PopularFX
Home Help Search Login Register
Welcome,Guest. Please login or register.
OverUnity Research > Benches > Itsu (Moderator: Itsu) > Manson SPS-9400 Switching PS repair
2024-11-26, 08:21:46
News: If you have a suggestion or need for a new board title, please PM the Admins.
Please remember to keep topics and posts of the FE or casual nature. :)

Pages: [1] 2
Author Topic: Manson SPS-9400 Switching PS repair  (Read 5825 times)
Topic Options img
img  Itsu
Manson SPS-9400 Switching PS repair « on: 2020-10-06, 11:40:00 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4159
I found my Ham radio 14V /40A Switching mode PS (Manson SPS-9400) failed to poweron (after 15s switching off).

Looks like a protection circuit is doing that, its TOP222Y is getting very hot fast, could be defective or the transformer it drives.
https://www.austech.info/showthread.php/55513-MP3090-SPS9400-power-supply-repair-hints

So will be troubleshooting that.


Itsu
« Last Edit: 2020-10-08, 09:33:35 by Itsu »
   
img  verpies
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #1 on: 2020-10-06, 12:05:12 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3498
Quote from: Itsu on 2020-10-06, 11:40:00
Also found my Ham radio 14V /40A Switching mode PS (Manson SPS4900) failed to poweron (after 15s switching off).
Oh shit!
Does this schematic match that power supply ?
   
img  Itsu
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #2 on: 2020-10-06, 12:15:14 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4159

Yes,  thats the one i also found and matches the layout i have up till now.

The zener ZD1 and diode D3 around the TOP222Y measure OK, also the TR2 primary seems OK as i measure (in circuit) 2.5mH.
   
img  verpies
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #3 on: 2020-10-06, 12:23:11 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3498
Quote from: Itsu on 2020-10-06, 12:15:14
the TR2 primary seems OK as i measure (in circuit) 2.5mH.
That is very good news.

If I were you, I'd remove the TOP222Y and the ZD1 (or D3) and remeasure the TR2 primary.

I would not be quick to assume that the TOP222Y is bad. I would test it according to its basic application circuit in its datasheet.
Failed ZD2 or D6 on the secondary side could cause it to overheat, too.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #4 on: 2020-10-06, 12:31:27 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4159
Right, D6 and ZD2 and D7 also measure fine.

The TOP222Y measure (DMM diode setting) D / S  as a diode,  so  looks OK too.

Yes,  i will follow the TOP222Y datasheet i just downloaded to check on it.

 
   
img  verpies
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #5 on: 2020-10-06, 13:14:12 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3498
I measured my new TOP224Y, which is a 3x higher power version of the TOP222Y, and I discovered that:
- Between the Control terminal and the Source terminal the Diode measurement by my multimeter yields 0.5V when the negative probe is on the Control terminal (open circuit in the other direction).
- Between the Control terminal and the Drain terminal the Diode measurement by my multimeter yields 2.2V when the negative probe is on the Control terminal (open circuit in the other direction).
- Between the Source terminal and Drain terminal it measures as a Diode with 0.5V voltage drop.

When connecting it as shown in Fig.14 of the datasheet and with +40V DC applied to the drain through a 500Ω 5W resistor, it generates 300kHz pulses on the Drain terminal for 3.85ms and then nothing for 67ms, when the Control terminal is left floating but bypassed with a 4.7µF cap to the Source terminal. When that capacitor is increased to 47µF then these 300kHz pulses stay ON for 38ms and OFF for 666ms.
« Last Edit: 2020-10-06, 14:45:29 by verpies »
   
img  Itsu
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #6 on: 2020-10-06, 14:46:53 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4159

Ok, thanks,   good to know.

Need to remove the TOP222y from the pcb still.

First 15 seconds after poweron its ok, temperature gradually increases on the TOP222 from 20°C to 40°C then it shuts down the PS, but with the poweron button still on ON the temp still continue to rise
untill i switch the switch to OFF.

In those 15 seconds, all looks and works OK as far as i can see / measure.

Itsu


 
   
img  verpies
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #7 on: 2020-10-06, 14:53:07 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3498
Quote from: Itsu on 2020-10-06, 14:46:53
First 15 seconds after poweron its ok, temperature gradually increases on the TOP222 from 20°C to 40°C then it shuts down the PS, but with the poweron button still on ON the temp still continue to rise
until i switch the switch to OFF.
Maybe something is shorted on the secondary side and is overloading it.
You can disconnect the secondaries by removing D5, C71 and the wire to the DM VDD (in that order). 
The D6 is a part of the feedback voltage circuit so leave it for last, because removing the feedback voltage will increase the duty cycle of the PWM inside the TOP222Y and cause it to overheat even more (maybe that is happening already).
The voltage between the Source and Control pin should be around 5.7V if the feedback circuit is working properly.

