charge, which remains well centered on it.
At constant speed the field does not propagate, it moves at the same speed as the charge. It only appears instantaneous to someone like you who believes that it emanates from the charge, when it only accompanies it.
What propagates from the charge, at speed c, is the deformation of the field viewed from an observer in an inertial frame when the charge is accelerated.

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You challenge my measurements as being corrupted by transverse EM radiation without even knowing my set up. 

"What is asserted without proof can be denied without proof"  ;), this is a way of asking for proof.



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I'm not saying that at all. A charge at rest or a charge moving at constant speed does not change the field, since the charge cannot know if it is moving or not, it is only relative to an observer. The charge can have as many different speed as we want relative to any observer, it will not change the radial field seen by the charge, which remains well centered on it.
At constant speed the field does not propagate, it moves at the same speed as the charge. It only appears instantaneous to someone like you who believes that it emanates from the charge, when it only accompanies it.
What propagates from the charge, at speed c, is the deformation of the field viewed from an observer in an inertial frame when the charge is accelerated.

We seldom agree but well said...

I could try to explain this phenomena but Bill Beaty does a much better job than I ever could.
http://amasci.com/elect/charge1.html
WHAT IS "ELECTRIC CHARGE?

In my opinion Bill Beaty's website should be required learning because almost everyone botches the subject of what electricity is.

Regards
AC


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Beaty's final answer is that of the dictionary: "Electric charge is a fundamental property of matter...".
He is right.
And it should be noted that the dictionary definition is a very simplified, popularized version of the scientific, mathematical definition.
Objects in science are only the definitions of properties that scientists make of them. Those who tell us what these objects would be intrinsically, as if they had an objective physical reality, are acting as prophets of a religion that science is not; run away from them!   ;)


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Objects in science are only the definitions of properties that scientists make of them.

Couldn't agree more.
Often times you will see 3 different minds with 3 different explanations following the same fundamental concept/process.

That's why I try to stay focused purely on the impedance aspect, because whatever we call the 'aether', its properties are fundamentally based around permittivity and permeability.
So if it does have a mobile/elastic/particulate nature then it would show up as things like anomalous positive or negative inductance/capacitance, and far more likely to appear during transients.


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   Guys:
   Current science does not believe what Tesla (our greatest scientist inventor) says about the Aether. The word ether is meant for something else.
   Nor can conventional science today proof or disprove any properties of the Aether. As it can't be seen nor measured, as yet. Yet, its effects can be studied.
   Or is it that some of you guys come to this thread and free energy forums, that concerns this subject, to try and throw it under the carpet? Using conventional science as your benchmark.  As it seams like it, most of the time.
   
   Just so there is no confusion, I do believe what Tesla says, concerning the SOURCE of all that is, the Aether. He was clear about this source of power. And I will use that logic to further our interests in self running solid state devices. As I don't expect conventional science to show us the way. As it is politically controlled, and is not always science, but plain lies at times. Keeping us all uninformed, and to keep us paying their destructive polluting and dangerous (Nuclear powered) electric companies, instead. Of which Russia has now stolen and taken over one such site, and can even use that threat against people, as a weapon of mass destruction, and China, and other such countries, as well.
   Over 700 nuclear facilities are already built, with many more in the making. Lots of money to be made with that "science" At the expense of true and safe electric power, from personal devices, in ones home, or work places. You think that these hundreds of nuclear plants are safe,  really.
   Is CERN safe.  I doubt it, they are playing with fire.  Is that the same science that some of you believe in???
   Do you think that the dark governments underground secretive facilities don't know about free energy?
   There is a reason that we are being kept in the dark about all this. And there is much more that can be said, concerning what is truth, and what are lies and disinformation, today. How many people have been killed over the free energy ideas, and self running devices. None?
 Think about it, if you care, for a change.   We already know what conventional science wants us to think about all this.
   

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Couldn't agree more.
...

If you don't agree with the scientists' definitions, define your own objects.

Nobody here would have the idea of the electron if scientists had not defined it.
Let those who do not agree with the objects of the scientists define their own instead of plagiarizing them without ever having the rigor to define them in the only adapted language, the maths.


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NickZ
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Current science does not believe what Tesla (our greatest scientist inventor) says about the Aether. The word ether is meant for something else.
Nor can conventional science today proof or disprove any properties of the Aether. As it can't be seen nor measured, as yet. Yet, its effects can be studied.
Or is it that some of you guys come to this thread and free energy forums, that concerns this subject, to try and throw it under the carpet? Using conventional science as your benchmark.  As it seams like it, most of the time.

I consider it more a debate of what science is and what it isn't...
Science is a methodology to study nature based on the facts we know versus all the various theories like Aether, space-time, the big bang, wormholes and so forth.

