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Author Topic: Cavitation and Pistol Shrimps and the Witts Inc.  (Read 33928 times)
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Chet:

Quote
No not endorsing at all, If it turns out that this can be done thru cavitation?
I would have to excersise an awful lot of self control,I would really like to go out to Ohio
And put a nice hot OU water heater in a place on SIR TraPP that the sun don't shine!

To many lost lives in this Oil war! [my sons are old enough to get sucked in too]

However Not gonna go there ,
Go over to Overunity And tell me all about the Pistol shrimp,and Thrapp,I won't disscuss this in Farrah's Thread, PERIOD!!!

So here we are.  I need you to help me out first.

What can be done through cavitation?  Witts water heater stuff or electrolysis or what?
What about Ohio and Sir Trapp?  Is that where the Witts compound is?  Is Sir Trapp a Witts character?
What do you want to know about the Pistol shrimp?  I am asking a serious question.  Note I can only give you general responses, I saw the clip several months ago.

Finally, a question about cavitation and electrolysis.  What is the line of thinking here?  I am not reading that thread.

Thanks,

MileHigh
   
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Well
You'll have to bear with me, I'm in the middle of finishing up some work here.
I appreciate you taking the time!

be back shortly,
Chet
   
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Trying to determine if cavitation of an electrolyte (H20/KOH or H20/NaOH) induced by magnetic or ultrasonic resonance in conjunction with electrolysis will generate HHO or ducted H/O more efficiently than by electrolysis alone.
   
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Iquant:

Which resonance are we talking about, magnetic or ultrasonic?  The next question is resonance with what?   If something is resonating, first you have to define what that is.  Also, what is the resonant frequency?

There is a point behind these questions that is really worth considering.  The point is that you can't just use the term "resonance" without giving it some meaning, because it always has meaning.  By the same token, if I assume that someone observed some bubbles in the water, how do you know that's a resonance effect?  What is your rationale for stating that?

I can't presume anything because I am not following the thread so I need your or Chet's help here.  If there were cavitation bubbles, then I would assume that they would appear and disappear instantly.  So they might appear to be a more or less static cloudiness in the water.  If on the other hand some fine bubbles rose to the surface, then they would not be cavitation bubbles.  What was seen to indicate the presence of cavitation bubbles?

Does the experiment show that HHO is being generated more efficiently or does someone just suspect that?  Is there any data?

This may seem like a pain in the ass to raise all of these issues, but they have to be raised.  It's a mistake to make leaps of logic.  I don't want to prejudge anyone here but I am smelling some leaps of logic.

Thanks,

MileHigh
   
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MH
I see iquant covered the "cavitation electrolysis" question

My interest In cavitation stems from the "effect" the Pistol shrimp performs in water!
I believe the 5000 degrees celsius and an event I know NOTHING about called Sonoluminescence[i think thats how its spelled]

Seeing this Bizzare event, performed by a Bug, lead me to believe that this could be the force that we all [us ou types] have been searching for,
just happens in different media ,but basically "Opens a door" where things can possibly be manipulated
into an alternate out come [An OU event}
Cavitating molecules to the point of 5000 C and sonoluminescence takeing place!

Not Prop cavitation Etc..........................

Witts would just be a way In my opinion that if "SonoCavitation"[just made that up] does cause an event
Witts figured a way to "harvest " from the "Event".
If you can show that SonoCavitation is no big deal,
I would be very interested!!

Chet
   
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Chet:

For starters it looks like Wattsup has discounted any cavitation in the electrolysis experiment.  Please read his posting and let me know what you think.

Quote
Seeing this Bizzare event, performed by a Bug, lead me to believe that this could be the force that we all [us ou types] have been searching for,
just happens in different media ,but basically "Opens a door" where things can possibly be manipulated

You are indeed making a leap of logic.  The Pistol shrimp can cock some muscles in it's claw and snap two "teeth" in the claw together with such speed and force that it sends out a sound wave in the water that's at a very high intensity.

