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Author Topic: Induction: methods and madness  (Read 19561 times)

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We are all familair with the term "induction" and Faraday's experiments that linked magnetic fields with electric fields.

"Electromagnetic induction is the production of voltage across a conductor moving through a magnetic field."

If we are to find another means of inducing current, one perhaps better than the oens we currently use, then we need to know "why" a moving, or changing magnetic field casues electrons to flow in a conductor.  What is really going on when we move a magnet past a wire?  We all know it works, but "why" does it work?

This is one of the basic questions I asked years ago when I first ventured onto Eskimo.com.  When you ask these basic but difficult to answer questions, do not be surprised at the answers you find.

The other side of this question is: "Why" does electric current produce a magnetic field?


(The answer: "It just does" is no longer satisfactory.)

EDIT:

SM stated toward the end of the UEC video that the TPU utilizes another form of induction, another way to make electrons flow to produce electrical current.

What was he talking about?

« Last Edit: 2010-11-17, 16:22:01 by Grumpy »
   

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( The "reversed form" (negative solution) of Maxwell's Fourth Equation, states that a magnetic field can be produced without current flowing in a wire. — TRC — )

Cross field antenna
   
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The problem we face with normal induction being a retarding effect is Lenz.

Lenz is my favorite as it does appear to have a hole in the law. This is a prime example of the math being correct but the model being incomplete.

CFAs are very real and seem to use this hole but none I've looked into could be considered OU.

Do two simple things to understand this hole.

1. Look at the actual and empiric magnetic polarization of a simple multiturn loop/pancake coil with ONE LAYER of turns. Use as many turns as possible to see the effect best. DON'T assume you know OR assume the book is correct!
2. The rules are a current is induced into that loop when a magnet approaches. This current direction generates a magnetic field opposing the one approaching.

See, for yourself, how this doesn't work unless you have two exactly equal and opposing fields approaching the opposite ends of the coil's central axis. Then think about what happens to these two approaching and opposing fields.

Maybe it would be eaisier to clap your hands with a grape between them?

Currently, we just say induction doesn't work with these angles.
The correct statement is 'Induction always works if you have and understand a completed Lenz law/Faraday Law of Induction'.

If you look at all this and see nothing interesting. I am sorry. Maxwell inversions explain it. Van der Pol, without modern adjustments to insert COE explains it.

It is still induction. It just isn't as 2D as folks think.
   

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How does a "magnetic field", in motion or changing, cause electrons to flow?  The amgnetic field is able to imaprt motion to physical objects (electrons), but only if it is moving or changing.  Yet, when I place a magnet near an iron object, the object is pulled toward the magnet.  If I use a compass, the new vector torward the magnet is held until the magnetic field changes, and it was the movement of the magnet to a location near the compass that caused the compass needle vector to change. 

What aspect of a "magnetic field" allows it to act on objects this way? 

Do opposite poles induce current in opposite directions?
   
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If you try my magnet dropping experiment you may be on your way to a more correct question and then an answer, maybe.

I haven't made it all the way yet.

Quote
Do opposite poles induce current in opposite directions?

I misread or was just in a hurry for work...
Approaching opposing poles induce a radial current.

Yes, of course. Given all other parameters are the same. South or North poles with the same movement relative to the wire induce opposite currents.
« Last Edit: 2010-11-18, 06:21:29 by WaveWatcher »
   

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Unless anyone has anything concrete that proves there can be no other form of induction than what the masses already know, then SM's statement stands as "possibly true" and worthy of further study.
   
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Unless anyone has anything concrete that proves there can be no other form of induction than what the masses already know, then SM's statement stands as "possibly true" and worthy of further study.

I agree and we may need to change the semantics.

A close definition of "induction" is "the act of causing or bringing on or about" which would just about fit any method that causes or brings about current to flow in a closed circuit.

From Wikipedia:
Quote
Faraday found that the electromotive force (EMF) produced around a closed path is proportional to the rate of change of the magnetic flux through any surface bounded by that path.

In practice, this means that an electric current will be induced in any closed circuit when the magnetic flux through a surface bounded by the conductor changes. This applies whether the field itself changes in strength or the conductor is moved through it.

Electromagnetic induction underlies the operation of generators, all electric motors, transformers, induction motors, synchronous motors, solenoids, and most other electrical machines.

The word "induction" has now become so closely associated with the original work by Faraday, I would personally prefer to use a different word. What that word can be is to be determined (TBD). Since "coersion" is already used in standard electromagnetics, I have been using the word "enticement" although there are probably  much better choices.

 Lets see if we can agree on a term that can be used to describe a method that does not employ standard induction practice, (should that method ever be discovered), a "non-inductive" cause of current flow in a closed circuit.


