Energy from electron spin

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Author Topic: Energy from electron spin (Read 17833 times)

e2matrix	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #125 on: 2022-08-20, 17:31:20 »
Sr. Member Posts: 345	I'm guessing now the most likely issue with my pair of magnets is they have become weaker since they are not neodymium. Although they still adhere to the vertical metal area I had kept them without rolling down. I'll still be testing my 'full moon' theory though in a couple weeks.

F6FLT	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #126 on: 2022-08-20, 20:56:33 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	Quote from: Smudge on 2022-08-20, 17:12:58 Has anyone considered the sphere contact area when rotating might create tribo-electric charging of the contacting surface? Then there could be electrostatic forces coming into play. Smudge I doubt they would be significant. I even wondered if the magnets could be rotated by an electrostatic method rather than by friction (charge them on one part only and then apply a rotating electrostatic field), but that seems experimentally unattainable. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Smudge	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #127 on: 2022-08-21, 15:49:51 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	A rotating sphere will roll along a surface at a velocity determined by the rotation rate and the angle between the rotation axis and a line normal to the surface. The image below shows the case for the rotation axis parallel to the surface, normal to the surface and at an angle. Looking at broli's video where the rotation axis looks to be normal to the surface, perhaps it is actually at a slight angle. You can count the rotations as the sphere moves and it looks like the rotation axis could be about 7 degrees off the normal. It would be useful if broli could confirm that. If so then it is a rolling action, not a sliding action. Smudge ------------------------ Energy from electron spin Rolling sphere.jpg (54.9 kB, 977x613 - viewed 666 times.)

broli	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #128 on: 2022-08-22, 06:42:06 »
Sr. Member Posts: 329	Quote from: Smudge on 2022-08-21, 15:49:51 A rotating sphere will roll along a surface at a velocity determined by the rotation rate and the angle between the rotation axis and a line normal to the surface. The image below shows the case for the rotation axis parallel to the surface, normal to the surface and at an angle. Looking at broli's video where the rotation axis looks to be normal to the surface, perhaps it is actually at a slight angle. You can count the rotations as the sphere moves and it looks like the rotation axis could be about 7 degrees off the normal. It would be useful if broli could confirm that. If so then it is a rolling action, not a sliding action. Smudge Yes I believe this would be the main mechanism of action. Due to the tilt of gravity and forced alignment of both magnets with each others fields, you get an interesting play between spin and and translation which causes the magnets to move in a particular direction while spinning. I don't think this has anything to do with the gyromagnetic nature of electrons which is mentioned in the paper. Or it could be partially but that contribution will probably be tiny in my opinion. This is also confirmed by not being able to replicate the first effect reliably; that is the magnet prefers to translate and spin around its axis of magnetization instead of roll over its axis of magnetization. This heavily dependent on my geographic orientation which indicates to me earths magnetic field is probably the cause of this effect. Away from the equator there is a significant downwards/upwards pointing magnetic field.

JimBoot	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #129 on: 2022-08-22, 12:03:27 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 1770	Just catching up on this thread. I still have some spheres from Rodin experiments. Thanks for the vid Broli. I'll have to have a closer look.

F6FLT	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #130 on: 2022-08-25, 13:33:10 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	My ball magnets have arrived: neodymium N38 coated with chrome, Ø 19 mm. My test tubes being too narrow, I took glasses, and reproduced without any problem the effect described by Vedmedenko, whatever the direction of rotation of the tubes. With plastic glasses (see photo), the force to rotate the tubes is very important, much higher than the weight of the magnets. With real glasses, the balls rise very easily. By causing a rapid but short rotation, the balls continue to rise on their own for several centimetres, after the rotation of the tubes has stopped. The greater the angle of rotation of the tubes, the greater the distance they then travel. This is quite amazing. [error. See reply #134]. If we are not careful, the balls will be ejected from the glasses. So I put the glasses upside down to avoid ejection, but then the balls go up much less easily. It is incomprehensible, unless the conicity of the glasses, however weak, has an importance. ------------------------ Energy from electron spin magnetVedmedenko.jpg (197.86 kB, 980x735 - viewed 538 times.) « Last Edit: 2022-08-27, 14:42:34 by F6FLT » --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