If it stops shutting down with the secondaries separated then you will have a confirmation of secondary overload.

You can check that the TOP222Y is operating by putting an ISOLATED! current probe on its Drain terminal.  If you see current pulses on the scope then it is operating.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #8 on: 2020-10-06, 15:13:33 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4159

Using differential probing with my old Owon scope i see that there are pulses between drain and source of the TOP222.
These pulses continue after it shutsdown the PS, so it looks like the TOP222 is working OK.

Will try to disconnect the secondaries.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #9 on: 2020-10-06, 15:41:46 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4159
Source and Control pin is 5.8V, so looks good.     I find D3 also getting hot, but ZD1 not, also TR2 not.

VCC measured 13.8V then dropping to 12,5V then shutdown.

I cut D5, still heating up but no shutdown.

C71 not reachable from the top,  so have to remove the PCB first.
   
img  partzman
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #10 on: 2020-10-06, 16:02:32 »
Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1808
Quote from: Itsu on 2020-10-06, 15:41:46
Source and Control pin is 5.8V, so looks good.     I find D3 also getting hot, but ZD1 not, also TR2 not.

VCC measured 13.8V then dropping to 12,5V then shutdown.

I cut D5, still heating up but no shutdown.

C71 not reachable from the top,  so have to remove the PCB first.

If D3 is getting hot but not ZD1, ZD1 is most likely shorted.

Pm
   
img  Itsu
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #11 on: 2020-10-06, 16:12:36 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4159
Hi PM,   thanks,  but ZD1 measures OK with the DMM in diode setting.

I mentioned TR2 not heating up, but when measuring on the other side it does, so we have  TOP222, D3 and TR2 heating up then shutdown after 15 seconds.
   
img  partzman
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #12 on: 2020-10-06, 17:46:20 »
Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1808
Quote from: Itsu on 2020-10-06, 16:12:36
Hi PM,   thanks,  but ZD1 measures OK with the DMM in diode setting.

I mentioned TR2 not heating up, but when measuring on the other side it does, so we have  TOP222, D3 and TR2 heating up then shutdown after 15 seconds.

OK, but the diode test would not test for the zener breakdown of ZD1.  For example, if ZD1 breaks down at some lower voltage than 200v, the current to charge the primary of TR2 would possibly go continuous thus raising the dissipation in the TOP222 and D3 along with the primary of TR2.  The value of the zener at 200v is set to allow the primary flyback current to fall to near zero under the the maximum duty cycle to keep the current in a dis-continuous mode.

I would not recommend that you remove ZD1 and try the circuit because the TOP222 will more than likely avalanche and could destroy itself in a short period of time.

Regards,
Pm
   
img  Itsu
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #13 on: 2020-10-06, 21:35:29 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4159

I removed ZD1 and tested it with a 250V supply and it works OK as it was able to regulate it back to 200V.

I will tomorrow remove the TOP222 and test it like verpies showed.
Also then the TR2 can be removed and measured for correct workings (no shorts / opens).

Thanks for now,   Itsu
   
img  partzman
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #14 on: 2020-10-06, 22:21:35 »
Group: Experimentalist
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1808
Itsu,

Sorry for the wild goose chase!  :-[

Pm
   
img  verpies
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #15 on: 2020-10-07, 00:05:34 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3498
Quote from: Itsu on 2020-10-06, 21:35:29
I will tomorrow remove the TOP222 and test it like verpies showed.
Also then the TR2 can be removed and measured for correct workings (no shorts / opens).
A scopeshot of a signal from the current probe placed on the insulated red wire (see schematic) would tell us a lot about the health of TR2 in circuit.
We could also see whether the current through TR2 is discontinuous or continuous and whether the magnitude of this current exceeds TOP222Y specifications.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #16 on: 2020-10-07, 10:02:55 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4159
PM,

Quote
Sorry for the wild goose chase! 

don't be, i appreciate your input.



verpies,

see picture of backside of the pcb, your red line is only like a 5mm trace.


Removing DM VDD (connector) still heating up the TOP222
removing D5 still heating up the TOP222
No heating of D6 or ZD2 itself.