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If we cast aside the conventional explanations of how and why electricity is manifest, we start with a clean slate and then anything is possible becasue we have nothing to say it isn't.

In the later part of Tesla's life, he stated that all the energy in everything is recieved from the environment.  If we take this to meand that aether flows through everything, then we can manipulate the erngy in everything by manipulating the aether flow.  

If electrical current is actually a flow of aether into the conductor, then we can induce electrical current by causing an ether flow into the conductor.  i.e. another form of induction.

This would also imply that a magnetic field is caused by an aether current loop, and that a magnetic field is some sort of ordered aether flow.  Moving a magnet across a wire happens to cause aether to flow into the wire because the magnetic field changed the aether.

============================

"Induce" is a hard word to get around.  It means to lead or move by persuation or influence, to cause, to effect, etc.

Induction by any means is still induction.  We might use the term "convert" and "conversion" which is one of the many synonyms of induce/induction.  We might look at the process as a convertion of the virtual into the physical.

Now that I think about it, Nipher showed photographic plates of the inflow and outflow.
   
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How about "vectorization".

It implies something already existing being given direction and amplitude. The direction is not limited to left, right, up, down, etc.

Then we can move "induction" to a sub category of "vectorization"  ;D
   
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If we cast aside the conventional explanations of how and why electricity is manifest, we start with a clean slate and then anything is possible becasue we have nothing to say it isn't.

In the later part of Tesla's life, he stated that all the energy in everything is recieved from the environment.  If we take this to mean that aether flows through everything, then we can manipulate the energy in everything by manipulating the aether flow.  

If electrical current is actually a flow of aether into the conductor, then we can induce electrical current by causing an ether flow into the conductor.  i.e. another form of induction.

This would also imply that a magnetic field is caused by an aether current loop, and that a magnetic field is some sort of ordered aether flow.  Moving a magnet across a wire happens to cause aether to flow into the wire because the magnetic field changed the aether.

============================

"Induce" is a hard word to get around.  It means to lead or move by persuation or influence, to cause, to effect, etc.

Induction by any means is still induction.  We might use the term "convert" and "conversion" which is one of the many synonyms of induce/induction.  We might look at the process as a conversion of the virtual into the physical.

Now that I think about it, Nipher showed photographic plates of the inflow and outflow.

agreed G, "induce" is a hard word to get around.

I have pondered for a long time ideas similar to what you have stated above.

SM gave us a few clues with his ideas of the squeezing of a hose to move the water, or just lifting it and moving the raised portion to move the water, or both.

Consider that the only known form of DC electromagnetic induction is the Homopolar generator. (Not to be confused with Wimshurst or Van De Graff DC electrostatic machines)

Nearly all methods that utilize changing flux density produce AC output be it a regular waveform or pulse waveform, the net AC is usually zero sum i.e the voltage or current above the zero line is usually equal to that below the zero line.

To put it another way, the secondary of a standard induction transformer can never have a DC component, regardless of the primary waveform. (linear mode, non-saturated)

Faraday showed that the current must always reverse it's direction as the magnetic field enters and exits the wire.

A device that could accelerate electrons in a closed circuit conductor, always in the same direction,  by somehow inputting pulses of energy that accumulate, could have some interesting possibilities and effects.

SM may have done this in some unknown manner. Definitely worthy of study
« Last Edit: 2010-11-19, 12:47:54 by ION »


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A device that could accelerate electrons in a closed circuit conductor, always in the same direction,  by somehow inputting pulses of energy that accumulate, could have some interesting possibilities and effects.

To do this, we need a better understanding of what a magnetic field is and also what a conductor and insulator are.   If a more complete picture can be determined, then we can make a better guess at how to manipulate it. 

Before the turn of the century there were fierce debates about these very things, and I'm not sure that they were ver settled.
   

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If I may interject here,  I agree with you two,  the Idea I have been working on is that by using two phase AC to rotate a magnetic field about a toroidal transformer you get a double action going on.  The AC can induce power just like a transformer and the rotating field can be used to move aether (or magnetic field, I am one of those that believe a magnetic field is composed of aether) around the collector coils which is moving in one direction only.  The collector coils at a 90 degree orientation to the AC coupled coils are effectively decoupled from them and only see the rotating magnetic field, a rotating magnetic field in a conductor should create a DC current that spirals around the outside of the conductor. The two currents (rectified AC and DC) should be able to be combined.  From there I'm not sure where to go but I believe this fits your theories.
« Last Edit: 2010-11-20, 18:26:00 by Room3327 »


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"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
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If I may interject here,  I agree with you two,  the Idea I have been working on is that by using two phase AC to rotate a magnetic field about a toroidal transformer you get a double action going on.  The AC can induce power just like a transformer and the rotating field can be used to move aether around the collector coils as it is moving in one direction only.  The collector coils at a 90 degree orientation to the AC coupled coils are effectively decoupled from them and only see the rotating magnetic field, a rotating magnetic field in a conductor should create a DC current that spirals around the outside of the conductor. The two currents should be able to be combined.  From there I'm not sure where to go but I believe this fits your theories.

