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OverUnity Research > Motors > Permanent Magnet Motors > Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip?
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Author Topic: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip?  (Read 33063 times)
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img  MileHigh
Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « on: 2010-11-17, 18:26:33 »
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Have a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLek_3Hpwus

Stefan is hosting this clip and the original author has already taken his clip down.

MileHigh
   
img  wings
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #1 on: 2010-11-17, 20:30:42 »
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the magnets works in repulsion mode ... at the end before the stop the speed goes down.
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #2 on: 2010-11-17, 21:38:44 »
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Quote from: wings on 2010-11-17, 20:30:42
the magnets works in repulsion mode ... at the end before the stop the speed goes down.

There isn't anything significant about the magnets possibly working in repulsion mode.

Yes, I see the slow down at the end myself and it doesn't look right.  That would tend to indicate that it's a fake.

I see a "smoking gun" indication that the clip is a fake.  I wonder if anyone else will see it.

There are many ways and components that could go into to faking this clip.  There are also many ways to detect that it's a fake.  Between the two, I could probably list about 10 or more items, but I am curious to see what others have to say.

MileHigh
   
img  Chet K
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #3 on: 2010-11-17, 22:31:45 »
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Here is what Harvey at Energetic thinks,I like the last part!! [his research on this idea].
Quote:

Too bad the battery holders . . . I mean upright supports are not transparent

Sadly, they are large enough to not only house a battery stack but also a motor to drive the axle. All that is needed in that regard is the energy addition necessary to lift the stator magnet out of the conservative loop.

Because the cam would provide a gravity assist in normal conditions, it would have been good to see the device at rest with the cam down. If it truly worked as shown, without any momentum, it would settle calmly to a minimum point of gravitational potential energy balance with the magnetic fields. But if the rotor was driven by a motor, it would not come to rest in this way, but would begin bobbing as it tries to lift the cam against the gravitational minimum and finds its resonant position.

Since these two conditions are avoided (transparent supports, natural state of rest) the video is suspect.

That being said, I have shown with my M.A.P. tests that energy can be extracted from these two conservative fields when they are separated properly into non conservative parts. This device may exhibit such a separation. In my tests, mathematical projections showed there was approximately 10x the energy available for extraction than was required to drive the trigger mechanism. So while the output energy was minuscule, it was cumulative.

Why has Roobert33 removed the video?
YouTube - Roobert33's Channel
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #4 on: 2010-11-17, 22:43:50 »
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Chet:

Harvey's theory about batteries and a motor in the vertical posts is possible but it's not done like that.  That's right out of "Our Man Flint" or a James Bond movie.  That would be way too much work to do.

I seem to recall that he was doing research with magnets where he flips a magnet back and forth on a hinge to keep a magnetic pendulum working or something like that to produce excess energy.  You can always wait soon or real soon for that setup to work.

MileHigh
   
img  iquant
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #5 on: 2010-11-17, 23:09:03 »
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Have this guy Robert33 wire up a 7 watt bulb and submit the whole shabang to ION and claim his prize;)
   
img  ion
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #6 on: 2010-11-18, 01:27:35 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Quote from: iquant on 2010-11-17, 23:09:03
Have this guy Robert33 wire up a 7 watt bulb and submit the whole shabang to ION and claim his prize;)

A seven watt bulb would stop that device in it's tracks pronto. Have you ever tried to hand crank a 7 watt bulb with a very efficient generator.....feel the resistance....Lenz's Law in action.

As for the video, a couple of problems:

 The rotor turns 360 degrees then seems to speedup at top dead center. Considering the top speed, which is rather slow, where did this sudden acceleration come from? It is not being integrated by the motion of the rotor or the rotor would probably have reached a higher top speed.

The video's seem choppy in sections and the background seems to suddenly change hue very slightly. This could be evidence of some video cut and past job.

We don't see under the table where there could be a pulsing coil pushing up on the goalpost.

The central discs supporting the rotor looks rather thick, approximately one inch. These partitions would be  wide enough for a spring escapement operating through a concentric axle arrangement, or batteries and a tiny motor.

I'm sure others see it from different angles..., but in many ways permanent magnets applied in this manner act very much like springs.

