1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup

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Author Topic: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup (Read 38986 times)

BEP	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #50 on: 2010-11-11, 06:33:59 »
Group: Guest	Peterae, You are trying to build a passive frequency multiplier and I suspect your signal source may be fairly clean of harmonics. In any case, the energy found in the harmonics will be quite low compared to the fundamental. If you wish harmonics then you need a dirty signal (distorted, clipped, square wave with switching transients, etc.) A spark gap is a good switch for generating harmonics. The tank just passes or attenuates harmonics. I have some notes on a functioning passive frequency multiplier to share. It may be a bit. I'm into 17 hours at work this day.

Peterae	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #51 on: 2010-11-11, 08:11:17 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Thanks WW I did suspect this, I thought about using my white noise generator, but the frequencys are too high that i require. Not a problem, now you have confirmed what i thought i can research my problem. Cheers for your time, i know you are a very busy man

Grumpy	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #52 on: 2010-11-14, 15:45:09 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Your system is not driving anything that has a mechanism for gain. You might try changing one of the secondaries to a tertiary magnifier coil and locate it so it is not inductively coupled to the other two coils. Now you will have a two-coil Tesla transformer driving a magnifier coil. Ground on leg of the secondary and the other leg of the secondary goes to the tertiary coil and the other and of the tertiary coil has the large surface area top load. You can bring the ground and top terminal together for plasma between them. Tesla also stated in the CS Notes that you can drive two tertiary coils with a standard transformer, with a ferrous core, and achieve any potential desired. Tesla states that the rise is pressure is due to the factor pL/R. p is the spark rate per second, L is inductance, R is resistance of magnifier coil. He also explains that high self capacity absorbs the energy and ruins the magnification.

BEP	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #53 on: 2010-11-14, 16:12:06 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-11-14, 15:45:09 Your system is not driving anything that has a mechanism for gain. Just curious.... 'Gain' as in antenna-like? (meaning no increase in energy just tighter focus). Or, gain in energy? Quote p is the spark rate per second, L is inductance, R is resistance of magnifier coil. He also explains that high self capacity absorbs the energy and ruins the magnification. So he was specifically limiting the tertiary coil to be a planar, single layer, with series opposing bi-filar? (lowest self-capacitance and typically lowest SRF while minimizing inductance and resistance). Since the idea of the infinite negative inductance can only work with an open-ended inductor, your suggestion makes some sense.

Peterae	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #54 on: 2010-11-14, 16:42:57 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	That is interesting advice G Thank you, i am now trying to put these things into my next 3 coil design. The problem i have then , is that i will wind for bifilar which will no doubt cause high self capacity(So this looks bad) Following what WW said maybe i should then wind a quad coil and connect in pairs to form a bifilar version of Tesla's special coil but solenoid in type. I also need to get as lower self resonant frequency for a small amount of wire as possible but i need to use bifilar to have 1 coil driven by a fet and the other to be mutually coupled to the driven coil. Maybe it would be better for me to build this device flat using pancake coils, this way i can place the 2 identical coils on top of each other, while still maintaining matched self resonance for each pair, the problem i have with this arrangement is that i dont know of any device being quoted as successfully OU in this config. Because i am aiming for low frequency 35khz,70khz and 105 khz maybe instead of pancake i could wind 1cm think coils but large diameter, i could still use Tesla's 2 wire coil arrangement, i could do some tests to see which gives me low SR while using less wire. I was going to use 12 inch pipe to wind on.