broli	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #131 on: 2022-08-25, 14:21:37 »
Sr. Member Posts: 329	Quote from: F6FLT on 2022-08-25, 13:33:10 My ball magnets have arrived: neodymium N38 coated with chrome, Ø 19 mm. My test tubes being too narrow, I took glasses, and reproduced without any problem the effect described by Vedmedenko, whatever the direction of rotation of the tubes. With plastic glasses (see photo), the force to rotate the tubes is very important, much higher than the weight of the magnets. With real glasses, the balls rise very easily. By causing a rapid but short rotation, the balls continue to rise on their own for several centimetres, after the rotation of the tubes has stopped. The greater the angle of rotation of the tubes, the greater the distance they then travel. This is quite amazing. If we are not careful, the balls will be ejected from the glasses. So I put the glasses upside down to avoid ejection, but then the balls go up much less easily. It is incomprehensible, unless the conicity of the glasses, however weak, has an importance. I would perhaps think that the glass wall gets thinner at the top.

F6FLT	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #132 on: 2022-08-25, 14:36:35 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	Quote from: broli on 2022-08-25, 14:21:37 I would perhaps think that the glass wall gets thinner at the top. This may well be the case. Unfortunately I don't have the right containers to check it. I just did another test: glass plate on one side, glass on the other. The balls still go up easily, but much better when you roll the glass along the glass plate (even with the bottom up) than when you rotate it on the spot. Surprisingly, a translation of the glass plate while the glass remains fixed, does not cause the balls to rise. Could it be that the friction on the glass plate is not sufficient to make it rotate? I also added a spacer between the glass and the plate. Beyond 7 mm, i.e. about 1 cm between the balls, the force is no longer sufficient for a clear rise (thickness of the glass plate: 1.2 mm. Thickness of the glass at the top: 2.2 mm). If we replace the glass plate by a ferromagnetic plate (the wall of my PC), and keep only one ball in the glass, the effect works perfectly, whether we make the glass roll, or turn it on the spot. ------------------------ Energy from electron spin magnetVedmedenko2.jpg (180.56 kB, 834x556 - viewed 522 times.) « Last Edit: 2022-08-25, 17:18:40 by F6FLT » --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

F6FLT	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #133 on: 2022-08-26, 13:09:31 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	Single magnet experiment, it works: The glass with the magnet is rotated or rolled along a vertical ferromagnetic wall. I did the test with a metal cabinet (see photo), and the wall of my PC: the magnet also goes up easily. ------------------------ Energy from electron spin vedSingleMag.png (1445.29 kB, 956x763 - viewed 513 times.) --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

F6FLT	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #134 on: 2022-08-27, 14:39:46 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	Quote from: F6FLT on 2022-08-25, 13:33:10 ... By causing a rapid but short rotation, the balls continue to rise on their own for several centimetres, after the rotation of the tubes has stopped ... Erratum: this is an artifact, related to the fact that the wall thickness of a glass is less wide near the rim than near the bottom, as Broli had understood. So when the rim is up, the magnets come closer as they rise, which adds a vertical force that may cause them to continue to rise after the glass has stopped rotating. When the rim is at the bottom, the magnets don't rise as well because they move away from each other. Same thing with the glass against a ferromagnetic wall. We optimize by putting the glasses head to tail: the increase in thickness of one is compensated by the reduction in thickness of the other. In this condition, the magnets stop when we stop turning the glasses. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Smudge	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #135 on: 2022-08-27, 15:36:41 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	I use the FEMM 2D finite element simulator because it is free, but it does have a 3D facility. When set up in axisymmetric mode it gives you a cut across a 3D picture, but only for systems that are truly axisymmetric. The sphere is such a system so I have looked at the field at the surface of the sphere and this confirms my view that the radial field emanating from the poles is stronger than the field at the equator. Thus the natural position of the two spheres is pole-to-pole. And against a ferromagnetic surface it is pole-to-pole with its image. Movement of the surface causes a slight tilt from this orientation (both spheres tilt) so now their axes are not aligned and it seems to me that they spin about their tilted axes so that the final movement across the surface as seen in the reference plane of the surface is at an inclined angle. In the reference system of the observer the sphere moves at right angles to the surface movement and does not move with the surface, which seems counter intuitive, but in actual fact it is simply rolling along that inclined line. I don't see any potential for over-unity here. Smudge