The intensity of the sound wave is so high that the instantaneous negative pressure on the water molecules is high enough to rip the water molecules apart and cause cavitation.  The work done to rip the water molecules apart came from the shrimp's muscles.  Then the cumulative water and air pressure responds and  pushes the bubbles down to zero volume and you have a small number of water molecules smashing into each other at high velocity.  So some of that energy gets converted into heat and light.  This is all just a manifestation of the conservation of energy.  A simple analogy is to say that this is just playing with mechanical springs.  There is a relatively simple energy trail to follow to see this.  You are attributing something mystical to something that is ordinary.

The Pistol shrimp generates water cavitation as a side effect to what it's really trying to do.  It's trying to send a sound wave at its prey to stun it so it can catch it and eat it.

You can look at water as a medium for transferring sound energy just like air or steel.  All three have a characteristic impedance that determines the speed that the sound waves will travel.  Water happens to have a property where the equivalent "permeability" (or "permittivity") actually breaks down and fails after the stress gets too high resulting in cavitation.  It has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of potential energy source.

For me, this is an example where as a group you should consider debating the premise before you start debating the potential benefits.  The premise is false.  Look at the classic example of a motor and adding pick-up coils.  How may times have you read someone state that they are going to add more pick-up coils to a Bedini or some other motor in pursuit of over unity?  The premise behind that idea is false, and it is worth debating the premise before you go and add more pick-up coils.

MileHigh

One more comment:  The presence of bubbles appearing in the water could just as easily be due to regular gasses condensing out of the water solution and becoming bubbles, just like when you open a bottle of Coke.  That's a much less energetic process than cavitation.  There are always some air molecules dissolved in the water.  You lower the water pressure and bubbles will appear.
   
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I've not found any cases where cavitation produces more gas...

Resonance is probably the wrong term...  one that I added in the brief one line reply.   

The examples I'm looking at are using ultrasonic agitation inducing cavitation.
Mookie and FarrahDay are looking at a magnetic implementation which they suspect induces cavitation effect.

www.hielscher.com manufacture industrial ultrasonic equipment.
http://www.hielscher.com/ultrasonics/cavitat.htm is worth a quick read

A few of their videos are listed below.
Ultrasonic Cavitation in Water: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkYtVjJGNRs
Ultrasonic Cavitation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oNZcLyCR_Q

Another interesting video:
I don't follow the science but the claim is being able to produce a flame and burn water purely by ultrasonic oscillations...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4nSIOdKyKA
(The Video description contains their scientific claims and theories)

This guy used a ultrasonic pond fogger in an HHO setup measuring the gas production.
http://www.youtube.com/user/m3sca1#p/u/50/Hxtug3pIHlc

His results were no increase in gas... however, he stated he had no way to tune his pond fogger.
There is a good chance no cavitation was actually occurring in his experiment.
This is where tuning /  resonance came to my mind.

A good experiment would be to replicate this experiment with Hielscher equipment.
   
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Iquant:

Interesting links.  I am going to briefly comment on some of them but please realize that I am skipping some stuff, I'm not directly involved here.

I noticed the ultrasonic cavitation produced a milky smoke just like I expected.  It must take a lot of electrical -> mechanical power to do that.

I didn't read the tech stuff behind the short clip where the guy is claiming to "burn water."  It's a nonsense clip, the flame is turning from blue to yellow because it is getting cooler - from the water.  Water is already "burnt," it's the burnt "ash" of hydrogen.  So it's nonsense and I didn't bother to read the tech explanation.

With respect to ultrasonics and cavitation and increased HHO production:  Ultrasonics and cavitation are mechanical processes.  We know that generating HHO is an electrical process that operates on the molecular level.  It takes energy to rip apart water molecules and it is all based on the flow of electrical current.

So somebody tell me why they think that mechanically shaking water up will generate more HHO  (2H2+O2) when it is an electrical process that rips the water molecules apart?  Even if you are inducing cavitation at a very high frequency as far as a single water molecule is concerned I doubt it would make any difference.  A water molecule is so tiny that the vibrations may as well be like how we as humans perceive the "motion" of the ocean tides.  Can anybody offer up a possible explanation or theory behind the cavitation-electrolysis connection?  Perhaps a link?  Who is the link from and what does a neutral Google search say about this person or organization?