It is interesting that a lot of these ideas are not really new and PM machines have been built using springs and weights in the last century and a half. (none worked that I know of)

be nice if it was real.....



---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #7 on: 2010-11-18, 04:02:01 »
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Ion:

All great points.  I will add that the audio is not on the clip, and that is normally a dead giveaway for video editing being done.  You mentioned the background suddenly seems to change hue very slightly, and that could be video editing, or it could be a video compression artifact.  Some video compression algorithms use a "key-frame" every second or half second and that could explain it.  Still on the issue of video, nowadays the quality of the clips on YouTube has greatly increased, but this clip is only fair quality.  That's because the person that made the clip intentionally over-compressed the clip.  An air jet could also have been used to keep the "motor" turning.  Somebody on another forum said that.  There are definite discontinuities in the speed of the rotor, which many people have mentioned, and that's a dead giveaway that this clip was done by splicing video frames together.  This could be confirmed a la Mylow analysis if somebody had the desire.

So operating on the basis that this is nothing more than video frames being spliced together, let's look at the smoking gun.

The time 1:32 - 1:33 is just after the first release and the white cam has nearly made one full revolution.  We know that the rotor is going to slow down and come to a stop after one revolution.  So somewhere at let's say 80% of the first full revolution, he has to do his first video splice to make it appear that the rotor is self-running.

He is very careful to keep the background shadows and lighting as consistent as possible to make the video appear seamless.  He does an excellent job at this but he makes one tiny slip-up around 1:32-1:33.  Look very carefully at the right edge of the green paper background at 1:32 - 1:33.  Just when you know he has to make his first edit, you can see a touch of remaining shadow on the green paper background go *poof* and disappear.  So he just missed getting his body far enough away from the setup so that no shadows would be cast on the green paper background and there is your smoking gun.

The inconsistencies in the RPMs are in fact another smoking gun.  One of the biggest challenges for the author of the clip was to keep the RPMs consistent while mixing video loops and live action together.  He only did a fair job at this even though he had another trick up his sleeve.

The other trick up his sleeve that he probably did is subtle but it helps his subterfuge.  After he does the 360 view of the device, once it is running you only see one side of it.  To make the rotation appear as constant as possible be probably added weight to the opposite side of the rotating drum.  He may have filled it up with plasticine for example.  This would give the drum much more rotational inertia.  At the very end of the clip he had to remove the extra weight so he could stop the drum with his finger and that's why it decelerates noticeably in the last few seconds.

Chet feel free to paste this on the other forums as long as you give me credit!

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-11-18, 15:59:13 by MileHigh »
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #8 on: 2010-11-18, 04:10:16 »
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As a little side note one of the other forum contributors that believes this motor is real said the following:

Quote
ALL of this being said...this setup is fairly useless and delivers VERY low torque. It is going to be limited as to what you can do with it. On top of that it would have to be a certain size and this prohibits application for many compact devices. It's a novelty at best.

This is a big mistake and somewhat ironic.  If this little measly prototype was real and actually worked, it would be a world-changing event that in 10 years would make the Internet revolution look like peanuts.  It would be the beginning of the Age of Aquarius.

MileHigh
   
img  poynt99
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #9 on: 2010-11-18, 04:22:47 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I don't agree at all guys that there is video splicing involved in this one. The video throughout is as smooth as can be.

I believe the rotor is being motor-assisted somehow by a variable-speed motor, most likely by a foot throttle-type control (like a sewing machine), hence the variation in the speed throughout. A motor assist would also explain the lack of audio track.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #10 on: 2010-11-18, 04:44:10 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2010-11-18, 04:22:47
I don't agree at all guys that there is video splicing involved in this one. The video throughout is as smooth as can be.

I believe the rotor is being motor-assisted somehow by a variable-speed motor, most likely by a foot throttle-type control (like a sewing machine), hence the variation in the speed throughout. A motor assist would also explain the lack of audio track.

It looks to me like the speed noticeably changes in chunks of three or four rotations.  I focus on the little jumping magnet on the bottom and "feel the beat."  I get a sense that the changes are abrupt but I can't be 100% sure.