Grumpy	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #55 on: 2010-11-14, 17:02:30 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2010-11-14, 16:12:06 Just curious.... 'Gain' as in antenna-like? (meaning no increase in energy just tighter focus). Or, gain in energy? So he was specifically limiting the tertiary coil to be a planar, single layer, with series opposing bi-filar? (lowest self-capacitance and typically lowest SRF while minimizing inductance and resistance). Since the idea of the infinite negative inductance can only work with an open-ended inductor, your suggestion makes some sense. Gain in energy. Yes, the third coil was planar, windings slighty separated. Tesla used various configurations but Dollard shows the math in one of his charts that when the coil length is the same as the coil diameter, then the self capacitance is at its minimum and the self-inductance is at its maximum. A coil with very high self-capacitance can never gain energy. "The Buzz" specifically mentioned this in reference to Thane's early e-core transformer thing, which Buzz replicated. The value we call inductance is also related to the space around the coil. The fields are in the space, yet coupled to the coil, so they are accessible. For example, place a ferrite core in the coil and increase the permeability of the space within the coil and increase the inductance of the coil. People like to see the physical core, but overlook that fact that it alters space. No bifilar. Resonance was just a means to build up the potential from a small potential to excite the magnifying coil. Thus, as Tesla stated, you can often do better with a standard transformer.

BEP	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #56 on: 2010-11-14, 18:06:19 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-11-14, 17:02:30 windings slighty separated. I should have included that. The conductors need to be spaced 2-2.5 X conductor cross-section apart center to center. Otherwise, turn to turn capacitance is high (not negative inductance). Yes, I do suggest pancakes and Yes, I do suggest bi-filar but wound to minimize capacitance. Peterae, Design a pancake coil to meet your needs without worrying about resonance frequency, not bi-filar. Maximize conductor cross-section and minimize coil turn count. Add the turn spacing I mentioned, above. Tell me what the actual coil SRF is (without a capacitor added) and what conventional resonance frequency you wish. I'll show you how to lower the conventional RF resonance point to your preferred frequency, or close to it. BEP Edit>> Hopefully we can get this done before I start a new week at work

Peterae	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #57 on: 2010-11-14, 19:49:20 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	ok so it looks like i am going flat coiled and would you belive it the Mrs has just asked me to make pancakes, wow she was lucky i nearly sneaked away to my lab WW so if i was to make a 6 inch flat coil, are you saying you can tell me how to make it 35kHz no matter how much wire i used

Peterae	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #58 on: 2010-11-14, 19:51:25 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	OOPS no just reread your post, ok first off this device i am building needs to rely on the SRF of the coil to work, no adding caps.

Grumpy	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #59 on: 2010-11-14, 20:23:36 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	A rise in voltage via a transformer effect can not explain the rise in voltage by the magnifying coil. It is not even coupled inductively to the other coils. There may be a minimum voltage threshold.

Peterae	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #60 on: 2010-11-14, 20:53:37 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	yes i see G, everyone is trying HV spark gaps ect, this is OK if you want a knock on your door and have all your equipment taken away. I am convinced the same principles can be used to make a LF solid state version, (TPU) and when we work it out, i bet they all work on the same principle. I have a feeling a LF device is capable of capturing more power than a HF device as well(Don used LF but never divulged the true design), theres only one way to find out, the thing with LF is the parts are cheap. OK so i will need more wire and the coils will be harder to make, but this is only a matter of mastering. I am trying to settle on a coil design to get me started, trouble with WW pancake is i cannot think of a working device that uses this method of coil setup. Maybe i should just use solenoid coils but large maybe 12 inch diameter, i need bifilar, because one coil is driven by the fets and the other is used to mix the 3 harmonics together, i have isolated them this way because i am driving each coil, where as the HV guys are using a dirty Spark Gap to excite all 3, my system should be much more energy efficient because i am not spewing noise across the whole spectrum. The annoying thing is that i need a degree of tuning the SRF and the only way i can do this is to place taps every now and then

BEP	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #61 on: 2010-11-14, 21:16:21 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Peterae on 2010-11-14, 19:51:25 OOPS no just reread your post, ok first off this device i am building needs to rely on the SRF of the coil to work, no adding caps. There are limits on how low you can go. 35.705 kHz or anything below around 300 kHz is very difficult. Better go ahead and make those pancakes for the wife but before you go... tell me what size and material solid wire you have. Hopefully, greater than 1mm diameter.

