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OverUnity Research > Benches > Itsu (Moderator: Itsu) > Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication.
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Author Topic: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication.  (Read 14971 times)
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img  Itsu
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #50 on: 2020-10-03, 09:39:41 »

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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2020-10-02, 18:36:44
I would also point out that what Partzman and Itsu are doing is what good science should look like. Doing some meaningful theorizing with justification to support the theory and real experiments. We need more of this kind of quality work in my opinion.

With that in mind, I'm almost done my new Arduino FE/efficiency detector based on input/output capacitors. I haven't added that much that qualifies as tangible to the FE community lately and I think this can help. No more DSO's or expensive equipment would be required and a $50 device can give us 100% reliable and meaningful data. The only real limitation is the power handling capability which peaks at around 100 watts on my setup.

A science paper will also published with all the relevant schematics, components, testing, data graphs and the results. In my opinion the key is removing all the uncertainty and ambiguity we see out there and this is a step in the right direction.

Regards

Sounds great,  looking forward to your publishing of this tool, it could help a lot of people.


Itsu
   
img  Chet K
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #51 on: 2020-10-03, 15:13:00 »
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Well
I agree
And another friend of community
Has a nano pulser he is designing (actually it’s done)

For experiments



   
img  verpies
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #52 on: 2020-10-03, 16:42:17 »

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Quote from: Chet K on 2020-10-03, 15:13:00
And another friend of community has a nano pulser he is designing (actually it’s done)
What's his FWHM amplitude and pulse width ?
   
img  Chet K
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #53 on: 2020-10-03, 20:05:05 »
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Just asked today
Will get more info

But might be more light duty

More a “twitcher”  than a PULSER !!
   
img  Itsu
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #54 on: 2020-10-03, 23:34:29 »

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OK, as promised, an input / output measurement using the scope with the new coil set.

Input measured using the scope, but at 12V as at 30V (or slightly higher then 12V) there is massive HV and RF influencing the equipment causing erroneous measurement results.

Input measures ONLY the drain voltage/current, so ignoring the MOSFET driver input AND the FG input.

Using a single 12V/5W automotiv bulb driven at its normal levels.

screenshot 1 shows the input (drain only) and is calculated as 9.6W
screenshot 2 shows the output across the 12V bulb and is calculated as 5W
COP = 0.52.

So using severall setups during these last days i get an average COP of around 0.5.

No response from CaptainLoz on my severall questions, so i take it that he is not interested in exchanging data, which is fine with me and i will continue with other stuff.

Hopefully others (members from Chris his forum??) will jump in and show their replications.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3vjOm-wI_E

Regards Itsu
« Last Edit: 2020-10-04, 09:53:29 by Itsu »
   
img  partzman
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #55 on: 2020-10-04, 00:48:03 »
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Itsu,

Good work as usual!  O0  I doubt CaptianLoz will contact you as I have gotten close to the same COP results as you from Chris's design info.  As I read his AU forum, most there do not know how or have the proper techniques to make accurate measurements.  I don't say that to slam them, it's just a fact.  I will make a critical comment however, I love the videos on that sight where the author just points at wires in a circuit and shows scope pix without any audio!  For the life of me, I can't understand what the point is!!!

regards,
Pm

Edit:  Chris will say and has said on his forum to his followers, "They don't know what they're doing"!  Oh well.
   
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Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #56 on: 2020-10-04, 03:17:59 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2020-10-03, 23:34:29
Input measured using the scope, but at 12V as at 30V (or slightly higher then 12V) there is massive HV and RF influencing the equipment causing erroneous measurement results.
Yes, the HV RF can damage your equipment so the only safer and reliable way to judge the output power is by the temperature of a resistor or the brightness of the light bulb. (I use the same type of bulb because it has a non-coiled filament).
The input power cannot be judged with a light bulb, so the DC readings provided by the power supply, which supplies current to the DUT through a multistage input filter constructed out of hefty EMI chokes and very large caps, is the simplest way.

Quote from: Itsu on 2020-10-03, 23:34:29
Not response from CaptainLoz on my severall questions, so i take it that he is not interested in exchanging data, which is fine with me and i will continue with other stuff.
It was a nice low frequency break from the MHz land in the NMR thread.
   
img  verpies
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #57 on: 2020-10-04, 03:25:31 »

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Quote from: partzman on 2020-10-04, 00:48:03
Edit:  Chris will say and has said on his forum to his followers, "They don't know what they're doing"!  Oh well.
What's wrong with this replication?
Is it the 1Ω CSR instead of 100mΩ ?
   
img  Chet K
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #58 on: 2020-10-04, 11:12:54 »
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Itsu
Could you try to take a temperature reading of bulb during run?
And then perhaps bulb just connected to power supply ...run input until it matches device run temp?