Unfortunately in the video it looks impossible to follow the individual magnets over just a few frames in order to extract the "real time" angular velocity.  It's very possible that this was intentional.  Each frame is too fuzzy to see the individual magnets and this was probably accomplished by using a video camera with a long frame exposure time and really compressing the video itself.

Addendum: If you were a real video/image processing nerd you could probably run the whole video frame by frame through some sort of contrast enhancement/sharpening/thresholding/erosion/dilation type of filter combination to make it possible to track individual magnets.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-11-18, 05:14:15 by MileHigh »
   
img  Farrah Day
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #11 on: 2010-11-18, 09:20:07 »
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It makes me smile (ironically) when I think of the millions of gullible souls out there that will immediately jump on this, believe everything they are seeing and spread the word as gospel without a second thought.

Isn't it amazing then how we here are all immediately sceptical and suspicious?

Well... er... no not really as this would of course be an example of perpeptual motion, one of the holy grails of science. And as MH says, if it can be done, then the scale of this model is nothing compared to the scale of the implications it would represent. 

It's a constantly recurring scenario, the uneducated, naive and gullible fall headlong for this stuff everytime, while the educated amongst us know better. And let's face it our education is not holding us back or getting in the way, as the many lame-brain fantasiers out there would have everyone believe, it is simply keeping us grounded.

If he has done this then he surely knows the implications and I would expect to see him and his gadget on TV news worldwide. However, I for one won't be holding my breath while I'm waiting. I'm not even prepared to give the guy the benefit of the doubt on this one. It's a hoax.

I wonder just how many people out there think that David Copperfield can really make cars and aeroplanes disappear!  It's a very strange world. 
   
img  Chet K
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #12 on: 2010-11-18, 12:56:52 »
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MH
Its almost Christmas! In Freedonia We like "To imagine ",
To get all warm and Fuzzy this time of year ,so much "bad News" out here.
Do you even "like" Santa Claus?

Well the Guys that can [try this] Will!
And I will cheer them on!!
Because Unlike the "Educated" I don't know everything about magnetism and shielding,and gravity
Or even how Tesla made the most non ferrous things become magnetic?

Lots of silly stuff I don't know!
Ignorance is Bliss !!
Chet
   
img  ion
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #13 on: 2010-11-18, 13:22:43 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Excellent job at the detective work guys.

I failed to mention that although this device would never meet the 7 Watt challenge, if it were real, a scaled up version could exceed 7 Watts easily. I think MH alluded to this.

The real question is this: Why does someone do all that work to get their one minute of fame on youtube?

I can only guess that this did not start out as a hoax, but after many unsuccessful attempts to make it work,  the builder decided to have some fun to ease his frustration level.

Is any money being made on this? Someone we all know probably headlines these devices on his website to jog the hit counter a bit, outside of that perhaps later, do it yourself plans will be sold.

From Chet, above post:

Quote
Because Unlike the "Educated" I don't know everything about magnetism and shielding,and gravity

Chet: I have to agree with this: although we know the nuances of the induction laws and can write field equations, can anyone give a satisfactory explanation for what is actually taking place in induction?

To have a name for something does not necessarily imply we know it.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Farrah Day
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #14 on: 2010-11-18, 14:17:40 »
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Quote
The real question is this: Why does someone do all that work to get their one minute of fame on youtube?


Some people thrive on the attention and live for the limelight, it's evident in all walks of life. This guy is no different. And let's face it, we all know that you can fool most of the people most of the time.

Quote
Lots of silly stuff I don't know!
Ignorance is Bliss !!

You said it Chet! I wonder though, have you ever actually considered learning something instead of just copying and pasting and... cheering people on?  Perhaps someone will buy you a science book for Christmas so then you can actively take part in discussions on your own merit - providing of course that you actually read it! Just a thought.  :)
   
img  Chet K
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #15 on: 2010-11-18, 15:01:54 »
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Farrah
Our worlds Mingle here, We have similar Goals!
Please be patient with me?
When I know what I'm talking about Regaurding OU,
You won't be able to shut me up ![you can only pray for the status Quo]

If you Buy me a book for Christmas ,I promise I will read it [If it has lots of big pictures]!