However, what were often debating here is considered invention and discovery which is different from science. We could think of science as a beginners level and invention/discovery an advanced level. Invention/discovery is where we take known science and expand upon it versus simply repeating what everyone else is doing and saying. Even more interesting is when we discover something new which happens all the time.

For example, science doesn't recognize UFO technology as a fact however I and another person observed one first hand as a fact. While science can give me some background information on how it could work it cannot tell me how it does work in reality. We could think of it this way, by observing a real UFO first hand I discovered that in fact they are real and science or others opinions have little to do with it. So we as individuals can know any number of things as a fact which others do not for no other reason than others didn't observe the fact and we did. Ergo...seeing real proof is believing, not so much opinions of things we didn't see.

So we should understand science generally deals with things we can prove and invention/discovery deals with all the unknowns.
Science is kind of like our nagging mother always saying "you can't do that" but then we go ahead and do it anyways, lol.

Regards
AC


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I thought I would put on paper the journey that brought me to my present view of the aether.

F6 previously said
Quote
Science does not say that a field is an element of physical reality.
It defines it.  E = F/q is the ratio of the force to the charge at a point in space.  The field is nothing else.
I think he will agree that the force on a charge is a physical reality since we can measure it.  I think he will also agree that when we measure that force, then whatever produced that force is not within the charge itself, it is something some distance away from the charge, hence we need some description of how that displaced object applies that force and that is the E field as a vector.  I think he will also agree that we can say that the E field describes an external force on the charge, it is not internally derived.

We have the same situation regarding gravitational force on a mass, it is an external force.

Now go back to our test charge in the presence of a nearby charge, and we suddenly accelerate our test charge.  When we do this we find that the inertia of our test charge is different from its mass inertia, it has some additional inertia that has previously been called electrostatic inertia even though this is not a static situation.  The additional inertia is related to the value of our test charge, the value of the nearby charge and its distance (actually it is the potential from the nearby charge).  I guess an explanation for this is that the additional force required to accelerate our test charge is because it sees a distorted or perturbed E field caused by the acceleration.  And I guess that one would still consider the modified E field as imposing an external force on the test charge.

Now get back to mass inertia.  I am in one of these imaginary space ships that drift through space for many years and is an enormous rotating hollow disc with human beings living in a pseudo gravity environment on the inside surface of the rim.  We all feel this pseudo gravity as an external force on our bodies.  Why oh why cannot science accept that it really is an external force?  OK we can do various experiments inside this spaceship to discover that it is not the same as that on the surface of the Earth, but that does not detract from it being an external force.  Do we as scientists really believe that by a change of velocity mass has this magical property of resisting change of motion without this being an external force?  If you accept that a perturbed E field can apply an external inertia force on a charge, why not accept that a perturbed gravity field can do the same?

Our mechanical science has taught us that force is equivalent to the rate-of-change of momentum and that can come from different sources.  As a boy scout I did my firefighters badge that took me to the local fire station where I used one of their high pressure hoses.  The force trying to push me backwards was exhilarating, and of course that principle of ejecting mass at high velocity has its uses elsewhere in rockets, jet engines and even hose pipes to provide lift against gravity.  Later in my career I got interested in gyros when I saw Prof. Laithwaite’s infamous lecture on TV.  I attended one of his subsequent lectures when he toured the country and corresponded with him on my idea for a gyroscopic lifter.  The prototype never worked but it did do weird things like tilt itself sideways.  That was when I came to the conclusion that inertia forces are external forces acting on the body.  Looking for a source for those external forces I read other people’s views notably those of Sciama, Mach and Aspden.  When you draw the Coriolis force vectors acting on the mass at the rim of a precessing gyro they point into space.  In any other branch of science that would be considered an external force.
 
Momentum can be absorbed by a body and that creates a force, if I am hit by a bullet I am forced backwards.  Momentum can be ejected from a body, if I fire a rifle the recoil forces me backwards.  And it is not just mass momentum that obey those rules.  The Crooke Gradiometer is a good example of a force resulting from the difference between absorbed and emitted momentum, in this case the momentum of photons as particles.  It is this line of thought that brought me to believe in an aether that is space filled with an enormous density of neutrino-like particles travelling at velocity c arriving in our small part of the universe from all directions.  Forces occur by absorption and emission of these particles, and it is ridiculously simple to evolve a theory for inertia based on absorption and emission of these particles.  This also gives a formula for what inertial mass really is based on the collision cross section of the mass particle and the quantities of absorbed and emitted momenta that differ only when the velocity of the mass is changing.  Taking this further the space particles can be given spin, as neutrinos have spin, and if the spin vectors of the arriving particles can influence the direction in which particles are emitted it is possible to extend this model into EM phenomena to give an explanation for what charge really is, for electric and magnetic forces all based on momentum exchange.  Also this play into relativity because the direction of the spin vector of arriving space particles as seen by a moving particle depends on the relative velocities.