F6FLT	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #136 on: 2022-08-27, 17:23:33 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	Quote from: Smudge on 2022-08-27, 15:36:41 ... Thus the natural position of the two spheres is pole-to-pole. And against a ferromagnetic surface it is pole-to-pole with its image. I confirm. The balls are oriented with their magnetic axis horizontal. I marked with a point the position of a pole of a ball. At rest and when it rolls, the mark remains at about 90° from the wall. Quote Movement of the surface causes a slight tilt from this orientation (both spheres tilt) so now their axes are not aligned and it seems to me that they spin about their tilted axes so that the final movement across the surface as seen in the reference plane of the surface is at an inclined angle. In the reference system of the observer the sphere moves at right angles to the surface movement and does not move with the surface, which seems counter intuitive, but in actual fact it is simply rolling along that inclined line. I don't see any potential for over-unity here. Smudge The effect of gravity is missing in your analysis. We understand the horizontal tilt of the axes when we turn the glass. And there is another tilt, the one by the force of gravity. The center of gravity of the balls is at a distance of one radius from their contact point on the wall. The force of gravity therefore exerts a torque that will cause a slight vertical tilt downward. The combination of the two results in the ball rolling upwards along the wall, as you say. But the axis of rotation remains almost horizontal. If we reduce this to the earth's sphere, it is as if the rolling was only on a circle of high latitude, for example 85° or more, and not on the whole circumference. If this is the case, I do not understand the complexity of the analysis in Nature, with the invocation of a break of temporal symmetry. But there is a point that our explanations do not take into account. If it is a simple rolling on the wall, why does the increase in friction reduce the effect, until it becomes impossible? --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

F6FLT	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #137 on: 2022-08-28, 10:27:36 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	I think I finally understood the mechanism, the same whether you have 2 magnets or one and a magnetic surface. The magnetic axis is close to the horizontal, but not exactly because of the gravity force on the ball magnet. It is slightly tilted. Turning the glass tends to pull the sphere away from the distant magnetic attraction point (the other magnet, or the magnetic surface). The force of attraction opposes it, which triggers the rolling of the ball to stay close to the attraction point. This rolling is done around the magnetic axis, imposed, which is slightly tilted vertically by the force of gravity as we have seen, and slightly tilted horizontally because of the drive of the sphere by the glass. The tread is a very small circle around the magnetic axis. Its tilt, deviated from the horizontal by gravity and from the vertical by the drive of the sphere by the glass, is oriented in such a way that the bearing forces the sphere to climb on the glass wall. This explains everything else. If the surface is not hard enough (plastic), the tread widens, and as it is along a circle of very small radius around the magnetic axis, the frictional force that drives the sphere is no longer exerted on this one circle, or poorly. If the glass is rolled on a magnetic surface rather than turned on the spot, the effect is more important because the tendency to move the sphere away from the point of maximum attraction is without friction. To verify the principle, I made the following test with a glass plate: on one side a ball magnet, on the other a cardboard and the other ball. The cardboard is translated in relation to the glass plate. The sphere on the cardboard is driven, does not rotate, remains at constant height. The sphere on the glass side is driven by the other one and rotates on an almost horizontal axis. The sphere on the cardboard fixes the magnetic attraction point of the sphere on the glass plate side. The sphere on the glass plate side loses a degree of freedom: attracted by the other one, it can't go up either. Only the tilt of its magnetic axis by gravity makes that its drive along the plate causes its rotation by the friction of its contact point on the glass, which is offset from the axis. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