Chet
   
img  Farrah Day
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #16 on: 2010-11-18, 17:23:12 »
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Quote from: ramset on 2010-11-18, 15:01:54
Farrah
Please be patient with me?
When I know what I'm talking about Regaurding OU,
You won't be able to shut me up!

Chet

Heaven help us... we can't shut you up now!  :)
   
img  iquant
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #17 on: 2010-11-19, 00:05:50 »
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Hi All,
I just received this message from Robert:

Roobert33 has sent you a message:
R: Re: robert
To:overunitydotcom

Yes, It was a joke that I should not do! I apologize to you and all your friends who have lost time in commenting on ....
The device had to operate the magnet inside a coil that I had in my shirt. Greeting, Robert
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #18 on: 2010-11-19, 00:13:46 »
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Quote from: iquant on 2010-11-19, 00:05:50
Hi All,
I just received this message from Robert:

Roobert33 has sent you a message:
R: Re: robert
To:overunitydotcom

Yes, It was a joke that I should not do! I apologize to you and all your friends who have lost time in commenting on ....
The device had to operate the magnet inside a coil that I had in my shirt. Greeting, Robert

That's a joke sitting on top of a joke, a double-cross joke.

MileHigh
   
img  iquant
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #19 on: 2010-11-19, 01:04:27 »
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lol...  who knows what is what on the web...
   
img  Chet K
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #20 on: 2010-11-19, 01:10:55 »
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At least he fessed up !

Oh well, back to the Gas!!

Chet
   
img  Farrah Day
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #21 on: 2010-11-19, 08:19:43 »
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To me, the most intriguing thing about all this is this comment from Peter Lindemann on EF.

Quote
Considering the content of the other films in this genre, it looks like this could be real. Very interesting.

Peter

This from someone who has worked and researched the field for many years... or supposedly.  

And worse, I see self-proclaimed spiritual leader, Mystic Murakami is now looking at the double-bluff angle! lol. And these are the so-called intelligent people that others are obliged to look up to! It really does beggar belief.
   
img  Peterae
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #22 on: 2010-11-19, 09:06:56 »

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Buy me some coffee
How do you know he's not faking that it was a fake  ;D coil in his shirt HOW's that work
   
img  Farrah Day
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #23 on: 2010-11-19, 09:15:26 »
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Quote from: Peterae on 2010-11-19, 09:06:56
How do you know he's not faking that it was a fake  ;D coil in his shirt HOW's that work

From his grammar I assume that English is not his first Language, so likely something has been lost in translation.  That said, there are many people on these forums whose first language is English that are barely literate.
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Real or fake permanent magnet motor clip? « Reply #24 on: 2010-11-19, 10:05:24 »
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Quote from: Farrah Day on 2010-11-19, 08:19:43
To me, the most intriguing thing about all this is this comment from Peter Lindemann on EF.

This from someone who has worked and researched the field for many years... or supposedly.  

And worse, I see self-proclaimed spiritual leader, Mystic Murakami is now looking at the double-bluff angle! lol. And these are the so-called intelligent people that others are obliged to look up to! It really does beggar belief.

I think that it's fair to say that Peter is a free energy guru that hasn't produced a single erg of free energy in his 30+ years on the scene.

Ha.... An appropriate analogy just popped into my head.  He is the "Paris Hilton" of free energy, famous for being famous.  At the recent Renaissance November workshop convention, he gave the best speech.  He talked about the mysterious "Lockridge Device," and gave details on how to build one including a parts list.  I will boldly predict that no replicators will be able to produce free energy with this device.

In reading about the workshop there is still a cult of personality about John Bedini for sure.  Most people said he gave two rambling and barely coherent speeches and were still happy, trying to gleam some meaning from the Master's words.

My most cynical comment would be that John and the boys built a new prop, a giant "Windmill" motor that's some sort of a variation on a Bedini motor.  If you look around you can see pics of it.  Many people wrote that at the last minute the Master decided to let people actually approach the device up close and take a few pictures.  The truth of course is that was all staged, and the people were being played like putty.  He wanted some pictures of the Windmill to "leak out," it's good for business.

MileHigh
   
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