And then drive bulb up to what Captain loz is claiming ( what is bulbs temp?

IMO would be good data to see

Also luxmeter comparison

The experimenters need to realize they can check these claims very easily !
   
img  AlienGrey
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #59 on: 2020-10-04, 14:05:19 »
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Hi I dont know if any one noticed but over on Over Uty Handle 'color' put up a link to a vid with English speaker
he showed a devise similar to the device your having fun with, he was saying after many experiments he could only
get his device to work with a 2in tube and pri and sec length wasn't important but weight was.

I have tried to find it since but he or she has a habit of deleting stuff, such is life, well there i let you know
use it or forget it eh!

AG
   
img  Chet K
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #60 on: 2020-10-04, 14:24:43 »
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I asked in that topic yesterday
He gave me a hammer and a block of sand ( told me to pound salt and tell my story walking ( away 🙂

I removed the request

Also can you remember when he posted ?(about?)
Post cannot be altered after forum times out that feature

So it should still be there ...

If you could respond above in your last post
I will look ( just to not flood itsu topic... and perhaps someone else will know about the other
Public video?
EDIT
Image of recommended Extech LT300 with
Remote sensing unit
I am told these can be found around 100.00

However, IMO ever Captain has a laser thermometer on board! 27 or so dollars
« Last Edit: 2020-10-04, 16:24:15 by Chet K »
   
img  partzman
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #61 on: 2020-10-04, 15:17:42 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2020-10-04, 03:25:31
What's wrong with this replication?
Is it the 1Ω CSR instead of 100mΩ ?

IMO, there is nothing wrong with Itsu's replication!  The 1 ohm CSR is far better than the .1 ohm for current measurement resolution. 

However, Chris would probably say that we don't have the "resonance" right.  He never really defines "resonance" but sometimes refers to it as "magnetic" and other times references "wavelength" and yet again likens the device operation to a rotor and stator configuration plus even mentions core delay, etc.  So who really knows?

I wish him and his followers the best but if they really have OU, wouldn't one expect to see some sort of working device after 5 or so years?

Regards,
Pm
   
img  verpies
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #62 on: 2020-10-04, 16:29:41 »

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Quote from: Chet K on 2020-10-04, 11:12:54
Also luxmeter comparison
Yes, an incandescent light bulb with a straight filament, like the one Itsu has shown in his video, measured with a luxmeter in a dark box, would be a safe and reliable way to compare the OUTPUT POWER.
IR/laser temperature meter is not suitable for a light bulb, but it is suitable for a non-inductive matte BLACK resistor (although it is slower because it takes a long time for the resistor to equilibrize with the ambient temperature, which is just another confounding factor). A thermistor will work, too.

The lightbulb and resistor tricks do not work for measuring the INPUT POWER.
The only easy way to measure the INPUT POWER is to supply the DUT through a multistage LCR filter, which makes sure that only flat DC is drawn from the power supply.  Then the multiplication of the Amps x Volts displayed by the power supply (or external meters* connected before the filter) will be accurate. The electrolytic caps should be large and the smaller caps should have different values e.g. 1nF and 100pF.  The chokes should have spaced winding turns (to minimize the CIT) and not saturate nor heat up under load. Their magnetic coupling must be minimized in order to keep their mutual inductance low - this means toroidal or pot cores and orthogonal placement at a distance.



* If the DUT returns more energy to the power supply than it takes periodically on average, then the ammeter will read a negative value.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #63 on: 2020-10-04, 16:31:28 »

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Quote from: Chet K on 2020-10-04, 11:12:54
Itsu
Could you try to take a temperature reading of bulb during run?
And then perhaps bulb just connected to power supply ...run input until it matches device run temp?

And then drive bulb up to what Captain loz is claiming ( what is bulbs temp?

IMO would be good data to see

Also luxmeter comparison

The experimenters need to realize they can check these claims very easily !

Hi Chet,

CaptainLoz uses different bulb (14V) AND a 12V led, so its hard to compare, but its already mentioned by f.i. picowatt that there cannot be running 30W output while only powering these 2x 14V / 2.8W bulbs at seemingly normal brightness.

But i used my setup with a single 12V/5W bulb to compare brightness using a smartphone Lux app and a laser temp meter (not really useable for this).

Lux app used was "lux light meter pro - free" using the front camera (iphone).

