PopularFX
Home Help Search Login Register
Welcome,Guest. Please login or register.
OverUnity Research > Benches > Smudge (Moderator: Smudge) > Current through Iron
2024-11-26, 18:40:38
News: A feature is available which provides a place all members can chat, either publicly or privately.
There is also a "Shout" feature on each page. Only available to members.

Pages: [1]
Author Topic: Current through Iron  (Read 2864 times)
Topic Options img
img  Smudge
Current through Iron « on: 2021-05-04, 15:22:33 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1940
Reiyuki has opened a debate about ferromagnetic wire here https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4110.0 and that inevitably means passing current along the wire.  I opened another debate here https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3377.0 for iron rods and another here https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3844.0 again for iron rods.  I think the subject of the inner workings of ferromagnetic materials and in particular iron is worth more work so I have opened this as a general topic.  I found some papers I wrote  about 14 years ago but probably never published so I am putting them here to start the debate.  The first paper is something I feel strongly about, and that is the physics that comes from use of magnetization M that has dimensions of dipole-moment per unit volume.  That gives a completely erroneous view of the magnetic fields within ferromagnetic material.  The second paper looks at obtaining uniform field along the rod that is a prerequisite for using Larmor precessions of the atomic dipoles for anomalous effects.

Smudge
   
img  Smudge
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #1 on: 2021-05-05, 15:11:33 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1940
In this paper I propose an iron rod experimental procedure that could lead to something useful.  Any takers?

Smudge
   
img  Chet K
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #2 on: 2021-05-05, 17:01:06 »
Group: Ambassador
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4045
I will also reach out for other builder/experimenters who are unaware of forum reboot here.( as well a more serious change in other open source forums...in this hunt for a true anamoly

And mirror your experiment elsewhere !

https://overunity.com/18858/smudges-musings-on-current-through-iron/msg557370/#msg557370

With respect and gratitude

Chet K
Ps
Smudge, you are a moderator in above “Smudges-musings “section
Please feel free to change “whatever”? There if deemed necessary



« Last Edit: 2021-05-05, 23:22:46 by Chet K »
   
img  gyula
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #3 on: 2021-05-05, 21:25:37 »
Group: Tech Wizard
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1194

This paper from 1936 deals with     The electrical properties of high permeability wires carrying alternating current :

   https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspa.1936.0208

Smudge, if this is off topic, then I delete this post, ok?

Gyula
   
img  F6FLT
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #4 on: 2021-05-06, 10:05:49 »
Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2072
Hi Guyla,

interesting paper. The important variations of resistance with frequency and especially with an external and not very strong longitudinal field, are quite surprising.
The skin effect tends to maintain the current at the periphery, but I don't see how the external field can act.
The authors say that the effects depend a lot on the wires used, even if they are from the same batch, so there is surely something to experiment with.

I've removed the "Download from..." mentions that were hindering readability, and I've put the cleaned up version on my catch-all site here.


---------------------------
"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
img  F6FLT
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #5 on: 2021-05-07, 11:02:58 »
Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2072
Hi smudge,

Thanks to your documentary work on Chava, Coler's machine is the only one that I keep from the past, which could indeed be the demonstration of a new phenomenon.

However there is still the problem of the origin of the energy. To say that it comes from the ZPE, from nuclear effects, or why not from a Maxwell demon or other exotic sources is what one says when one has in fact no idea of the real mechanism at work, nor of the cause and effect relationships between the exotic source and the production of electrical energy.

The study of currents inside ferromagnetic conductors is surely one of the best ways to try to understand what could have happened and how it could lead to self-oscillations or DC (which can be rectified self-oscillations). The first thing to do is imho to test the reality of an abnormal elementary effect by an experiment. I'm pondering on the subject but not making much progress...   ???


---------------------------
"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
img  Smudge
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #6 on: 2021-05-08, 18:12:53 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1940
Quote from: F6FLT on 2021-05-07, 11:02:58
Hi smudge,

Thanks to your documentary work on Chava, Coler's machine is the only one that I keep from the past, which could indeed be the demonstration of a new phenomenon.

However there is still the problem of the origin of the energy. To say that it comes from the ZPE, from nuclear effects, or why not from a Maxwell demon or other exotic sources is what one says when one has in fact no idea of the real mechanism at work, nor of the cause and effect relationships between the exotic source and the production of electrical energy.

The study of currents inside ferromagnetic conductors is surely one of the best ways to try to understand what could have happened and how it could lead to self-oscillations or DC (which can be rectified self-oscillations). The first thing to do is imho to test the reality of an abnormal elementary effect by an experiment. I'm pondering on the subject but not making much progress...   ???
I still have all the photo images of the files held in the UK National Archives.  I think there are some leads that have not been followed up, e.g. what is held in the Norwegian Archives?  And when the UK research establishment at Christchurch (where Coler did his work) was closed down all the archives went to another establishment and could still be there untouched all these years.  AFAIK these have never been searched for Coler related stuff.  As I am getting on in years I do wonder what will happen to my stuff when I die.
Smudge
   
img  Chet K
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #7 on: 2021-05-09, 03:31:12 »
Group: Ambassador
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4045
Cyril
I have often pondered how to save your research, was one reason for asking Stefan to start a section over there
Which you can moderate and organize , I still feel that is a good start !