One picture and a phase or timing diagram would help clarify your ideas. A lot of us have tried this sort of thing in one way or another. The only way to tell is to try it. We could save you a lot of time by pointing to other attempts at just this kind of thing.

 Perhaps yours is different. That's why some documentation would help clarify what you are proposing.

There is a patent on a transformer that works somewhat on this principle, but AC not DC.

I have built a single turn coil closely surrounded by a number of fine parallel wires, all of this is surrounded with a toroidal winding. X 2

The idea was to create a radial rotating field passing through the fine wires around the innermost conductor via the RMF created by the phase difference of the innermost conductor and the outermost toroidal winding.

Middle picture shows the fine wires being taped around the large central conductor linearly on a specially built fixture.



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ION,
Just check out the Large Signal Reciever thread in my bench, It is what I have been working on. I just didn't want to call it a TPU because there are so many people out there with their versions of the "TPU" I didn't want to distract from what they are doing.  But it is my version of what I think a TPU is possibly built like.

Quote
The idea was to create a radial rotating field passing through the fine wires around the innermost conductor via the RMF created by the phase difference of the innermost conductor and the outermost toroidal winding.


So what happened did you have a RMF did it work?  Nice build by the way.
« Last Edit: 2010-11-19, 17:01:43 by Room3327 »


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
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ION,
Just check out the Large Signal Reciever thread in my bench, It is what I have been working on. I just didn't want to call it a TPU because there are so many people out there with their versions of the "TPU" I didn't want to distract from what they are doing.  But it is my version of what I think a TPU is possibly built like.

Yes, I remember checking out your ideas on your bench. OK, made it to page two where the schematics are.

Quote
So what happened did you have a RMF did it work?  Nice build by way.

I worked with that coil 3 years ago, but nothing anomalous to report.  This project is temporarily shelved until I can wind some impedance matching toroids for the inner and outer loops. The field intensities must be matched in order to vector properly. Anyway it is a handy sturdily built coil assembly suitable for a number of test modes.
« Last Edit: 2010-11-19, 20:37:40 by ION »


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Just a suggestion pertaining to the root of this thread:

To understand more variations of induction try this: Everywhere you use or see used the word "charge" replace it with the word "velocity". Then, angular velocity (Lorentz), attraction, repulsion and 'only changing magnetic fields induce current' make perfect sense.

You may even see the difference between CEMF and Back EMF  ::)

Once you succeed, congratulations! You have removed a non-existing force and unified all pseudo forces into a true force  :o

Must go. The nurse says it is time for my medication  >:(
   

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For those that don't know:

CEMF = The force created that counters the force that created it. As in a generator or inductor.

BEMF = The discharge if energy that accompanies the colapse of a magnetic field in an inductor.

Example:
When an inductor is first turned on it has CEMF developed as the field builds and then when the inductor is switched off the field colapses and causes a flyback pulse or BEMF.
At least this is how I always understood it.


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
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For those that don't know:

CEMF = The force created that counters the force that created it. As in a generator or inductor.

BEMF = The discharge if energy that accompanies the colapse of a magnetic field in an inductor.

Example:
When an inductor is first turned on it has CEMF developed as the field builds and then when the inductor is switched off the field colapses and causes a flyback pulse or BEMF.
At least this is how I always understood it.

 ;D

Don't push your luck. Agreeing with me will bring nothing but trouble.

Common inductor work doesn't require separation. The only time you need to separate the two is when the causing action can be returned to a zero energy state before the reaction force reaches zero.

In any case the same amount of energy is stored and returned.

BTW: I suppose this is where you must use the two-spring analogy. In every common inductor they still act as one.
   
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This is the challenge to all of us:

"how electrons might be "caused" to be accelerated in one direction, in a closed circuit that does not utilize standard inductive techniques"

I could have shortened that and left out a few words but I left them in for a reason.

After giving the subject much thought, I believe  I now see why standard inductive practice must always fail.

To my understanding, standard induction will always cause a "flow" and a "backflow", a push and a pull of the electrons.  No combination of mixing of frequencies on the primary of an inductive "transformer" will create a DC flow on the secondary.

I challenge all to prove this for themselves and take any standard transformer, air core or otherwise, put a low pass filter on the secondary and go ahead and pump the primary with any frequencies or combination thereof. There will never be a DC component on the secondary. (I hope someone out there can prove this statement false) You can use the test circuit below as a starting point.

Many TPU replicators fail because their approach doe not recognize this. It may be elementary, but seems to have been forgotten.