Alternatively, if there are no theories, is there any solid empirical evidence of this?  Has it been replicated?  What about the credibility of the people or organizations claiming the empirical evidence?

Anyway, this is all fodder for Farah's thread, it's not for here.  However, my message is the same.  The "resonance" concept seems to have fallen flat unless someone can give some details.  So I am questioning the new premise, that mechanical cavitation/vibration can somehow improve the electrical decomposition of water into Oxygen and Hydrogen.  From what I can see, and I am certainly no expert, I can't envision how mechanically shaking up water could possibly make a difference to the molecular-scale electrical separation of water.

MileHigh
   
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A final thought about the Pistol shrimp clip.  If I recall in the clip the trail of bubbles produced lasts a second or two.  That would mean that the air bubbles are simply the condensation of the air dissolved into the water back into tiny bubbles.  Then the tiny bubbles take a second or two to dissolve back into the water and disappear.

If true cavitation was taking place I believe the air bubbles should disappear in a fraction of a  fraction of a second.

I can't remember if there was any sono-luminisence taking place in the clip.  If there was that would indicate true cavitation.  Perhaps then both processes were taking place at the same time.

For Chet:  Heat is just molecules in motion, and light happens when you have lots of heat.  What you are not asking is how much heat and how long that heat is present.  Just quoting the temperature means nothing without quoting the other variables.

MileHigh
   
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Well if you go through the train wreck of intertwined and related threads filtering all of the mud slinging there may be a few topics of interest.

What tripped my trigger was the Magnetolysis thread: super saturated NaOH magnetically induced to generate hydrogen.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9448.msg263524

The thread evolved and branched into a few tangents:
Mookie's Electrolysis Accelerator was the start of Farrah's thread here bringing about the cavitation theories.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6637-electrolysis-accelerator.html

Mookie has dropped out of the dialog... Farrah took the bull by the horns.

This is Mookies original video and explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKqs5z2DrCk  
Electrolysis acceleration created by resonating electrodes producing electron avalanche.

I would say we are in the mad scientist phase...
Setting up baseline experiments to test and replicate.






   
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Quote:
I would say we are in the mad scientist phase...
Setting up baseline experiments to test and replicate.
---------------------------------------
Sounds good!!

MH
5000 degrees celsius from a clam clap in the water [claw]! [and MH yawns]
I don't think sonoluminescence would be described well as just a result of Heat!

AnyHoooooo
Thanks for tryin ,I ain't buyin!
There's potential here ,something very special is happening ,something that I believe we will investigate.


Time will tell ............................
Thanks
Chet
   
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Iquant:

I looked at the original Mookie video.  For starters, what I was thinking that "electrolysis acceleration" meant was more HHO gas for your electrical buck.  With that in mind, I will give you my take from watching the video.

I mentioned the abuse of the term "resonance" and we saw it in this clip.  He is aiming an electromagnet at the electrolysis jar that creates a magnetic field at a fixed frequency of 60 Hz.  This is making the plates shake.  It gets noisy when he cranks up the juice.  So he is driving the plates into vibration from an outside source.  Nothing at all is resonating, but the plates are being induced to vibrate at 60 Hz.

So the vibrating plates agitate the water.  This accelerates the production of HHO because there is always "fresh water" available next to the plates for the reaction.  Here is the key point:  The computer power supply has to supply more power to support the increased gas production rate.  If you monitored the current going into the plates I believe that you would see this.  Unfortunately he was not monitoring the plate current.  So no extra HHO production for your electrical energy buck.  The process is not more efficient, it just runs faster.  If you guys were using the term "more efficient" you were way off in the sense that you were using the wrong terminology.

"Electron avalanche" is a term normally associated with semiconductor technology.  I have no idea why Mookie stated this but I think that he was just dreaming.  Did anyone ask him to state what he really meant here?

Chet:

When you see metal scrape against asphalt, say from a moving car, and you see sparks.  What do you think the temperature of the center of the spark is?  I don't have the answer but it could be several thousand degrees.

