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OverUnity Research > Benches > Smudge (Moderator: Smudge) > Smudge's Halbach Motor
2024-11-26, 18:23:45
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Smudge's Halbach Motor « on: 2020-11-08, 16:21:26 »

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Here is a paper that I have just compiled dealing with a modified Halbach array that offers the potential for a free-running magnet motor.  My simulations in FEMM for a pair of linear arrays show that a linear motor utilizing permanent magnets could work.  The question now is would a pair of circular arrays also offer this possibility for a rotary version.  I do not have the capability of building such a device so I offer it to anyone out there to give it a try.  The advantage over other motors that have evolved by trail and error experimentation is that its working principle is clear, hence it is more likely to be accepted by the scientific establishment.  And finessing the design for best performance is a doddle.

Smudge
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #1 on: 2020-11-09, 01:50:10 »

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Hi Cyril,
Thanks for sharing. It would not be too difficult to setup a 3d printed rig for this as I have done for my Howard Johnson array. I have not been able to get a circular array working though as the rotor is fairly tricky as it is a banana shaped magnet. I think I can build this with my 3mm cubes though.
Thanks again.
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #2 on: 2020-11-09, 10:46:13 »

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Thank you Jim for your interest.  3mm cubes are tiny, so I would be inclined to use more than the 16 as in my circular array.  I did try simulating a single circular array with the working side facing inwards, but that did not show the same effect as a linear array.  In that arrangement the change from linear to circular took away the wanted effect.  However I am still looking into this simpler arrangement to see whether I can get it to work,

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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #3 on: 2020-11-09, 15:05:52 »
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Smudge:  "hence it is more likely to be accepted by the scientific establishment. "

   If the device is 100% replicable, I wouldn't worry about acceptance by the scientific establishment!  or the MSMedia.   

Go direct to the people, and make it broadly available (IMHO):  a small replicable device will sell and spread like hotcakes, IMHO.

The "proof" will be in everyone's hands who holds the device - can't beat that for credibility!
« Last Edit: 2020-11-11, 21:12:36 by PhysicsProf »
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #4 on: 2020-11-09, 16:42:42 »
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Thanks Cyril,

In your alternate linear version of the Halbach array your FEMM results were improved by using a permeable material such as Fe in
place of certain magnets. Could you do the same for the circular array using square magnets and wedge shaped transitions between either a few of the PMs or all?

There's also the option of 'squaring the circle' by using a polygon of linear segments, but it might add complexity to the radial magnet, or not.

tak 
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #5 on: 2020-11-13, 16:43:40 »

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Quote from: tak22 on 2020-11-09, 16:42:42
Thanks Cyril,

In your alternate linear version of the Halbach array your FEMM results were improved by using a permeable material such as Fe in
place of certain magnets. Could you do the same for the circular array using square magnets and wedge shaped transitions between either a few of the PMs or all?

I have tried various versions with Fe with varying degrees of success.  The rotary version definitely works but I don't get the sort of gain you get with a long array, I am only using 16 magnets in the circle.  And, unlike the long array where the force can be made to always be positive, in this rotary version there is always negative torque regions that of course can be smoothed out, the overall torque is positive so it will definitely work.  The more I study this the clearer things are becoming.  I can do things in FEMM that would be impossible in practice, like replace the magnets with air cored solenoids carrying huge currents.  When you do that the energy extracted by the movement has to come from the current sources.  I can use FEMM to tell me the fluxes within each solenoid during the rotor movement and from that I can obtain the energy taken from or fed back to the current sources.  That tells me the energy taken from or fed back to the atomic dipoles within the magnets, so this should enable me to understand where the energy comes from.  It should also allow me to optimise the design.  I have always known that within magnet motors there is this complex exchange of energy with the internal dipoles, but have never before been able to exploit this feature to any advantage.  Hopefully this gives us a way to move ahead in the search for so called free energy.  More to come when I write it all up.

Smudge
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #6 on: 2020-11-13, 21:14:22 »

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My build just got prioritized as I came off a quad bike yesterday:) plenty of 3D design time now. The differences you outline between linear and a circular track is exactly what I see in my hojo motor as well. Looking forward to this.
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #7 on: 2020-11-15, 13:32:16 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2020-11-13, 16:43:40
I have tried various versions with Fe with varying degrees of success.  The rotary version definitely works but I don't get the sort of gain you get with a long array, I am only using 16 magnets in the circle.  And, unlike the long array where the force can be made to always be positive, in this rotary version there is always negative torque regions that of course can be smoothed out, the overall torque is positive so it will definitely work.  The more I study this the clearer things are becoming.  I can do things in FEMM that would be impossible in practice, like replace the magnets with air cored solenoids carrying huge currents.  When you do that the energy extracted by the movement has to come from the current sources.  I can use FEMM to tell me the fluxes within each solenoid during the rotor movement and from that I can obtain the energy taken from or fed back to the current sources.  That tells me the energy taken from or fed back to the atomic dipoles within the magnets, so this should enable me to understand where the energy comes from.  It should also allow me to optimise the design.  I have always known that within magnet motors there is this complex exchange of energy with the internal dipoles, but have never before been able to exploit this feature to any advantage.  Hopefully this gives us a way to move ahead in the search for so called free energy.  More to come when I write it all up.