Different sections in your board there, for specific areas of research?

Regardless , I hope you have the next 50 years to get it done !!

And the best would be that true anomaly which can withstand rigorous scrutiny!!

Thx for all you do
You truly inspire

Respectfully
Chet K
Ps
We should look into the Coler research
“Must “ I should say !

We ( open source community) have friends in Christ Church NZ
   
img  F6FLT
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #8 on: 2021-05-10, 09:06:43 »
Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2072
I wonder if we could find some ideas about Coler's machine from Illya Prigogine, and the thermodynamic systems far from equilibrium:
"The paths of nature cannot be predicted with certainty, the accidental part is irreducible: the bifurcating nature is the one where small differences, insignificant fluctuations, can, if they occur in opportune circumstances, invade the whole system, generate a new regime of functioning"
Ilya Prigogine, Nobel laureate


---------------------------
"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
img  F6FLT
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #9 on: 2021-05-10, 09:11:15 »
Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2072
Quote from: Smudge on 2021-05-08, 18:12:53
I think there are some leads that have not been followed up, e.g. what is held in the Norwegian Archives?...
Smudge
Are there any Norwegians here who could investigate?



---------------------------
"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
img  Smudge
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #10 on: 2021-05-11, 09:32:16 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1940
This came up on another thread
https://www.plasma-universe.com/plasma/
and the image below is taken from that link.  If you consider the inter-atomic space as a plasma where conduction electrons will tend to follow those spiral paths, and there is some phase coherence between the cyclotron frequency governing those spirals and the ESR of the electrons orbiting the nuclei then you can get a pumping action in the electron current direction along the "magnetic rope" (along the conductor).

Smudge
   
img  Alvaro CS
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #11 on: 2021-05-11, 12:17:00 »
Newbie
*

Posts: 6
Quote from: Smudge on 2021-05-11, 09:32:16
This came up on another thread
https://www.plasma-universe.com/plasma/
and the image below is taken from that link.  If you consider the inter-atomic space as a plasma where conduction electrons will tend to follow those spiral paths, and there is some phase coherence between the cyclotron frequency governing those spirals and the ESR of the electrons orbiting the nuclei then you can get a pumping action in the electron current direction along the "magnetic rope" (along the conductor).

Smudge
Hello Smudge
Would you be kind to extend in that "some phase coherence" ?
much appreciated

regards
Avaro
   
img  Smudge
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #12 on: 2021-05-11, 16:09:17 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1940
Quote from: Alvaro CS on 2021-05-11, 12:17:00
Hello Smudge
Would you be kind to extend in that "some phase coherence" ?
much appreciated
The pumping action is from the Larmor precessions, the axis of the atomic electron orbits align with a longitudinal magnetic field along the conductor but then precess about that field at the Larmor frequency.  That creates at each atom a transverse field component rotating about the conductor axis.  That field can pump a conduction electron near the atom in either direction.  The electron movements away from the atom spiral at the cyclotron frequency and I think it is possible that when the electron gets near another atom it can get another pump boost in the same direction if the phase of the precession there with respect to the electron position is favorable.  That requires some phase coherence for the precessions of the individual atoms allied to the spatial movement of the electron.  If you look at the formula for electron spin resonance (ESR) and cyclotron frequency you find they are the same, so there is automatically some coherence there.  We need an external RF field transverse to the conductor to cohere the ESR precessions.  In the Coler device there is DC current in coils wound onto the Fe rods to give that longitudinal field, and the rods are situated within the large flat rectangular spiral coils that, along with the interleaved capacitor plates, form the RF tank circuit.

Smudge 
   
img  MasterBlaster
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #13 on: 2021-05-12, 09:14:48 »
Jr. Member
**

Posts: 77

Hello Smudge

In your opinion would it be safe to say that the B field in a torroid is uniformly distributed?
   
img  Smudge
Re: Current through Iron « Reply #14 on: 2021-05-12, 16:02:10 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1940
Quote from: MasterBlaster on 2021-05-12, 09:14:48
Hello Smudge

In your opinion would it be safe to say that the B field in a torroid is uniformly distributed?

It depends upon the degree of uniformity you want.  If the core cross section area is small enough (i.e. the ring core has an inner diameter that is only slightly smaller than the outer diameter) and you have a uniform winding of many turns of fine wire then the field is close to being uniform.  You can get some idea of the uniformity by realizing that the H lines form circles about the hole axis, and each H line obeys its closed line integral (H times the circle circumference) is equal to the fixed ampere turns.  So the H circles with the smallest diameter have the greatest H value, and then that applies to the B field as well.

Smudge
   
Pages: [1]
« previous next »


 

Home Help Search Login Register
Theme © PopularFX | Based on PFX Ideas! | Scripts from iScript4u 2024-11-26, 18:40:38