The 5000 degrees Celsius from the clam clap is infinitesimally small in size.  It might only be a few tens of microns in diameter and it might only last for a few microseconds.  You didn't try so I spelled it out in more detail for you so you might buy.  It's the manifestation of the conservation of energy, and nothing more than that.  Light in this case is just a result of the heat, it's as simple as that.

MileHigh
   
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Milehigh,

Looks like your up to speed...

Below is a link to Farrah's take on her current state of affairs...  appears we are all on the same page:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=406.0

   

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MH,

Chet and the Gang are referring to the "cavitation" diatribes that "The Buzz" started on OU.com a couple of years ago.  He still pops in to offer that challenge that ALL OU devices utilize cavitation to release extra energy and that no one can prove him wrong.    He adds that if you show him a valid OU device, he can show you where the cavitation occurs.

It gets quite interesting actually as Buzz is quite knowledgeable about all of these devices and about cavitation.  The premise is that the mass of the device or some portion of it is converted into energy by this cavitation.  All this would be laughable, but if you impact excite a very long coil something happens that appears to be a very brief change in mass - like it all bulged.   There is the subsequent "ringing" that is more from the space around the coil than the coil itself.  Makes you wonder...

Text on spark gap transmitters will tell you that an impact excited coil rings and that this is not OU.  However, the energy in the ringing is more than the energy in the initial impact pulse.  How do you differentiate between space ringing and the coil ringing?  Moving aether is relative.  It is the same as if you moved the coil.

Now, suppose you make this coil a toroid, and impulse excite it.  If you timed pulses at a particular interval, the first pulse in the coil will meet the last pulse.  Will it ring or will it increase the energy in the space around the coil? No textbooks allowed.  This is a bench test.  HV pulses of say 1kv and a few ns in width.  Freq will be a function of coil length and diameter, as well as other parameters.

I'll throw a few more bones on the plate.  An impulse creates a radial electric field, and the aether will move perpendicular to this radial electric field.  Our REF is moving so the aether is moving with it.  Moving aether can induce a conduction current.  
   
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Grumpy:

I once read someone post that every musical instrument that makes use of resonance is an over unity device.  The society is not healthy without the fringe.

Quote
if you impact excite a very long coil something happens that appears to be a very brief change in mass - like it all bulged.   There is the subsequent "ringing" that is more from the space around the coil than the coil itself.  Makes you wonder...

I assume you mean an inductor here?

Quote
However, the energy in the ringing is more than the energy in the initial impact pulse.  How do you differentiate between space ringing and the coil ringing?

Why are you saying there is more energy in the ringing?  We are never going to agree on the aether stuff and the "space ringing."  I could give you the "textbook" explanation for a coil in self-resonance and you won't consider it the next time a similar issue comes up.  And no, I still haven't read the documents that you so kindly uploaded.  Sorry.

Quote
Now, suppose you make this coil a toroid, and impulse excite it.  If you timed pulses at a particular interval, the first pulse in the coil will meet the last pulse.  Will it ring or will it increase the energy in the space around the coil?  No textbooks allowed.  This is a bench test.  HV pulses of say 1kv and a few ns in width.  Freq will be a function of coil length and diameter, as well as other parameters.

I'll throw a few more bones on the plate.  An impulse creates a radial electric field, and the aether will move perpendicular to this radial electric field.  Our REF is moving so the aether is moving with it.  Moving aether can induce a conduction current. 

No bench here so my comments will be limited.  I'd like to see some reports or clips if anybody ever does this.  Since you talk about the aether all the time, are you tempted yourself?

The following comment is not directly related to this discussion.  About a year ago there was a clip that was done with a LASER and a rotating optical setup that supposedly showed a changing interference pattern "proving" the existence of the aether.   This was supposed to be a modern version of the Michelson–Morley experiment.  I think the guy was from a German technical institute.  That clip was absolutely awful, so bad and I won't mention what was wrong with it.  It was very depressing.