Note: In a series circuit, with an inductor whose core can saturate it is possible to create DC from a sinusoidal waveform by relying on the saturation characteristic to perform the rectification. This is not a transformer circuit and not what is described above.

Now the question is "what rocks should we look under"

There may be a way, using the sharp leading and trailing pulses of a spark gap or other high frequency impulse generator, to cause the sought after effect.

To be continued.

« Last Edit: 2010-11-20, 14:05:29 by ION »


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transformers tend to differentiate

I would have thought by narrow that it is painfully and without a doubt obvious that the TPU, Hendershot Generator, Moray Valve, Ed Grey Tube, and Kapanadze Generator do not work via conventially accepted methods of magnetic induction.

Also, we can mix frequencies and harmonics forever and if we apply the result the wrong way then nothing can come from it.

This is the challenge to all of us:

"how electrons might be "caused" to be accelerated in one direction, in a closed circuit that does not utilize standard inductive techniques"


I have a couple of approaches worthy of bench time - more later

   

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Two avenues of research:

The Roentgen Current, Rowland Effect, and Wilson Effect:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=43.0

Willie Johnson Jr.'s Gyroscopic Force Theory which requires "precession" in order to have "induction".

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=79.msg3015#msg3015

Both discuss production of DC via non-translator "induction".
   
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transformers tend to differentiate

I would have thought by now that it is painfully and without a doubt obvious that the TPU, Hendershot Generator, Moray Valve, Ed Grey Tube, and Kapanadze Generator do not work via conventially accepted methods of magnetic induction.

Also, we can mix frequencies and harmonics forever and if we apply the result the wrong way then nothing can come from it.

I have a couple of approaches worthy of bench time - more later



Bear with me G, it may be obvious to you and I but I thought it necessary to clearly differentiate to anyone just tuning in what rocks we should or should not be looking under.

Your links are very valuable in this regard, and I read them with great interest.

I will be posting a interesting circuit idea only after I have tested it for efficacy. My bench time is limited due to other demands on my time, however, my thought lab I carry with me at all times.


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Willie Johnson Jr.'s Gyroscopic Force Theory which requires "precession" in order to have "induction".

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=79.msg3015#msg3015

(By the way he was an analytical chemist before he up and vanished.  He developed a new type of chemistry too.)

On page three there is the assertion:
Quote
Indeed, the GFT posits that electric induction can occur if and only if electron precession  is executed.
 

This is a bold statement and a very straight forward law of induction.  (If correct.)  "Precession" must occur in order for induction to occur.  He does not say that a magnetic field is required and implies that other forces will also induce current if applied correctly.

=======================================================================

There is a statement and formula on the very last page of this Chapter of the Mr. Johnson's Theory:
 
Quote
For two dimensions, we state that  if a charged particle is simultaneously
subjected to two mutually orthogonal forces then a current , an electric field, and a
magnetic field will be induced, all mutually orthogonal.  This can be expressed
mathematically as
   
FxF = ν [(qr)xBxE)]                        (2)

where ν  is the frequency.  Equation 2 indicates that the presence of any two
orthogonal forces in a rotating system
will evince a current and its accompanying
magnetic and electric field.
  This can be tested experimentally by allowing
Maxwell’s capacitor to precess mechanically or under the influence of gravity.  A
current will be induced in the inflow and outflow wires.

Rotation is the key...and this is also evident in the Rowland Effect, Wilson Effect, and Roentgen Current.

Now, the tough questions emerge:

1. What is rotating in the TPU?

A radial electric field caused by sharp electric impulses to coils.
(I am deliberately leaving the word "aether" out to make this more palatable to people that do not believe in an aether.)

2. What two orthogonal fields are utilized in the TPU to cause electron precession in the collector to induce current?

The radial electric field and a magnetic field.

Wilson Effect is the same but uses a rotating polarized dielectric cylinder.
 
   
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Good work G

The radial electric field could be an electrostatic "bias" applied between the toroidal and poloidal windings. The bias could be discharged through a spark gap or avalanche diode array to create the impulse transient.


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Another possibility is RHC ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_sound )

It is the only method I've located that fits within commonly accepted 'Laws of Physics' (SM stated something about there being nothing magical going on) while using energy acceleration in a pressure wave that can induce current in poloidal windings with resulting sonic harmonics.

(Sonic harmonics in a elliptical path are not integer multiples but 2pi x f. Thus, relating to the diameter)

The sonic harmonics are seen in audio analysis.

The would make a TPU a constant voltage device and makes it more conceivable that drawing more current would simply feed the output function while creating more heat ( RHC via Phonon ). Of course, this means heat is a required part of the overall function.

This concept may require associating a connection similar to 'electric/magnetic' with 'heat motion/magnetic'.
   
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