BEP	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #62 on: 2010-11-14, 21:22:03 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Peterae on 2010-11-14, 20:53:37 I am trying to settle on a coil design to get me started, trouble with WW pancake is i cannot think of a working device that uses this method of coil setup. I'm pretty sure the TPU uses the method I will help you with. Quote The annoying thing is that i need a degree of tuning the SRF and the only way i can do this is to place taps every now and then You will need to trim one end until things are best. The idea is to design a coil that audibly resonates around 6 kHz but has an SRF in the extreme high ultrasonics and a magnetic resonance near the VLF band. Kinky, no?

BEP	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #63 on: 2010-11-14, 21:24:27 »
Group: Guest	And you won't need any caps Edit.... Working on an example in case the World demands our attention.....

Peterae	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #64 on: 2010-11-14, 21:45:43 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Well the pancakes were lovely Sounds good WW you talked me round. I will buy what ever wire i need,i understand the trimming of the wire to tune, but at such low frequency's i was worried about not being able to tune each coil until in it's final resting place, which would be when all 3 coils are made and placed together then the tuning would be done i guess. Am i still able to have 2 coils for each frequency, one being driven by the fet and the other matching coil being excited by it. Frequency wise, i guess it doesn't matter too much, i was hoping for 35kHz fundamental because of all the talk in the past with the TPU but i guess we could go 400, 800, 1.2MHz if it makes it easier to build.

Peterae	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #65 on: 2010-11-14, 21:49:53 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	Quote The idea is to design a coil that audibly resonates around 6 kHz but has an SRF in the extreme high ultrasonics and a magnetic resonance near the VLF band. You really seem to know where this should go, i guess you dont have enough time to build yourself. Quote And you won't need any caps Smiley

Peterae	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #66 on: 2010-11-14, 21:52:54 »
Group: Administrator Hero Member Posts: 3961	maybe we should switch to the proper thread for the new device. http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=417.0

BEP	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #67 on: 2010-11-14, 22:31:11 »
Group: Guest	I'll make the next posts to that thread. I'll take you through getting one coil 'resonating' at oddly low frequencies without caps. You'll have to expand from there. World calling at the moment. Later

Grumpy	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #68 on: 2010-11-15, 00:09:51 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Quote from: Peterae on 2010-11-14, 20:53:37 yes i see G, everyone is trying HV spark gaps ect, this is OK if you want a knock on your door and have all your equipment taken away. I am convinced the same principles can be used to make a LF solid state version, (TPU) and when we work it out, i bet they all work on the same principle. I have a feeling a LF device is capable of capturing more power than a HF device as well(Don used LF but never divulged the true design), theres only one way to find out, the thing with LF is the parts are cheap. OK so i will need more wire and the coils will be harder to make, but this is only a matter of mastering. I am trying to settle on a coil design to get me started, trouble with WW pancake is i cannot think of a working device that uses this method of coil setup. Maybe i should just use solenoid coils but large maybe 12 inch diameter, i need bifilar, because one coil is driven by the fets and the other is used to mix the 3 harmonics together, i have isolated them this way because i am driving each coil, where as the HV guys are using a dirty Spark Gap to excite all 3, my system should be much more energy efficient because i am not spewing noise across the whole spectrum. The annoying thing is that i need a degree of tuning the SRF and the only way i can do this is to place taps every now and then Yes spark gaps are noisy, but I have experienced NO interference with just avalanche transistors and no gaps. Your own experiments with the bifilar coil showed that it produces a compressed pulse of higher magnitude. HV from LV. OK. Put a large trashcan outside the window of your lab. Open window. Throw all resonant stuff in trashcan. Resonance is just means to build up something small into something larger. There is not OU there. It is just a child in a a swing. Yes for LF. Eric Dollard used pancake coils in one of his videos, but he drove them with 20kv from a Tesla Transformer (pancake therapeutic type). In the end, you are just hitting a CCU with HV pulses...

Grumpy	Re: 1 Mhz Resonant Coil Setup « Reply #69 on: 2010-11-15, 04:23:11 »
Group: Tinkerer Hero Member Posts: 3948 tExB=qr	Test question: What "change" to space is required to "magnify voltage"? Hint: What is inductance (L)? How does permeability affect inductance? Increase the permeability and you increase the self-inductance. It magnifies itself, so to speak.

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