broli	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #138 on: 2022-08-30, 09:39:16 »
Sr. Member Posts: 329	Quote from: F6FLT on 2022-08-28, 10:27:36 I think I finally understood the mechanism, the same whether you have 2 magnets or one and a magnetic surface. The magnetic axis is close to the horizontal, but not exactly because of the gravity force on the ball magnet. It is slightly tilted. Turning the glass tends to pull the sphere away from the distant magnetic attraction point (the other magnet, or the magnetic surface). The force of attraction opposes it, which triggers the rolling of the ball to stay close to the attraction point. This rolling is done around the magnetic axis, imposed, which is slightly tilted vertically by the force of gravity as we have seen, and slightly tilted horizontally because of the drive of the sphere by the glass. The tread is a very small circle around the magnetic axis. Its tilt, deviated from the horizontal by gravity and from the vertical by the drive of the sphere by the glass, is oriented in such a way that the bearing forces the sphere to climb on the glass wall. This explains everything else. If the surface is not hard enough (plastic), the tread widens, and as it is along a circle of very small radius around the magnetic axis, the frictional force that drives the sphere is no longer exerted on this one circle, or poorly. If the glass is rolled on a magnetic surface rather than turned on the spot, the effect is more important because the tendency to move the sphere away from the point of maximum attraction is without friction. To verify the principle, I made the following test with a glass plate: on one side a ball magnet, on the other a cardboard and the other ball. The cardboard is translated in relation to the glass plate. The sphere on the cardboard is driven, does not rotate, remains at constant height. The sphere on the glass side is driven by the other one and rotates on an almost horizontal axis. The sphere on the cardboard fixes the magnetic attraction point of the sphere on the glass plate side. The sphere on the glass plate side loses a degree of freedom: attracted by the other one, it can't go up either. Only the tilt of its magnetic axis by gravity makes that its drive along the plate causes its rotation by the friction of its contact point on the glass, which is offset from the axis. I agree with this. I don't think there is any real effect due to the gyromagnetic property here. It's purely mechanical in nature and completely based on the friction force. I don't think you can get more energy out than in.

F6FLT	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #139 on: 2022-08-30, 11:59:52 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	Quote from: broli on 2022-08-30, 09:39:16 I agree with this. I don't think there is any real effect due to the gyromagnetic property here. It's purely mechanical in nature and completely based on the friction force. I think so too. If this is true, this is worrying for the credibility of Nature. Quote I don't think you can get more energy out than in. Very likely. To be sure, we would have to measure the work of the rotational force of the glass against the weight x displacement of the magnet. But as no new physical principle seems to be at work, this is probably superfluous. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

broli	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #140 on: 2022-08-30, 14:30:17 »
Sr. Member Posts: 329	To get back to the original idea of this thread. Here's an interesting thought from what I have learned so far on how the electron spin behaves. When we assume that the electrons do indeed spin at the speed of light which is not that big of a stretch to make. We get an interesting time dilation effect. when PM's are rotated along their magnetization axis. When a regular conductor carrying a current is rotated the field does not change. However in the case of a permanent magnet rotation should increase or decrease the magnetic field depending on direction. Because the speed of light cannot be exceeded. This has some very interesting implications at high angular velocities. You get asymmetries in the amount of work it takes to move charges closer and away from it. ------------------------ Energy from electron spin 2022-08-30_15-28-53.png (58.97 kB, 1300x669 - viewed 339 times.) Energy from electron spin 2022-08-30_15-29-06.png (104.9 kB, 1528x862 - viewed 195 times.)

Smudge	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #141 on: 2022-08-30, 14:55:13 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 1940	@broli Taking your first image I see you have drawn a current loop within a conductor where the conduction electrons move but the positive ions remain stationary. You have imagined the electrons travelling at limiting velocity c. Now consider a changing magnetic field through that loop from something external to the conductor (like a coil wound round the conductor) applying force that tries to accelerate the electrons to even greater velocity but they can't accelerate. That is the scenario I tried to impress on people, the spin of the ferromagnetic electrons (that this model emulates) cannot change. But it is an energy source since the total magnetic field energy has increased by an amount greater than the energy supplied from the coil. And the OU energy is accounted for by the voltage induced into that loop multiplied by the the loop current. Smudge

Grumpy	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #142 on: 2022-08-30, 15:34:39 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Is that a homopolar generator?

broli	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #143 on: 2022-08-30, 15:53:50 »
Sr. Member Posts: 329	Quote from: Smudge on 2022-08-30, 14:55:13 @broli Taking your first image I see you have drawn a current loop within a conductor where the conduction electrons move but the positive ions remain stationary. You have imagined the electrons travelling at limiting velocity c. Now consider a changing magnetic field through that loop from something external to the conductor (like a coil wound round the conductor) applying force that tries to accelerate the electrons to even greater velocity but they can't accelerate. That is the scenario I tried to impress on people, the spin of the ferromagnetic electrons (that this model emulates) cannot change. But it is an energy source since the total magnetic field energy has increased by an amount greater than the energy supplied from the coil. And the OU energy is accounted for by the voltage induced into that loop multiplied by the the loop current. Smudge Yes this was also inspired by your presentation. However I believe any torque you apply on the electron spin will couple back to the bulk material. I can't talk much about energy densities but I'm nearly sure that that the electron spins at the speed of light. After you this is the third time I have come across this notion from independent sources. If that's the case it would mean that high rotational velocities of a disc magnet should increase/decrease its magnetic field.