Smudge

Smudge,

Wouldn't a circle array with a large radius improve the magnetic characteristics?
Also, does the circle array have to be continuous? Could it be separated into 4 or 6 sections?

Regards
Cadman



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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #8 on: 2020-11-15, 16:08:01 »

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Quote from: Cadman on 2020-11-15, 13:32:16
Smudge,

Wouldn't a circle array with a large radius improve the magnetic characteristics?

Well I have just doubled the number of magnets at twice the radius and if anything it is worse.  This is with the working side of the array pointing inwards.  I can't simulate the system I proposed in my paper as FEMM is only a 2D program.  It seems the cylindrical geometry is the problem and maybe with the working side of the array pointing along the cylindrical axis it will work.

Quote
Also, does the circle array have to be continuous? Could it be separated into 4 or 6 sections?
I will try that, easy enough to chop out some sections in my simulation.

Smudge
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #9 on: 2020-11-27, 16:17:56 »

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I have had no success with a circular version of the modified Halbach array.  However having caught the magnetic motor bug I have been looking at motors with a circular array of tilted magnets for which there are several working models on youtube, including the infamous Perendev one.   I will report on this later.  Meanwhile I have looked into my linear modified Halbach motor to see where the energy comes from and while doing so realized that there is a simple way to look at how permanent magnets can give up energy (do work) that takes you to the heart of the problem.  See what you think of this paper.

Smudge
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #10 on: 2020-11-27, 16:39:52 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2020-11-27, 16:17:56
I have had no success with a circular version of the modified Halbach array.  However having caught the magnetic motor bug I have been looking at motors with a circular array of tilted magnets for which there are several working models on youtube, including the infamous Perendev one.   I will report on this later.  Meanwhile I have looked into my linear modified Halbach motor to see where the energy comes from and while doing so realized that there is a simple way to look at how permanent magnets can give up energy (do work) that takes you to the heart of the problem.  See what you think of this paper.

Smudge

Excellent paper!

PM
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #11 on: 2020-11-27, 22:35:39 »

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Thanks for this Cyril. Very interesting 🧐. I’m still building the circular array but I suspect I’ll see a similar behaviour that I have seen in my Howard Johnson motor build.
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #12 on: 2020-12-31, 17:08:28 »

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This may need a separate thread, but here is a paper about permanent magnet motors generally.  Since it deals with rectangular magnets, and knowing Jim B has some small square ones, I am hoping that some experiments will validate the conclusions.  If so it could open a new chapter into PM motor development.  I am sure that Chet will link this into OU.com and possibly other free energy sites.

Smudge
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #13 on: 2020-12-31, 22:23:36 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2020-12-31, 17:08:28
This may need a separate thread, but here is a paper about permanent magnet motors generally.  Since it deals with rectangular magnets, and knowing Jim B has some small square ones, I am hoping that some experiments will validate the conclusions.  If so it could open a new chapter into PM motor development.  I am sure that Chet will link this into OU.com and possibly other free energy sites.

Smudge
Happy new year smudge! Just had my first read. The tiny cube magnets are hard to work with in close proximity with fat fingers. This looks a lot easier to build than the last one. I may order new mags for it though.
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #14 on: 2021-01-01, 09:34:27 »

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Quote from: JimBoot on 2020-12-31, 22:23:36
Happy new year smudge! Just had my first read. The tiny cube magnets are hard to work with in close proximity with fat fingers. This looks a lot easier to build than the last one. I may order new mags for it though.
Happy new year Jim.  Before ordering new thinner magnets may I suggest a version of the motor you have been building using your cubic magnets.  This is illustrated in the image below and I think it could work.  It is not a halbach array, all the stator magnets have their N (or S) pole facing inwards.  It is clear to me that the rotor magnets will have a torque as they try to align with the radial field from the nearby stator magnet

Smudge
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #15 on: 2021-01-01, 15:31:55 »
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Quote from: Smudge on 2021-01-01, 09:34:27
...as they try to align with the radial field from the nearby stator magnet.


I wonder if the angle of their mounting should be adjustable.
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #16 on: 2021-01-02, 08:15:57 »

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Quote from: Smudge on 2021-01-01, 09:34:27
Happy new year Jim.  Before ordering new thinner magnets may I suggest a version of the motor you have been building using your cubic magnets.  This is illustrated in the image below and I think it could work.  It is not a halbach array, all the stator magnets have their N (or S) pole facing inwards.  It is clear to me that the rotor magnets will have a torque as they try to align with the radial field from the nearby stator magnet

Smudge
Thanks for that. It’s showing enough interesting behaviour for me to lose a lot of hours. What I’m seeing makes sense the way you explained. Edit. Designing an adjustable rotor. :}. Lost some hours on this today, thanks smudge
« Last Edit: 2021-01-02, 13:35:36 by JimBoot »
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #17 on: 2021-01-05, 08:37:54 »