First setup was using the captainloz device running and set to 5W output on the scope measuring 1804 lux and 51°C with the laser temp meter.
.
Secondly i kept the bulb and smartphone in place and used a DC source adjusted to give the same lux value, then noting the voltage / current thus watts used.
Set at 1803 lux the DC input was 14.1V / 380mA thus 5.3W.
The laser temp meter showed 54°C.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmtaDYriMQM

I hope this is what you mean

Regards itsu
   
img  Chet K
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #64 on: 2020-10-04, 16:57:37 »
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Itsu
Thank you
I have never tried laser therm on such tiny
Bulbs
I do know the black dot target keeps more accurate data
Reflectivity effects accuracy
This happens with infrared light

Remember Ken Wheeler bithmus heat claim with magnets??
He was using very expensive IF camera
And did not realize such artifacts can happen!!
TinselKoala found that error

As did all thereafter who did not get results with normal caloric methods)

Do you have a remote thermometer around? ( place bulb in box ?
Compare temps inside box against ambient loss?

For clarity on bigger bulbs with some high temp
Paint ( flat black) ION scaled various bulbs through
Input range he said he could calibrate bulbs (input against temperature)

He was going to send me this info
But ??
I can ask if they ever got his files open

So much good work he did

Thanks for giving effort here
This is on my to do list
However you have actuall DEvice
   
img  Chet K
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #65 on: 2020-10-04, 17:17:43 »
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For clarity
If Captain loz and his crew all used the same
Bulbs
ION said he could calibrate the bulb through all inputs
And anybody on the planet with access to bulb could use this
Chart for output

However his fixed loss to ambient protocol was more accurate
where frequencies and other issues were involved
Things that would fry equipment and cause reading errors on meters

Priceless edition to a builders tool box
A cardboard box and thermometer

😳
   
img  Itsu
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #66 on: 2020-10-04, 17:34:34 »

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Chet,

i do have a blackend tube which contain a solar cell which i used to do some bulb / led calibration, see picture.

I can drill a hole in the side to install the temperature sensor and make some temp readings, but the tube is not really good isolated.

Will try some tonight.


Itsu
   
img  partzman
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #67 on: 2020-10-04, 18:05:02 »
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It is a little bit of a question as to exactly which bulb the AU group is using.  It is a Radio shack lamp and they offer two version that fit that bulb design in an S10 base.  One is a 14v at 200ma and the other is 14v at 270ma.

These lamps are still available today at RS.

What is puzzling to me is that with the COP so low, why go to all the trouble with calorimetry? 

Regards,
Pm
   
img  Chet K
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #68 on: 2020-10-04, 18:19:41 »
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Itsu
Fixed loss to ambient requires poor insulation

Your input will only sustain a given temp against this loss to ambient

And them temperature inside box will stabilize against losses
This is the entire point !

Noting that temp limit reached after reasonable time
Write down temp

Captain should place his entire device in lossy cardboard box
If his box gets hotter than control (just same bulb driven to (was it 17 watts ?? )


He should see in a few minutes the results to verify his 34 watts output claim
Or?



Compare against control (just a bulb driven at same input
Would work)

Sorry working atm
Not doing a good job explaining
Will rewrite later
   
img  verpies
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #69 on: 2020-10-04, 20:33:56 »

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Quote from: Chet K on 2020-10-04, 17:17:43
A cardboard box and thermometer
Actually you'd need 2 thermometers to accurately measure the output power with the equilibrium temperature of a resistor.
One thermometer to measure the temperature of the resistor and the other one to measure the ambient temperature.  You can plug these two values into an Excel spreadsheet, which contains you calibration lookup table, and obtain a very accurate output power measurement.

If you want to measure the light output of a light bulb, then you can use a variety of light sensors, e.g.: phototdiode, phototransistor, LDR, CCD, CMOS, PV cell, ...but they better be thermally isolated or behind a fan because these illuminance sensors are affected not only by light but by their temperature as well.  The last thing you want is for these light sensors to act as thermometers (incandescent light bulbs will heat them up!).  A Hot Mirror or IR Cut filter or long glass optical fiber can remedy this.

Q: Which one is better?
A: Both are equally accurate but measuring the light output is FASTER, however for best accuracy it requires thermal isolation of the light sensor and a dark box.

Q: Why can't these things be bought on eBay ?
A: Because each one requires individual calibration with known DC current which is time consuming (the light sensing method is less sensitive to miscalibration because it does not depend on the thermal conductivity of the resistor's heat sink, thermal paste, air circulation, etc...).  Also these methods cannot measure the input power.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #70 on: 2020-10-04, 21:45:09 »

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I made some temperature measurements of the bulb in a blackbox driven by the device (about 5W).

My understanding is that this way we can compare the temperature rise over time of the bulb when driven by the device and when driven by a fixed DC value.

For now i will show what happens when driven by the device.