broli	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #144 on: 2022-08-31, 06:48:20 »
Sr. Member Posts: 329	Quote from: Grumpy on 2022-08-30, 15:34:39 Is that a homopolar generator? The more I think about it the more a homopolar would contradict the conclusion that the electron spins at the speed of light. If this were the case it would mean that a homopolar motor, where the magnet and conductor disc rotate together, would be by default an OU machine since the EMF generated with be in the direction to increase the current flow. But this is not what happens. In reality the back EMF keeps rising linearly. To me this seems to contradict the idea that the electron spin would be spinning at the speed of light. « Last Edit: 2022-08-31, 08:20:59 by broli »

F6FLT	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #145 on: 2022-08-31, 10:32:08 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	I am quite in tune with the idea of a spin at the speed of light. The electron could even be made up of standing wave photons. Being at the speed of light, just like the photon, the electron spin can neither accelerate nor decelerate. The high rotational speeds of a disc magnet should increase/decrease its magnetic field, as it adds or subtracts turns/s to the spins. But the difference cannot be significant: even with thousands of revolutions/s, the rotational speed of a magnet would be totally negligible compared to the angular velocity of a spin considered as a current loop, of the order of 7.77×10²²rad/sec (see https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation.aspx?paperid=97706). In this paper, we also learn that the magnetic field inside the spin would be of the order of 8.3 × 10¹³ T, which makes it completely illusory that an external field of the order of a few T or less has any significant influence on it. I therefore share Broli's view that "any torque you apply on the electron spin will couple back to the bulk material", but that this coupling in the case of a magnet rotation is considerably below any expectation of experimental measurement, by more than tens of orders of magnitude. The idea of playing on macroscopic elements and mechanical parameters to act individually on spin and modify its properties seems to me to be doomed to failure. I see spin as a perfectly stable entity that can only be an intermediate vector to act on something else. Another example of the huge gap between the macroscopic and the microscopic. The acceleration of the electron is a source of electromagnetic radiation. Therefore, if a charged sphere is rotated, it will radiate. And as long as we remain in the qualitative, we can believe it. But when you go to the quantitative, everything collapses. The acceleration of an electron in a field as weak as 1v/m is of the order of 20,000 billion g. Obviously it would reach the speed of light over an infinitely small distance. This is why relativistic corrections must be applied to its mass, which reduces its acceleration. Can we seriously believe that with the centrifugal acceleration of a few g of the charges on a charged sphere, the electrons will radiate like those in an RF current? --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Grumpy	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #146 on: 2022-08-31, 15:17:30 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Do electrons actually "rotate", or is this rotation illusory?

F6FLT	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #147 on: 2022-09-02, 09:16:49 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	Quote from: Grumpy on 2022-08-31, 15:17:30 Do electrons actually "rotate", or is this rotation illusory? This is not illusory but incomplete. One cannot describe the quantum domain with classical notions. The spin is defined in a complex vector space of dimension 2 generated by 2 orthogonal states corresponding to up/down spins. But described in the ordinary real space R³ of dimension 3 with the position variables (x, y, z), the spin 1/2 of the electron is equivalent to say that it takes 2 turns to find the same position again, thus a "rotation" of 4*pi. QM is math. The reality behind, we do not know it. To imagine it from our current experience of every day does not give much. --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

Hakasays	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #148 on: 2022-09-08, 23:18:11 »
Hero Member Posts: 568	Not my forte', but I came across an old Floyd Sweet paper that seems to cover this same topic: ------------------------ Magnetic Resonance by Floyd A. Sweet. PH. D.pdf (244.71 kB - downloaded 174 times.) --------------------------- "An overly-skeptical scientist might hastily conclude by scooping and analyzing a thousand buckets of ocean water that the ocean has no fish in it."

F6FLT	Re: Energy from electron spin « Reply #149 on: 2022-09-09, 09:50:41 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2072	Quote from: Hakasays on 2022-09-08, 23:18:11 Not my forte', but I came across an old Floyd Sweet paper that seems to cover this same topic: Can you specify the elements of this paper and the logic that goes with it, which make you say that it "seems" to cover the same topic? --------------------------- "Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"

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