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Hi Smudge I’m thinking of another rotor where those spokes are arcs with spots for 6 of those mags that I can test. The behaviour is very similar to the Howard Johnson motor. Also I think my stator mags need to be closer to ease clogging. I think precision is the key. I’ll be printing as much as I can 😂 edit forgot pic
« Last Edit: 2021-01-05, 09:09:06 by JimBoot »
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #18 on: 2021-01-05, 11:47:00 »
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Quote from: JimBoot on 2021-01-05, 08:37:54
Hi Smudge I’m thinking of another rotor where those spokes are arcs with spots for 6 of those mags that I can test. The behaviour is very similar to the Howard Johnson motor. Also I think my stator mags need to be closer to ease clogging. I think precision is the key. I’ll be printing as much as I can 😂 edit forgot pic

At the UK FE conference a decade ago, Patrick was talking about the Takahashi motor and pointed out the area in the cycle where energy regauging took place. He implied (and it is so sad he is no longer available to us - God rest him) that if a cycle didn't have an obvious "regauging area", then it wouln't draw in energy.]
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #19 on: 2021-01-05, 12:15:17 »

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Quote from: Paul-R on 2021-01-05, 11:47:00
At the UK FE conference a decade ago, Patrick was talking about the Takahashi motor and pointed out the area in the cycle where energy regauging took place. He implied (and it is so sad he is no longer available to us - God rest him) that if a cycle didn't have an obvious "regauging area", then it wouln't draw in energy.]
Makes sense. I think I have to much though so I’ll do a test with a new stator as well.
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #20 on: 2021-01-05, 15:09:09 »

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Paul R,
That need for regauging comes about if static magnetic fields, like static electric fields, are conservative.  That is if in moving around a closed loop a net energy gain or loss is zero.  It is the standard viewpoint of classical physics.  But if you look at some of the PM motors that have been seen to work, they do not have this regauging.  Clearly each rotor magnet is moving around a closed loop and is gaining energy.  This tells me that the classical view is wrong.  I may have discovered the flaw in classical EM with the finding (yet to be verified) that voltage can be induced into a coil not only by the rate-of-change of flux passing through it, but also by the rate of movement of a non-uniform PM field sweeping by it.

Jim B,
Thanks for taking interest in this and good luck with your experiments.

Regards
Smudge
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #21 on: 2021-01-07, 20:21:23 »
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #22 on: 2021-01-16, 15:54:46 »

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Another offering from me.  Enjoy!!
   
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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #23 on: 2021-01-16, 21:13:51 »
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Smudge
Thanks for the paper and it was an interesting read.

I had always considered a PM to be equivalent to a current loop because the electron orbits in the atoms/domains are a current loop. However PM's have some peculiar qualities like weak ferrite magnets being able to flip the domains and change polarity then return to the original state. We can also use a magnet as a storage device and if a rigidly held PM is struck near a coil the oscillations causing a loss of magnetism can produce extra induction. A magnet can also become a resonant circuit element by conduction and induction as some magnet materials conduct and are prone to eddy current formation within the material.

I did countless experiments on various magnets and setups using hall effect magnetometers/tickler coils and there is a lot to learn.

Regards
AC


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Re: Smudge's Halbach Motor « Reply #24 on: 2021-01-20, 23:05:47 »
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Smudge
I thought you might be interested in another magnetic effect a simulator does not show correctly.

The primary reason many can't seem to make any headway is because there not using the scientific method. That is to theorize that something could occur and why then test the theory. Another reason is that there not using the correct instruments to gather data and then compare the data to a baseline or norm. I use a dual polarity hall effect magnetometer I built connected to my DSO or laptop, a tickler coil, a test electromagnet coil and a compass in many experiments.

Here is one example of why the scientific method and the instruments above are needed. I had a theory that a weak ferrite magnet could momentarily flip it's polarity then return to it's original state. However we cannot determine the magnetic phase relationship using only a electromagnet coil because it is biased by the magnetic field. We must have a baseline to build on measuring only the magnet field, only the coil field then the relationship between them under a given set of conditions.

It was found that the coil measurement is not the same as the hall effect measurement and there is a difference between them. The magnet material can partially flip in polarity and hold this state for a period of time then return to it's original state as if it had a property similar to inertia. However we would never see it or attribute it as an artifact of induction if we only used an electromagnet coil.

It was also found that eddy currents can be generated within a magnet just like any other conductive material thus we can have a condition where attraction is negated by an induced field causing repulsion ie. Lenz Law. I believe this is why many inventors spoke of certain "qualities" a specific material can possess under certain conditions. A magnet can also generate physical/electro-magnetic oscillations within itself under the right conditions so long as the impulse is much shorter in duration than it's own resonant frequency. These are just a few of the anomalies I have found and there are countless more.

My point is that unless were specifically looking for these anomalies with our theory and test them by experiment with the proper instruments it would be almost impossible to detect...the devil is always in the details.

Regards
AC



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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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