So secondary loads are probably OK, could be the TR2 secondaries inside (or primary).

I measure the heating up of primary the TOP222, then secondary C70 (very close to the TOP222), D3 and TR2.

There is 414V DC (DMM) across C70.

I will remove the top222 and TR2 for measurements.


Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #17 on: 2020-10-07, 15:47:05 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4159

TOP222 removed, and measuring with the DMM in diode setting, comparing with below verpies results:


Quote
I measured my new TOP224Y, which is a 3x higher power version of the TOP222Y, and I discovered that:
- Between the Control terminal and the Source terminal the Diode measurement by my multimeter yields 0.5V when the negative probe is on the Control terminal (open circuit in the other direction).
- Between the Control terminal and the Drain terminal the Diode measurement by my multimeter yields 2.2V when the negative probe is on the Control terminal (open circuit in the other direction).
- Between the Source terminal and Drain terminal it measures as a Diode with 0.5V voltage drop.


Mine shows:
 
- Cntr - Source  =  0.5V   (black on Ctrl)   open other direction
- Cntr - Drain     =  open   (black on Ctrl)   open other direction
- Source - Drain =  0.5V   (black on Drain)  open other direction.

So it seems there is a difference between Ctrl and Drain.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #18 on: 2020-10-07, 16:26:15 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4159

Some Fig. 14 setup screenshots with 47uF on Ctrl-source and 40V on drain via a 470 Ohm resistor.

Itsu
   
img  Itsu
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #19 on: 2020-10-07, 17:33:55 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4159
According to the TOP222y data sheet page 12, its "Thermal Shutdown Temperature" is 135°C

So why does it "look like" its shutting down around 40°C?  Is it the thermal delay between inside of the chip and the outside casing?
   
img  verpies
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #20 on: 2020-10-07, 20:16:44 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3498
Quote from: Itsu on 2020-10-07, 15:47:05
- Cntr - Drain     =  open   (black on Ctrl)   open other direction
...
So it seems there is a difference between Ctrl and Drain.
Could be, but maybe my multimeter applies a higher test voltage or the lower version of the TOP controller has a higher voltage drop that is above the range of your Diode test.
   
img  verpies
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #21 on: 2020-10-07, 20:19:04 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3498
Quote from: Itsu on 2020-10-07, 16:26:15
Some Fig. 14 setup screenshots with 47uF on Ctrl-source and 40V on drain via a 470 Ohm resistor.
Looks like it is working, although that test does not excercise the Ctrl pin exhaustively.
   
img  verpies
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #22 on: 2020-10-07, 20:25:21 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3498
Quote from: Itsu on 2020-10-07, 17:33:55
According to the TOP222y data sheet page 12, its "Thermal Shutdown Temperature" is 135°C
So why does it "look like" its shutting down around 40°C?  Is it the thermal delay between inside of the chip and the outside casing?
I am sure that there is a thermal delay between the chip and the package but 15sec seems too long to explain the shutdown this way. If a freeze spray extends the shutdown time then it would be a confirmation of this explanation.

This PWM controller chip also has several other shut down modes, such as overcurrent, overvoltage and undervoltage.  It is worth investigating them.
The first one can only be inspected by soldering an insulated wire between the lifted Drain terminal and the PCB (as short as possible) and putting a current probe on it.
   
img  verpies
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #23 on: 2020-10-07, 20:33:32 »

Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3498
Quote from: Itsu on 2020-10-07, 10:02:55
There is 414V DC (DMM) across C70.
Yeah, if the caps or resistors in the probes break down then this can destroy the frond end of the scope.  Even when probing differentially.
Are you running your test gear on galvanically isolated separation transformers ?
   
img  Itsu
Re: Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair « Reply #24 on: 2020-10-07, 20:56:37 »

Group: Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 4159
Quote
Even when probing differentially.

Good to know.

Quote
Are you running your test gear on galvanically isolated separation transformers ?


No,  but what do you mean by test gear,  the gear under test (defective PS) or gear used for testing (scope etc.)?

I understand that the best thing to do is to have the DUT isolated, so in this case the defective PS.


By the way, i will try to move this SPS4900 repair part to a new thread, so don't be surprised if it is moved later tonight to this thread:

"Manson SPS4900 Switching PS repair"
   
Pages: [1] 2
« previous next »


 

Home Help Search Login Register
Theme © PopularFX | Based on PFX Ideas! | Scripts from iScript4u 2024-11-26, 08:21:46