My aether is not an elastic aether that appears to deform, it is space filled with particles that carry momentum and spin, and it is the particle pattern in the form of the distribution of their spin vectors relative to their momentum (velocity) vectors that appears to deform.  If all the space particles arriving at our test particle have spin vectors aligned with their velocity vectors we inherit inertia but zero gravity (the so-called flat space of GR).  In general all arriving particles have some misalignment between their spin and velocity vectors, they have a transverse component.  Another form of flat space is where the transverse components are all random.  A nearby mass (a) shields some of the space particles arriving from that direction because it absorbs them, but then (b) emits them as longitudinal particles (spin vector aligned with velocity vector) to arrive at our test mass.  These arriving particles have lost their transversivity.  This alters the background arrival pattern at our test mass so it endures a gravitational pull towards the nearby mass.  In GR this is the so-called curved space.

Smudge
 
   

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tExB=qr
Do you have more on this theory?
   
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   Guys:
   Current science does not believe what Tesla (our greatest scientist inventor) says about the Aether.

Current science is right about that.

Quote
The word ether is meant for something else.

We expect those who talk about it to define it with the same rigor that scientists define their own objects. Otherwise, the ether not being defined, everyone says anything about it and it is no more verifiable than a pink unicorn horn.

Quote
   Nor can conventional science today proof or disprove any properties of the Aether.

Science can't tell us about the Pink Unicorn either. So what? Would it be a clue that it exists?

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As it can't be seen nor measured, as yet. Yet, its effects can be studied.

It remains to be proven, and the burden of proof is not on the scientists.

Scientists will define the ether if they need to, otherwise they do not need a superfluous hypothesis.


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I thought I would put on paper the journey that brought me to my present view of the aether.

F6 previously said I think he will agree that the force on a charge is a physical reality since we can measure it.

This way of thinking is the main cause of misunderstanding: believing that the measurement would be the indicator of a precise physical object.
A measurement evaluates effects that are obviously physical. But a measurement does not validate as an independent physical object the mathematical choices made to describe it, like the electric field.
This misunderstanding is a confusion between the map and the territory.

One can define the gravitational field as Newton did, or as Einstein did. But a Newtonian gravitational field is not a curvature of Einstein's spacetime, although to some degree of accuracy they both verify the measurement.
So we cannot say what is the "physical reality" behind the mathematical objects that describe it (assuming it exists and is independent of the observer). An object like the "gravitational field" remains a mathematical object, not a physical object. Again, science describes what is observed, not what exists independently of the observation.

The worst thing is that many people who confuse the map and the territory, create an imaginary territory from the map of conventional science, then want to redefine the scientists' map, claiming that the scientists are wrong, that the electron or the electric field is not this or not that, as if they were absolute realities... This is totally meaningless.

Having said that, physics is obviously not complete, so we can be interested as you did (and I did too), in Sciama or Mach. The problem is that we are not the only ones, scientists do the same thing and are as curious as we are, maybe even more. If most of these respectable scientists like Sciama or Mach did not have their theories accepted by their peers, it is because they were incompatible with some of our observations, especially Mach.
When we question a scientific theory, it is not enough to explore only part of what the alternative theory would explain, but also to explain everything that would remain unexplained when we disqualify the questioned theory.

If Maxwell's equations are claimed to be false, then relativity is also false, both being fully compatible, and everything they explained is also to be explained by the replacement theory.
What cannot be taken away from science is a great internal coherence, of which the rare exceptions are known and studied, such as the incompatibility between QM and GR, dark matter...
My opinion is that it would be much better to demonstrate experimentally new or unexplained effects before trying to replace proven physical theories. If there is nothing new to see, there is no new theory to make. One can have the idea of a new theory, like the ether, to imagine new effects that could be experimented, but then I urge amateur theorists to do as Einstein did: formalize it, with proposals for experiments demonstrating it, before talking about it.



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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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  I attended one of his subsequent lectures when he toured the country and corresponded with him on my idea for a gyroscopic lifter.  The prototype never worked but it did do weird things like tilt itself sideways. 


Smudge
[/quote]

Hello Smudge.
   Can you share more information on this gyroscopic lifter ?

Regards
Cortazar
   

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If you don't agree with the scientists' definitions, define your own objects.

Nobody here would have the idea of the electron if scientists had not defined it.
Let those who do not agree with the objects of the scientists define their own instead of plagiarizing them without ever having the rigor to define them in the only adapted language, the maths.

It's probably that kind of hostility that gets you kicked off the other sites, trying to berate someone that's agreeing with you. C.C
I was trying to stay focused on the science, that if such perturbations exist, of how they might be created/detected in EE.

Specifically:
Quote from: Hakasays
I don't know if it is possible to create imbalance or motion, but if it were possible then it would show up as an anomalous increase/decrease in the impedance of a given region of space.
Are there experiments in academia that deal with transients of negative permittivity/permeability, or anomalous positive impedance?


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"An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."
   
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