MileHigh
   
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MH,

A side note to your side note:

My understanding of the variation of the MM experiment and experimenter was he wasn't out to prove anything about the ether and wasn't of any particular institute. He was an out of work engineer with possible terminal heath problems and too much time on his hands. The results were shocking to him so he shared them.
The public did such a good job of complaining about deflection and gravity he changed the configuration so deflection couldn't be more than a few microns. The results were the same. This is when the German academia in "the major physics institute" (so I was told but never which one)  replicated the experiments receiving the same results even though it was performed in a climate controlled room with the proper equipment. There was talk about more results found. The only extra I heard was varying results, even on a fixed base, based upon the time of day.

The last I heard was the experimenter's health had failed him and his experiment continues on more than one campus.

All the talk about gravity deflection, distorting mirrors, etc. were good guesses. I shared my results with a mutual contact in Germany just before I lost contact with him. I didn't use a tripod with wooden arms. I used a horizontal precision lathe and fixture built for turning laser alignment equipment.

Too bad he was so upset about being slammed for just sharing results. I doubt he would have held back on other results before the academics seized control.
   
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Yes Grumpy you are correct
The Buzz !!
Cool guy [very]!

Others are exploring cavitation
in order to keep Farrahs thread clean, I am posting this contribution from iquant here.

Have a look at the following paper when you get some time.
Ultrasonically-excited electrolysis Experiments at Energetics
Technologies:  
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/DardikIultrasonic.pdf

Experimental results and discussion of 3 electrolysis cells with built in ultrasonic transmitters to induce cavitation in the electrolyte.
A significant amount of excess heat was generated and a very large COP was obtained in several experiments.
Largest excess power: 34 watts
Largest excess energy: 3.5MJ
Largest COP: 3000%
Longest duration of excess heat in a single experiment: 40 days

Chet
PS I heard something about a 7 watt challenge??
Hows 34 watts grab ya!!
cop 3000 % some fudge room in there??

   
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It's turtles all the way down
Quote
Chet
PS I heard something about a 7 watt challenge??
Hows 34 watts grab ya!!
cop 3000 % some fudge room in there??

Where's the beef? Let's see a standalone unit that can power a 7 Watt bulb indefinitely. Those luxurious prizes are still "up for grabs" LOL

By the way, all this cavitation stuff is rather old hat, and was the plot of a 1996 movie called "Chain Reaction" starring Keanu Reeves,  Morgan Freeman and Rachel Weisz. In this 106 minute movie, Keanu discovers that the squeal of his lathe cutting some metal induces cavitation and a fusion reaction in a vessel of heavy water.

He then goes on to find the "magic frequencies" using his keyboard synth.

Of course, the oil boys hearing of this destroy the lab forcing Keanu and his fellow scientist Rachel Weisz to go  on the run.

I spoke to Eugene Mallove when the movie came out, before his untimely and mysterious death. He was editor of Infinite Energy Magazine, and was a consultant to the technical details of the movie.

I was a regular subscriber to the New Hampshire publication. It dealt with many of the fusion experiments going on worldwide, mostly by independent researchers.

If you haven't seen it, check it out, definitely a fun movie for FE researchers.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

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I have the movie "Chain Reaction" and watched it again last week.  Pretty good as far as movies go.  The depiction of entities that wish to have control of the populous was correct, even if exagerated for a movie.  They can only hold you back if you allow them to.

With the above post, I wanted to point out that the fields, be them electric, magnetic, or something else, are in the space around the coil.  Empty space has the properties of permeability and permittivity, but we say there is "nothing there".  Then why does it have these properties?  If empty space is indeed a medium, who is to say that it can not be cavitated?
   
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MH I'm having a hard time getting "The Effect" with your muffler draggin on ashphalt technique,
Think I almost had it once?[back in 73?]
These guys are having the same problem

Quote:
At present there is much interest in this field due to recent, highly controversial claims from Taleyarkhan et al (2002), that they induced nuclear fusion in a sonoluminescing bubble. Attempts to reproduce his results failed but the search goes on...

http://physics.open.ac.uk/~swebb/briefguide.htm [from Wilby][aka W]
Chet
PS
Wilby says
You need to stop watching you tube movies and "Study"!!
PPS
READ THE LINK!!
   