I also show the light output as seen by a little solar cell in the blackbox and contrary what i thought and in agreement with what verpies mentioned, this is NOT stable.
The heat of the bulb also heats up the solar cell and in my case decreases its output voltage.

The data / graphs shows the heating up of the little black box due to the bulb over time and the decrease of the voltage from the solar cell due to the heating up of that solar cell.

Next step, i think, could be to do the same measurement, but now with the bulb driven with a known DC voltage and to compare the results as they should be the same.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAp2VXLUnWE

Itsu 
   
img  Chet K
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #71 on: 2020-10-04, 21:58:16 »
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//Sorry to post over itsu report //
——————————

Well
If a given globe (say a sphere shape)
Is run on calibrated input and scaled from Nil
To Max
Ion said he could make a data sheet for the bulb
A calibration sheet
And he could also give ambient temp formula to work with bulb size
For calibration chart.

At such and such a bulb temperature in ambient temp of (see chart)
Your bulb has x for watts output
He also had done this I believe on many bulbs and had the spread sheets

And had said he could do this if we ever had a need
And send bulbs globally (calibrated bulbs )
For measuring ( persons with no equipment could still gauge results
And be a part of the work being done!
And contribute reasonable data

Ernie was a great innovator when it came to maximizing
Resources!

And giving everyone a chance to participate

Verpies
Yes he did mention your method
It is very good way to do this

Calibrated resistors could be sent to builders
All having the same to compare quickly results
When working with circuits that tend to damage
Equipment or effect readings

Cardboard lossy boxes are great for quick tests

I have just received a lab report for a similar test done on Lux meter!
I am trying to open it
I believe it may be a formal document done for
Client (lab report)

Not sure I can post parts yet as examples
Nor would I without permission!

I personally love this type of testing
And this captain loz experiment is perfect application!
   
img  verpies
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #72 on: 2020-10-04, 23:20:29 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2020-10-04, 21:45:09
The heat of the bulb also heats up the solar cell and in my case decreases its output voltage.
The first time I encountered this problem, I destroyed my Mom's decoration...



...and used it to separate the hot bulb from the light sensor.
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #73 on: 2020-10-05, 00:12:37 »
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Itsu
Quote
I made some temperature measurements of the bulb in a blackbox driven by the device (about 5W).
My understanding is that this way we can compare the temperature rise over time of the bulb when driven by the device and when driven by a fixed DC value.
For now i will show what happens when driven by the device.

I once built a bomb calorimeter which works well. I wrapped the resistor leads in fiberglass tape as high heat insulation and stuffed it in sealed a metal tube. This was then placed in an insulated foam container of water with a 10K thermistor to measure the temperature. The specific heat capacity of water is 4,200 Joules per kilogram of water per degree Celsius. It we have the temperature rise(C), weight or volume of water(1 liter = 1Kg) and time then we can calculate the Joules and the watts, 1 Joule = 1 watt-second.

So 1 degree C rise in 1 liter of water = 4200 Joules, 4200 J = 4200 watt-seconds (watt=V x I) x time(s). So knowing Joules and time gives us watts and if we know watts and V we get I, or watts and I we get V, however this is a mean or average value. Thus with a thermistor measuring the temperature change in C, an RTC measuring real time and then either V or I we get a fairly accurate watt(power)/Joule(energy) calorimeter. This is where a microcomputer really shines to take all the measurements, do all the calculations and display them for us.

I should note water is used because it can absorb a great deal of energy, more so than most materials, however other materials could be used. The amount of energy to be measured and the range of measurement should be considered in the setup.

Regards


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  verpies
Re: Captainloz Video 9 (showing COP = 2) replication. « Reply #74 on: 2020-10-05, 00:54:47 »

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Quote from: Allcanadian on 2020-10-05, 00:12:37
I once built a bomb calorimeter which works well. I wrapped the resistor leads in fiberglass tape as high heat insulation and stuffed it in sealed a metal tube. This was then placed in an insulated foam container of water with a 10K thermistor to measure the temperature. The specific heat capacity of water is 4,200 Joules per kilogram of water per degree Celsius. It we have the temperature rise(C), weight or volume of water(1 liter = 1Kg) and time then we can calculate the Joules and the watts, 1 Joule = 1 watt-second.
A bomb calorimeter is an excellent method to measure the output energy.
However, a bomb calorimeter is a poor method to measure the instantaneous output power (because of the long delays involved*).  For faster responses, the thermal insulation must be low (low mass and low heat capacity, too).

Finally, a resistive bomb calorimeter is an unsuitable method for measuring the input power and input energy. (the light bulb, too).


* Compare that to the sub-second responsiveness of the incandescent lightbulb.
   
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