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Chet:

I followed the trail for Energetics Technologies for the fun of it.  Last month they moved to the US.  Perhaps that explains why their web site is down.  Nonetheless, not having a web site in this day and age doesn't look good.

They are claiming excess heat through a cold fusion process.  I'd say give them another five years and if nothing happens by then, forget it, it was never real.

It's worth it to read some of the comments here:

http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/04/energetics-technologies-and-other-new.html

Probably my most important advice is to do the Google "fraud" search, I do it all the time.  Search on "Energetics Technologies fraud" and see what comes up.  You will find a link that digs deeper into the famous CBS Sixty Minutes report.

The bottom line is that that right now there is nothing.  They cannot pass Ion's "7 watt" test at all.  An impressive looking white paper .pdf file with some good looking numbers just doesn't cut it.

On a somewhat amusing note, I found a totally fake "energy research" company's web site when I was poking around looking for info on Energetics Technologies.   Here is their mission statement, "Improve electricity generation, transportation efficiency and related applications by innovating fundamental improvements in the use and sources of energy."  Sure baby, you love energy long time.

The company has no products, no nothing.  Just a fake web site for a fake company looking for some suckers.

http://www.energeticstech.com/index.htm

Shifting gears over to the Pistol shrimp.  From the Wilby link:

Quote
There have been many proposed explanations of this phenomena here I will only briefly discuss some of them;

    * Hot spot model : this was first proposed by Putterman and the light production methods were first discussed but Roberts and Wu all of UCLA. In this model a spherical shockwave towards the centre develops that further focuses the energy. The centre of the bubble is extra heated by this shock wave hence "the hot spot". This shockwave rebounds from the centre causing further additional heating of the hot spot and it is proposed that at this point there is light emission from the plasma generated at the centre. Maximum temperatures of 10^8 K have been obtained in models of this theory.

So that's basically what I said.

However, you must not miss the fundamental point:  Energy supplied by the shrimp produces a powerful sound wave in the water that may produce some cavitation.  Some of the cavitation may produce sonoluminescence.  There is no source of energy here at all.  Instead, you are looking at how the energy supplied by the shrimp dissipates.  You must absorb this fact and not create false garden paths for yourself and others that lead nowhere.  It's like watching fireworks and looking at individual sparks in the explosions and speculating if they might be a source of energy.  It makes no sense at all.

MileHigh
   
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Not sure about the legitimacy of the company, its claims or Dr. Irving Dardik

http://www.dardik-institute.org/home.asp
See Bio, Superwave theories, publications

Inside Of Energetics Technologies - Israel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3w9IP1DqLc

http://www.youtube.com/user/EnergeticsTech
is their youtube channel

SuperWave™ Fusion "excess heat" process visualization:
http://www.youtube.com/user/EnergeticsTech#p/u/3/fQ2M_SE67RM

Appears he has gone from respected surgeon to an outcast among his peers.
Check the above out, read between the lines and draw your conclusions.
   
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MH
Quote:
It makes no sense at all.
-------------
No , so far you're explanation is as good as the other "theories" in the above link!

So far!!

However, For guys chasing "sparkly lights" there sure is a hell of a lot of research going on with this?

Perhaps some are trying to advance the understanding beyond the interface between the Ashphalt and the muffler theory{;never picked up any "radiation anomoly" with that one}

Chet
   

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If additional energy is somehow derived from the medium, such as water, then conservation of energy still holds, as I have extracted teh energy from another source.  If my cavitation splits an atom, the extra energy comes from the atom and not the enrgy that I have supplied to achieve the cavitation.
   

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an interesting report:

http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/library/2005/2005VysotskiiV-ObservationAndInvestigation.pdf

Quote
Initial calorimetric tests have shown that the final (output) thermal energy of hot circulating machine oil in some cases exceeds the input electrical energy used for liquid pumping.

These results, including studies of nuclear transmutation and energy release, will be reported in the near future following additional research.
   
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